GK Global Silence

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
User avatar
Raffa
Level 4
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue 30 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm
Location: England

GK Global Silence

Postby Raffa » Mon 21 Apr, 2014 8:09 am

Have been annoyed by it before but really culminated yesterday. TL;DR my conclusion is this is outrageously OP. The reasons are:

1. It is an "I win" button for large engagements very similar to how Call Da Boyz is in retail. If the enemy has committed to an engagement and relies on even one ability and he cannot use it, he has lost and is going to bleed hard if he has units in melee. And when GK has terminators...

2. It takes player skill out of the equation during engagements and simply becomes who has tougher units/more burst damage.

3. It lasts 15 seconds. This has got to be an oversight.

4. It costs 175 Red, for an ability which for instance makes Eldar especially nearly useless, and therefore has wipe potential on a par with a nuke if the Eldar player has already engaged and cannot pull off any abilities.

5. This is a bad one. It can be used to trap terminators. In theory you could say this is an intention but with WATH speedy TELEPORTING GK terminators yours are well and truly suicide against a GK player. A sorcerer cannot Warp them out, a Libby cannot Gate them out. Come on. Again player skill goes out of the equation which is why I really don't like this ability.

6. I should of used BC in the 2v2 tournament. Yes it is that good. A sorcerer becomes a low-hp, low dps bit of uselessness on demand, a lictor is an uncloaked low hp bit of uselessness.

7. (2v2 and 3v3 concern) Multiple sad GK players with no lives can abuse this to win every engagement for every T2 onwards fight.

8. (2v2 and 3v3 concern) It affects ALL enemy players, pretty much therefore any close (or not...) engagement that happens in the duration goes in favour of the GK team.

Just ditch it, add another global - or make it something you can wait out, for ex. with a 5-6 second duration.
Kithrixx
Level 2
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon 28 Oct, 2013 10:40 am
Contact:

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Kithrixx » Mon 21 Apr, 2014 8:20 am

Could also make it work on the person who cast it. I mean, they have the advantage of knowing when it's going to be active, but at least it's something.
ChesterSnapdragon
Level 0
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat 11 Jan, 2014 10:41 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby ChesterSnapdragon » Mon 21 Apr, 2014 8:47 am

It should at least mute all in game sound. It is a silence after all
User avatar
HandSome SoddiNg
Level 3
Posts: 324
Joined: Wed 16 Oct, 2013 5:57 am

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby HandSome SoddiNg » Mon 21 Apr, 2014 12:11 pm

I agree with 12 Seconds Global silence being arguably long . But,it takes 175 Red to use it and quite a long CD ,think its 1 minute. Dark-Exo finishes followed by COA can literally screw up engagements and win in GK's favor.

If i recall correctly,Dark-exo doesn't WORK for GLOBAL Abilities. You can still use CS global teleport to save Termies and units out of the fray. Dark-Exo only affects Heroes abilities & Energy intensive units for that duration. However,Dark-exo is an underrated global that i seldom seen nowadays being utilize effectively ,a nerf on its duration would be reasonable exchange for shorter CD?
Batman V Superman : Dawn of Justice 2016
Wonder Woman/Justice League 2017 Movies, WB/DC bring it ON !!
User avatar
Raffa
Level 4
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue 30 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Raffa » Mon 21 Apr, 2014 1:38 pm

It is 15 seconds, not 12.

1 min is not a long cooldown considering the inevitable red you rack up from the engagement you won, the 15 second duration while it's on cooldown, and the enemy retreat, reinforcement, etc.. Hence why I Win globals are so insane.

It is underrated because the playerbase for GK is not high, let alone players who actually can micro the race.
User avatar
Forestradio
Level 5
Posts: 1157
Joined: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 5:09 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Forestradio » Mon 21 Apr, 2014 3:52 pm

Both this and Canticle are broken. And I main Grey Knights.

Would be nice to see ability denial, but allow for some counterplay by the enemy player

The cooldown is 3 minutes.

Raffa wrote:2. It takes player skill out of the equation during engagements and simply becomes who has tougher units/more burst damage.


That's the crux of the problem.
User avatar
Commissar Yarrick
Level 3
Posts: 235
Joined: Sat 16 Feb, 2013 9:49 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Commissar Yarrick » Wed 23 Apr, 2014 8:04 pm

I agree completely with raffa
Image
User avatar
MaxPower
Contributor
Posts: 614
Joined: Mon 11 Feb, 2013 10:18 pm
Location: Leipzig

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby MaxPower » Wed 23 Apr, 2014 10:48 pm

And I agree with Yarrick agreeing with Raffa.
"A fortress is built with blood and toil. Only by blood and toil may it be taken." Leman Russ
Vapor
Level 3
Posts: 427
Joined: Wed 27 Mar, 2013 9:03 am

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Vapor » Wed 23 Apr, 2014 11:05 pm

Maybe it could be reworked to last a much shorter length of time (a few seconds) but cost significantly less red. So you could use it to prevent a key ability from being used at a crucial time, but not remove abilities from the engagement altogether.

