Dawn of Tradeoffs

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Lag
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Dawn of Tradeoffs

Postby Lag » Fri 14 Aug, 2020 10:18 am

There is an increasing trend in the balance patches and game design which I wanted to address and talk about: the units/upgrades with no trade-offs.
An example of a good trade-off is the Heretic squad: if you upgrade it with Grenade launchers - weapons very powerful for dealing with a certain type of unit, you lose the Tic's melee prowess (and the suicide ability which would help them very easily keep safe). Another good example is the Banshees getting damage reduction along with the speed boost when their fleet ability is activated - it's for tying stuff up, not for insta-killing armies. Another good example are the Guardsmen: they are cheap to reinforce but their damage is so-so, their aim is off (damage will be dealt but not focused onto member-by-member basis but distributed so that model drops are less likely), they don't burst damage like Storms but have to stand and fire, and most importantly - they are slow compared to most other t1 units and are easy to bleed models if caught out of position. Also, they have many models and it is difficult for them to fully take cover.

So my the first part of my issue is units not having weak spots. I'll give you a few examples:

Rangers:
-can cloak, can fleet, can knock-back. Their strong spot is supposed to be their range and damage, while their weak spot is supposed to be their mobility and getting caught. With fleet and knock-back the getting caught part becomes pretty obsolete and the best you can hope for is that Eldar is looking elsewhere. This all for a power price of "full upgrade" which is significantly less than a full Scout upgrade. This is why people go for 10 rangers squads and actually win games.

Sluggas:
They are already powerful, the t2 ability makes them insane. They are a T1 melee unit, they are supposed to be strong in melee but to bleed until they reach their target. They are supposed to be brutes, not gods of chasing. I understand the need to give them a new ability for the Elite crowd to be excited about something, but a ranged damage reduction + speed + NO penalty to damage whatsoever?

Inq Stormtroopers:
Nade launchers great for range, still got lasguns for dealing with moving targets. They literally snipe down heroes charging at them. Also, they do burst damage (just like storms) meaning they can unload all their damage in a second and then spend 3/4 seconds running away from damage. There is a reason GM, with their firing pattern are t1 units and IG Storms are t2.

Brother Captain:
Starting ability which reduces bleed and increases movement speed for a faction which doesn't bleed and moves slowly has a cooldown low enough that you can use it twice in the starting fight. Is there any punishment for using it in a bad time?

The second part of my issue is giving units survivability abilities when they are supposed to bleed. The game is, as any other strategy game, designed to have the following tradeoff: investing a lot in early game gives you earl pressure but units which are not supposed to scale insanely well compared to the high-tech units which come in late but own everything. So investing a lot into early game should be punishable. I'll give you an example:

1. DA and INQ Storms getting models that reduce damage makes them bleed less. Why? That boils down the Eldar to only having Shees bleeding, while GK having little to bleed come t2.

2. Hormas and Termas getting 2 for 1 models. No real bleed remaining in t2.

3. Sluggas already mentioned.

I can go in more detail and talk about other examples but I guess this is enough to get my message across. Obviously I might be missing something.

Thoughts?
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Shroom
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Re: Dawn of Tradeoffs

Postby Shroom » Sat 15 Aug, 2020 11:27 am

Lag wrote:Brother Captain:
Starting ability which reduces bleed and increases movement speed for a faction which doesn't bleed and moves slowly has a cooldown low enough that you can use it twice in the starting fight. Is there any punishment for using it in a bad time?


dunno if youve checked the changelogs, but wath really isnt what it used to be, it increases damage resistance by 10%, not much. it increases speed by 0.25, barely noticeable. in fact its cooldown was lowered specifically because of that, it used to have a cooldown of 80s.
Last edited by Dark Riku on Sat 15 Aug, 2020 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: clean up
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Dark Riku
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Re: Dawn of Tradeoffs

Postby Dark Riku » Sat 15 Aug, 2020 11:05 pm

Be constructive or do not reply at all.
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Shroom
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Re: Dawn of Tradeoffs

Postby Shroom » Sun 16 Aug, 2020 4:00 am

Dark Riku wrote:Be constructive or do not reply at all.

Ok. Lag if you're losing to sniper spam in 3v3s then you're doing something very wrong, git gud. Like that riku?
RedReVenge
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Re: Dawn of Tradeoffs

Postby RedReVenge » Sun 16 Aug, 2020 4:52 am

Lag wrote:
Rangers:
-can cloak, can fleet, can knock-back. Their strong spot is supposed to be their range and damage, while their weak spot is supposed to be their mobility and getting caught. With fleet and knock-back the getting caught part becomes pretty obsolete and the best you can hope for is that Eldar is looking elsewhere. This all for a power price of "full upgrade" which is significantly less than a full Scout upgrade. This is why people go for 10 rangers squads and actually win games.



Heads up, this game is balanced for 1v1. Your complaint about Rangers seems to be stemming from 3v3? I haven't see a game where mass ranger dominated in a 1v1.

I think you have misidentified the weakness to rangers. In DOW2, Rangers are supposed to be "elite". They are mobile, fast, and high damage. Their weakness is their cost and battlefield presence. If your opponent is investing several funds into mass rangers, than you can easily outtech them. Rangers cost 20 power base and 40 power to be upgraded with defensive stealth options. Mass rangers is what? 3-4? That's 60-80 power minimum... Just rush your light vehicle.

I believe both sluggas and stormtrooper grenaders are getting nerfed/ adjusted.

RR
RedReVenge
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Re: Dawn of Tradeoffs

Postby RedReVenge » Sun 16 Aug, 2020 4:53 am

Lag wrote:
2. Hormas and Termas getting 2 for 1 models. No real bleed remaining in t2.

Thoughts?


Tyranids T1 units don't scale well after T1 in 3v3 matches. You're better off suiciding your units (Horms) because their upkeep is so high. I don't see this as a problem. Please explain.
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Toilailee
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Re: Dawn of Tradeoffs

Postby Toilailee » Sun 16 Aug, 2020 9:28 pm

Lag wrote:Sluggas:
They are already powerful, the t2 ability makes them insane. They are a T1 melee unit, they are supposed to be strong in melee but to bleed until they reach their target. They are supposed to be brutes, not gods of chasing. I understand the need to give them a new ability for the Elite crowd to be excited about something, but a ranged damage reduction + speed + NO penalty to damage whatsoever?


Umm wut? Swamp em has existed since retail AND it used to give them suppression immunity on top of damage reduction, the ability was nerfed in elite.
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