Or just replace it with a different global.
Follow my stream! twitch.tv/frozenvapor100
User avatar
Black Relic
Level 4
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon 29 Jul, 2013 3:05 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Black Relic » Wed 23 Apr, 2014 11:14 pm

fv100 wrote:Maybe it could be reworked to last a much shorter length of time (a few seconds) but cost significantly less red. So you could use it to prevent a key ability from being used at a crucial time, but not remove abilities from the engagement altogether.

Or just replace it with a different global.


I was thinking about maybe getting the global replaced. And the Global i came up with was the Commisar Lord's Basalisk Flare. To help melee squads get into combat without taking too many loses.

Or the global is change to the all units have no energy regen. and abilities cost more. So it wont be a complete I win at all. Heretics will be able to doomblast or worship. Sentinal will be able to stomp. etc
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
User avatar
Broodwich
Level 4
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri 12 Apr, 2013 10:04 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Broodwich » Thu 24 Apr, 2014 12:40 am

There are other globals that are an I win the engagement for similar red. I do think it's off, especially in team games, but not by as much as you're saying
Fas est ab hoste doceri
SirSid
Level 2
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun 11 Aug, 2013 6:39 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby SirSid » Fri 25 Apr, 2014 11:10 pm

Yha this is something that is deffinatly still under the radar it's very strong , to strong in fact.

Also i still have to bring up again the strike squad / intorceptors / GK libby / cancale of absoloution combo as well.

It's just simply WAY to strong once u get use to microing the SS unit to provide energy shots to your other units u end up with basicaly unlimited energy on units that are powerfull whit the resorce.

Iv gotten use to it now and im finding all kinds of stuff it is powerfull for. Hell even capping i can use my intorceptors jump right after a fight to go cap a point , then set up my SS unit capping in line with the ceptors. Once the intorceptors are done capping they run by the SS get a secound shot of energy jump again to de cap a advanced point , then jump back , then get a energey shot again then jump INTO COMBAT on low energy and be abel to jump out again very soon dew to cancale of absoloution. It's very scary.
Atlas

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Atlas » Fri 25 Apr, 2014 11:42 pm

Wow this might actually encourage me to try GK a bit.
User avatar
Raffa
Level 4
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue 30 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Raffa » Sat 26 Apr, 2014 10:40 am

Basically you end up with one of two scenarios, depending on the retard-level of the GK player.

Retard Padawan: he uses it before an engagement starts and you have time to back off and wait it out. That means you concede whatever ground you had (in larger gamemodes this regularly means for ex. a contested VP and letting the other team dig in there) because if you try to fight you are almost certain to lose, since suppression teams do not control GK well at all you have little hope of stalling it out.

Retard Senior Jedi: he uses it just as you've committed to an engagement and all of a sudden you have no shotgun blast/battle cry/heal/powerful sweep/ASM jump/merciless strike/emperor's fist/smoke grenade/librarian abilities/frag assault/charge/assault cannon barrage - and that's just some SM ones off the top of my head. Just imagine what it's like for IG who can't repair, or Eldar with their dependence on abilities.
User avatar
Cheekie Monkie
Level 3
Posts: 362
Joined: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 2:58 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Sat 26 Apr, 2014 11:00 am

Raffa wrote:Just imagine what it's like for IG who can't repair,


IG can't repair?!?!

I guess this retard padawan is soon going to be promoted to retard master!
Playing truth or dare with Diomedes: You dare? YOU DARE?!
Tinder with Diomedes: THINK YOU ARE MY MATCH?!
User avatar
BaptismByLoli
Level 4
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri 28 Feb, 2014 8:20 am
Location: The Place Where Wishes Come True

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby BaptismByLoli » Sat 26 Apr, 2014 11:36 am

Raffa wrote:Retard Senior Jedi


Retard Jedi Knight :ugeek:

Cheekie Monkie wrote:
Raffa wrote:Just imagine what it's like for IG who can't repair,


IG can't repair?!?!

I guess this retard padawan is soon going to be promoted to retard master!


Repair is an ability. Dark Excommunication would therefore negate the use of repair in-battle.
Image
User avatar
Forestradio
Level 5
Posts: 1157
Joined: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 5:09 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Forestradio » Sat 26 Apr, 2014 3:34 pm

Raffa wrote:Retard Senior Jedi: he uses it just as you've committed to an engagement and all of a sudden you have no shotgun blast/battle cry/heal/powerful sweep/ASM jump/merciless strike/emperor's fist/smoke grenade/librarian abilities/frag assault/charge/assault cannon barrage - and that's just some SM ones off the top of my head. Just imagine what it's like for IG who can't repair, or Eldar with their dependence on abilities.


Also fucks over chaos: no doomblast, no sweeping doom, no worship, etc

Either change it to a different global or make it castable on one squad only. That way you choose between the hero, the jump unit, the utility unit, etc
User avatar
Lost Son of Nikhel
Contributor
Posts: 636
Joined: Wed 13 Feb, 2013 4:26 pm
Location: The Warp

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Sat 26 Apr, 2014 6:10 pm

Radio the Forest wrote:Also fucks over chaos: no doomblast, no sweeping doom, no worship, etc

Either change it to a different global or make it castable on one squad only. That way you choose between the hero, the jump unit, the utility unit, etc

IMHO this is the best solution. Also (even if the balance is focused in 1vs1) could balance a bit the ability in teamgames.
"Pater, peccavi in caelum et coram te; iam non sum dignus vocari filius tuus". Dixit autem pater: "manducemus et epulemur, quia hic filius meus mortuus erat et revixit, perierat et inventus est"

There will be no forgiveness for us.
SirSid
Level 2
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun 11 Aug, 2013 6:39 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby SirSid » Sat 26 Apr, 2014 11:57 pm

What about if u target the ability on 1 of your GK units and then for the duration abilitys can't be used in a very small AOE around the unit or from any range against that unit.

That would mean u could use it to get a large buff to 1 unit however the other player could react to the situation with other units . also grenades would still be usabel or any ability against other units.
User avatar
Cyris
Level 4
Posts: 649
Joined: Fri 22 Mar, 2013 10:22 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Cyris » Sun 27 Apr, 2014 12:09 am

I've never personally felt this ability was too strong, but I largely play 1v1 and the Red price is sure steep. I like a bunch of the ideas floated in this thread for changes to the ability, assuming they are paired with a Red reduction.

Assuming a cost reduction:
AOE, like flare
Single target
Buff an allies GK unit to emminate the aura of silence for X seconds

Each would be neat, avoid 3v3 madness, and make the ability more usable in 1v1.
L0thar
Level 2
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed 29 Jan, 2014 7:54 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby L0thar » Mon 28 Apr, 2014 9:09 am

I agree with others in this thread - this ability takes away to much control from the opposing player.

Now probably majority of the abilities take away some control, from shotgun blast to levitation field. But their scope is quite limited. Both excommunication and canticle are doing too much.

The concept fits GK nicely, so I'm for keeping them, but in a somewhat limited form.

(another a little over the top ability would be terrify...)
Myrdal
Admin
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon 15 Apr, 2013 1:47 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Myrdal » Mon 28 Apr, 2014 3:23 pm

Aye, I also think it needs a rework. It's essentially a double check when used, too severly limiting your foe's options.
I like the idea of having it as an aoe around a friendly unit, especially for defensive purposes. It will be an absolute nightmare for terminators though, but then there's sm libby gate and that blue fairy dust, chaos worship (save nurgle) and GK libby has shrouding and is about to get some new goodies.
Also, seeing as it probably tops the list of most annoying abilities I don't see the point having it on CoA as well (energy regen alone makes it very strong).
SirSid
Level 2
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun 11 Aug, 2013 6:39 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby SirSid » Tue 29 Apr, 2014 1:05 am

Actualy cryis it`s 1v1 that im primarly complaining about it. Yes it dose coast alot of red in a 1v1 however since the battels in 1v1 are so much more important lossing a battel ( and ususaly a squade ) at the wrong time simply ends the game. It`s great in team games but it really shines out as broken in 1v1
User avatar
Caeltos
Moderator
Posts: 1070
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:49 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Caeltos » Wed 30 Apr, 2014 1:24 am

Valid proposition and justified points.

Bonus points even for being civil and constructive.

Will be looked into in the future. Can't promise it'll get done for the next update, but I'll give it a try.
L0thar
Level 2
Posts: 99
Joined: Wed 29 Jan, 2014 7:54 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby L0thar » Wed 30 Apr, 2014 8:48 am

hakon wrote:Also, seeing as it probably tops the list of most annoying abilities I don't see the point having it on CoA as well (energy regen alone makes it very strong).


Maybe the canticle could be changed that in addition to energy regen of allies it would also drain energy of enemies.

It would have similar effect - less abilities from opposing player, but it's much less severe than current full stop. It also allows for some counterplay and decision making (prioritising abilities).

Caeltos wrote:Valid proposition and justified points.

Bonus points even for being civil and constructive.

Will be looked into in the future. Can't promise it'll get done for the next update, but I'll give it a try.


Great!
Myrdal
Admin
Posts: 347
Joined: Mon 15 Apr, 2013 1:47 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Myrdal » Thu 01 May, 2014 1:33 pm

Not a bad idea with energy drain imo. We'll see what Caeltos decides.
User avatar
Raffa
Level 4
Posts: 580
Joined: Tue 30 Jul, 2013 1:41 pm
Location: England

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Raffa » Thu 01 May, 2014 2:12 pm

AOE energy drain seems like the best solution. Have given it some thought so yeah here's a suggestion:

Dark Excommunication (new)
Cost: 150 Red.
Duration: 10 seconds.
Area: same size as WSE Phase Shift.
Rate: Drains increasing amounts of energy over time. Starts at 3/s for first 2 seconds, then 6/s for the next 3 seconds, and finally 18/s for the next 5 seconds. Total of 114 energy drained. Does not affect allied units.

The biggest issues with Dark Excommunication needed addressing first. They predominately concerned teamgames, where its use for an engagement in any given engagement could drastically affect both that one and a simultaneous one miles away. The clearest solution appeared to be changing it to an AOE, however the AOE still had to be quite sizable as we don't want the global becoming redundant all of a sudden, without making it actually 'large' to prevent blanket covering a big chunk of the map.

The other major issue is simply totally denying any ability use. I don't think anyone disagrees that this is a flat out 'I win' button right now, so the best solution appeared to be an AOE energy drain. Thought about making it deny all ability use by one unit, but this can still be extrapolated into an 'I win' if the army relies on said unit, for ex. Warp Spiders not being able to teleport at all even if they have conserved energy for multiple jumps (as anyone who is decent with Eldar should) can basically be a free wipe if they are out of position and relying on their teleport. It's totally taking away the safety net even if the other player has been careful to keep Spider energy high, which is not ok. It's also not OK to flat-out deny all ability use simply because this makes certain units and heroes much more desirable against GK independent of the nuances of each MU. For ex. this doesn't really affect certain Hive Tyrants or RAs, but is ballistic against a Sorcerer esp. if he relies on Daemon Shield or if his biggest counter-initiation against Interceptors is Chains of Torment.

The thing I really like about Phase Shift AOE size for this global is it can be played around - if the GK player has good positioning, esp. a flank in place, he can deny you a good space to move into to avoid the energy drain. If you fail to move he only needs to keep your army relatively static (*hint* this has brilliant synergy with the instant knockdown-jump of Interceptors) and potentially without even engaging he can render your army useless, then move in for the kill.

However with a max. energy drain of 18/s your reserves are going to start plummeting if you try to stay still and wait it out. You will usually be able to concede ground without much loss of energy, but you also have the alternative of having most abilities available for the first few seconds of the fight, so you can really try and force the issue and gain a major advantage early on (e.g. tying up the annoying as hell stormtroopers with jump units), although of course the longer this fight goes on the bigger the GK's advantage gets. Kinda similar to Bloodlust actually (tho very few players use this global, so I won't judge if you don't know how it works :p).
User avatar
Forestradio
Level 5
Posts: 1157
Joined: Sun 13 Oct, 2013 5:09 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Forestradio » Thu 01 May, 2014 2:20 pm

Would the cooldown remain at 3 minutes? Or drop slightly?

Seems like a solid idea that goes along with GK race design and has strong synergy with their strategies.
User avatar
Dark Riku
Level 5
Posts: 3082
Joined: Sun 03 Feb, 2013 10:48 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 01 May, 2014 2:55 pm

Did you consider Orks? Because it seems like a very useless ability versus them.
User avatar
Broodwich
Level 4
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri 12 Apr, 2013 10:04 pm

Re: GK Global Silence

Postby Broodwich » Thu 01 May, 2014 4:12 pm

Yeah there are plenty of abilities that do not require energy, and a drain would still permit use of everything provided they started with energy. If the red cost was significantly reduced this might be worth it but at 150 I just don't see it as viable. This would actually be a good idea for another gk global instead of the hell fury

A reduction of the time and change to an aoe rather than global would be best
Fas est ab hoste doceri

Return to “Balance Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests