Bottom Tier Heroes

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Tex
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Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Tex » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 4:13 pm

This isn't a waaah waaah thread.

Tell me who you think are the worst 2 or 3 heroes to use in competitive 1v1 play.

I think Elite has done a lot to help make all heroes somewhat viable, but I still have my bottom of the barrel as well.

With that said, I think a paragraph or two attached to each hero choice would go a long way into helping explain why you think said hero is at the bottom of the barrel.

My three heroes are the Force Commander, Lord Commissar, and the Plague Champion.
I just checked the 1v1 rankings list and it looks like my picks correspond pretty well. (Not so say that the list means everything of course... FC is the 5th most popular pick which means he is getting used by a lot of lower skilled players as well as higher skilled).

FC

I have started a diary (replays..) when I play FC and I am finding him to be far inferior to the apothecary and techmarine. This is of course an internal argument initially, but as a lot of people know, I go by a gut feeling in most circumstances, and this is exactly how I feel.
An example can be found in how much easier he is to approach with melee even though he is definitely a melee counter. I have had a much harder time against jump troops and even normal melee troops since picking up the FC's mantle. Of course, I must admit that this is largely a tier 1 problem, but I think the point here is that in terms of SM, tier 1 really sets the course of the game due to their incredibly power hungry tier 2 (assuming the opponent makes the appropriate moves, forcing the SM to spend in tier 2).
Another example of increased difficulty I'm finding is in dealing with advanced ranged compositions. Now obviously ASM help break this up, but builds that do not include ASM tend to absolutely fall on their faces in my experience. This also happens to be a similar problem for the PC... Snipers and/or setup teams backed up by a bit of ranged fire is truly giving me problems. And yes, I know the stormshield has it's uses, but I'm just not getting full value yet as it actually requires a decent sized army backing it up, meaning your map control goes to hell.

PC

I have also started a diary with the PC. And don't get me wrong, I have found him to be strong in some matchups, and exceedingly strong against orks! The argument here turns internal somewhat, because the other chaos heroes are also exceedingly strong against orks.
I'm finding it almost impossible to deal with snipers of any tier 1 variety and it is also extremely difficult to deal with setup teams. Just like the FC, I feel like I am shackled into using raptors, and as we all know, using raptors in t1 really opens the door for your opponent to get a vehicle against you in tier 2. The other option I have is grenade launchers on heretics, but this really competes with the strength of nurgle worship in tier 1 (the only time that it is truly useful).

LC

I have sunk lots of time previously into this hero. Lately I have been using the inquisitor instead of him when I play IG. I just feel like the LC doesn't do anything better than the LG in his "AOE support" kind of side, and he doesn't do anything better than the Inq in her "stun/snare/wtf" support side.
So basically when I play LC, I usually feel like I'm left over with a support hero who needs to try and be a damage dealer/multiplier.
The problem I'm having here is that I think the "cannot retreat" timer after using an execute on your own guardsmen is a little too long. It is simply too risky to use in most situations. I would love if the buff lasted its full duration, but the ability to retreat would open up 5 seconds earlier.
Also, dealing with overlapping suppression (or even ranged mass) is an absolute nightmare for this hero! It just doesn't seem like he stacks up against the Inq and LG... yet it doesn't feel entirely internal.

Anyway, interested to see some other people's thoughts.
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Torpid
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Torpid » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 5:49 pm

Ha, interestingly I agree completely on your bottom three heroes.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Raffa » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 5:59 pm

Firstly I'd like to ask that this thread stays focussed on these heroes, otherwise it will become a waah waah thread :roll:

The thing is I find these 3 heroes are indeed the weakest in 1v1, but become perfectly viable from 2v2 upwards. For instance the ability to play a laney, cover-to-cover game suits the PC perfectly and allows a clever PC player (me!) to negate his key weakness, manoeuvrability, by not having to expend any units away from the main army on capping duty, which absolutely kills you in 1v1.

The FC is in a peculiar spot because, again, he is very strong in larger gamemodes if you have strong allies who can support a fast tech from you to go teleporter/rapefist or terminator armour. In 1v1 the FC really needs to go for either the safer ranged army, and hope to use him as a counter-initiator in that key T1 phase as you point out. Or SS support for 2tacs, OR put your eggs in one basket and try the very risky ASM who have no Apo heal and IMO are much less viable in t1 as a consequence, even with Battle Cry.

LC honestly man I'm taking your word on that I never face one in 1v1, like everrr.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Magus Magi » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 6:30 pm

Tex wrote: Tell me who you think are the worst 2 or 3 heroes to use in competitive 1v1 play.


Raffa wrote: Firstly I'd like to ask that this thread stays focussed on these heroes, otherwise it will become a waah waah thread :roll:


:?
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Kvek » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 6:35 pm

Magus Magi wrote:
Tex wrote: Tell me who you think are the worst 2 or 3 heroes to use in competitive 1v1 play.


Raffa wrote: Firstly I'd like to ask that this thread stays focussed on these heroes, otherwise it will become a waah waah thread :roll:


:?


Raffa's right, this thread could easily turn into a loltacs up wtf does this have to do here?

I feel the same way about FC and PC, but certainly not the same about LC, so the only thing i will leave here is
bionic eye lolgryns

oh and my winrate jumped up (from 0% to 1%) when i started playing apo.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Magus Magi » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 6:44 pm

I'm just...I can't even...it's so irritating, that it's also funny.

Here you have a thread requesting input. That input is supposed to be prefaced with a short paragraph explaining the poster's opinion in brief. In essence, the ground rules include a means for the thread readers to evaluate each opinion expressed by requiring an accompanying, succinct, rationale.

Immediately, two of the first four people to post advocate limiting the discussion in an effort to prevent people from expressing their opinions.

Hence: :?
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Torpid » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 6:45 pm

Yeah, the LC is really ogryn dependent I find. Recently ogryns have been getting quite a few buffs. They are due to get a req cost reduction next patch. Their bone 'ead's price was recently reduced to 25 power and not 30 and there's still the additional regen while in combat that they got fairly early on in elite and that doesn't exist in retail. Maybe another ogryn buff will be really help out the LC.

The LC is definitely the most contentious on that list. You see unlike the IQ he can cause a lot of bleed to enemies considering he has 5.5 speed and is quite tanky alongside having the highest damage pistol in the game excluding the inferno pistol. Unlike the LG who bleeds enemies more he isn't half as vulnerable to jump units due to his power sword upgrade.

Still in general the LC seems to just exacerbate the boons of IG and not do much to prevent their weaknesses. Layered suppression is problematic for him which is a problem of IG. He also struggles against huge ranged armies considering he doesn't have the ability to neutralise certain squads that IQ can do and unlike the LG his army can't afford to soak up the damage/take it head-on. However he has really good early pressure (something IG have anyway) and he's really really strong against melee (something IG is good against anyway), he also can deal with walkers pretty easily (again something IG is good at doing anyway).

His main saving grace really is his early game pressure and flare.

Overall I find he is the weakest IG hero and I don't find IG particularly strong as it is, hence why he's in my bottom three.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Kvek » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 7:02 pm

Magus Magi wrote:I'm just...I can't even...it's so irritating, that it's also funny.

Here you have a thread requesting input. That input is supposed to be prefaced with a short paragraph explaining the poster's opinion in brief. In essence, the ground rules include a means for the thread readers to evaluate each opinion expressed by requiring an accompanying, succinct, rationale.

Immediately, two of the first four people to post advocate limiting the discussion in an effort to prevent people from expressing their opinions.

Hence: :?


no, they just don't want it to become a stupid fanboy or somekind of a weird thread.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Magus Magi » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 7:07 pm

Kvek...read my post and try to separate yourself from whatever subjective dislike you have of me. Then read the original post from Tex, and the subsequent posts by Raffa and yourself.

Everything I said is accurate, and both of your posts were perfectly out of line with the spirit in which a thread of this kind is created.

I've said enough about this. I wouldn't have said anything at all if it weren't such a pervasive problem on here.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Tex » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 7:18 pm

He's right Kvek/Raffa.

Opinions are always (almost always?) allowed/welcomed in my threads.

I want to see if anyone has other hero picks and if they can support those arguments.

It is simply my opinion that these 3 heroes are at the bottom of the barrel, with the LC being the top pick of those 3.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Torpid » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 7:28 pm

Magus Magi wrote:Kvek...read my post and try to separate yourself from whatever subjective dislike you have of me. Then read the original post from Tex, and the subsequent posts by Raffa and yourself.

Everything I said is accurate, and both of your posts were perfectly out of line with the spirit in which a thread of this kind is created.

I've said enough about this. I wouldn't have said anything at all if it weren't such a pervasive problem on here.


This.

However, given that we want to take this approach I expect no moaning/whining/ad hominems/rhetorical non-sequiturs/crying/profanities/generally fallacious retorts after I inevitably post a 2000 word essay on why the apo isn't UP. :geek:
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Asmon » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 7:57 pm

I think that those 3 heroes have one awesome global that can win games if correctly timed. But timings require commanders to be truly mastered hence it evades who do not main them and leads to your conclusion Tex.

Acutally every issue that you raised is mostly about T1 play, which is when you haven't yet got enough red to use globals.

I have no hero to put on your list. I certainly think PC should be in, but FC shouldn't. Battlecry ftw.

Also +1 Mathis for keeping calm despite the absurdity that fell upon you.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Black Relic » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 9:04 pm

I agree on the FC with Tex. Snipers is such a big pain for me when they are up. It also seems (to me at least) when i am not able to initiate an engagement properly my opponent as an overwhelming advantage over me. Since my poor scouts will usually be the first they target. The only wargear "combo" that seem to be to more useful in a 1v1 is thunder hammer\power sword, armor of alacrity and battle stranded. Gives the tankyness, the anti-melee build (exclude walkers from this) and the support which the FC can be known for. Stack battle standard with battle cry and For the Emperor (which i always though i should be a damage increase not solely a ranged damage increase) and those plasma gun Tacs really really hurt. The powerfist is a great piece of wargear but i find it to under perform when there is no vehicles around.

Just so people know what i open with. 2 scouts (normally both with shotguns when there is no infiltrated unit out), Tacs and 2 ASM. Sometimes i am t2 when i purchase my second ASM squad.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 9:18 pm

No BC in the bottom 3 seems rather weird to me.
He takes the last spot in my list anyways.

And yes, I know I don't have an explanation (cba atm), I just wanted to share.
(and raise interest?)
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Torpid » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 9:40 pm

Black Relic wrote: Stack battle standard with battle cry and For the Emperor (which i always though i should be a damage increase not solely a ranged damage increase) and those..."


For the Emperor in Elite is a raw damage increase of 25%, not exclusively ranged damage, however it grants no defensive buff anymore.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 9:45 pm

Apart of snipers and suppression, IMHO the PC suffers a bit more in map control/capping power compared to the other Chaos commanders.

PC have the turret for zone denial and the Nurgle Shrine, which is a good reinforce in field structure which helps to retain map control, but at the same time reduces the PC capping power because you need a heretic squad to allow reinforcement and maximize the Shrine healing power.

The Nurgle worshipp is great to keep some map control, but isn't superior to other worshipps, it's only different. Khorne worshipp helps to repositionate your troops to avoid taking unnecessary damage, which under different circunstances could be simply forced to retreat. Tzeentch do the same, except if there is a enemy detector in field.

Other possible reason is his worshipp having no effects in non-daemon vehicles, which as the same time being not very usefull in non-daemon infantry squads in T2 and T3.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not an IG player, but I feel the problem with Execute is the power of the own ability. It's 100% damage for 15 seconds in one of the most powerful shooty races. Not only Ogryns, I fear the brutal damage that Karskins could do with this buff.

IIRC LC have the Flare ability, which in combination with spotters is suppose to counter ranged blobs easily. Overlapping suppression could be a more tricky, through.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Atlas » Wed 26 Mar, 2014 11:53 pm

While I really wouldn't call them "bottom" tier, I feel that I see very few Warp Spider Exarchs compared to Warlocks and Farseers. I can't really explain why this is but I do wonder if there's an internal balance problem there :/

Still, I don't really see it since I think the WSE has some really amazing wargears but idk I hardly see them.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Tex » Thu 27 Mar, 2014 12:27 am

I think the reason you don't see many WSE players these days is because he struggles against SM/Chaos/Nids more than the other eldar heroes, and those factions seem to be quite popular, especially in tournament games.
His lack of AOE or suppression (or in his case, something to facilitate AOE) in tier 1, and his inability to control ASM's are the main reasons I am citing for this.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Black Relic » Thu 27 Mar, 2014 1:52 am

That Torpid Gamer wrote:
Black Relic wrote: Stack battle standard with battle cry and For the Emperor (which i always though i should be a damage increase not solely a ranged damage increase) and those..."


For the Emperor in Elite is a raw damage increase of 25%, not exclusively ranged damage, however it grants no defensive buff anymore.



OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH YEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I did not know this! Right on! FC a BEAST now lol. Just cuz he is.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Thu 27 Mar, 2014 12:38 pm

personally, i find him kind of boring to play. i know he's a pain in the ass to play against and his main contribution is himself, not abilities. he shoots stuff from cover, ties things up, and teleports in and use an ability.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Helios » Thu 27 Mar, 2014 3:37 pm

Tex wrote:Also, dealing with overlapping suppression (or even ranged mass) is an absolute nightmare for this hero! It just doesn't seem like he stacks up against the Inq and LG... yet it doesn't feel entirely internal.


I've been saying this ever since Spotter smoke grenade was nerfed from 90% to 50%. I recommended making it something like 33% so it isn't something that is almost exactly the same as flare. Carapace armor really doesn't cut it especially since now you have to micro the squad you executed in case it gets focused because now you can't simply click X to make then retreat while manuevering your Commie to not eat heavy bolter in the face. Also you have to pretty much use both spotter abilities to knock down one (usually the forward suppresion squad) then smoke the back one. That's considerably more micro than just taking one jump troop, tying up the forward squad near instantly then just retreating when in trouble with the touch of a button.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Arbit » Thu 27 Mar, 2014 6:19 pm

Maybe a bit off topic here, but I think the LC would be more interesting to play if his execute ability was more central to his play. Right now it takes 50 energy (sacrificing 125 HP essentially) and it's very risky to use because you end up with a commie that is easier to force off which in turn makes it easier to focus the executed squad. Reducing the energy cost to 15-20 energy, reducing the damage buff to ~25%, and reducing the length of the ability and nonretreatable status to ~10 seconds from 15 (possibly increasing the cooldown so it's not spammable) would broaden its usefulness as a retreat breaker and shooty buff. Right now it seems like it's used mostly to boost lascannons or the occasional retreat breaker where he just happens to be in the right position and can afford to sacrifice the energy.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Thu 27 Mar, 2014 6:56 pm

Dark Riku wrote:No BC in the bottom 3 seems rather weird to me.
He takes the last spot in my list anyways.

And yes, I know I don't have an explanation (cba atm), I just wanted to share.
(and raise interest?)


I'd say BC is a hard call, given the fact that he's the only hero for GK.

It becomes difficult to reconcile whether any underpoweredness is a GK problem or a BC problem.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 27 Mar, 2014 6:59 pm

Cheekie Monkie wrote:I'd say BC is a hard call, given the fact that he's the only hero for GK.

It becomes difficult to reconcile whether any underpoweredness is a GK problem or a BC problem.
You kinda can't judge a commander's effectiveness without the corresponding race though.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby appiah4 » Fri 28 Mar, 2014 12:22 pm

Honestly I was very surprissed to scroll down and see FC top the list; he's my favorite hero and the one I use to best effect. I feel he has abilities and wargear to respond to any situation, but kind of sucks before you kit him out. That costs a lot of power, but is very rewarding. My main gripe with the FC? He is easy to control. Unless you get the Iron Halo, it becomes annoyingly easy to get tossed around like a ragdoll due to lots of enemy shenanigans. If you have the Iron Halo your energy goes so fast that you usually can't use any bells and whistles. Battle Cry solves the problem, I know, but good luck engaging anything with that enabled. The Thunder Hammer tracking special + Battle Cry combo is pretty much a must for the force commander, and the Thunder Hammer is (justly) very pricy..

I feel the Apo is actually the low tier commander in the SM army simply for the fact that he's very easy to single out and kill or force off, which immediately cripples the effectiveness of the rest of the army.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Kvek » Sat 29 Mar, 2014 7:56 am

FC is not easily countered when he gets iron halo? ever heard of suppression?
oh, and apo can be killed easily, unless you are chaos and he got the sanguine chainsword=who needs an army when u have apo and raffa knows this VERY WELL
oh, and he makes the entire SM army invincible in t1 (unless ur fighting orks or nids)
and with rites asms are pretty much unbeatable, and in t2 it gets even worse with them and he has much more than that
apo is one of the top heroes, alongside techmarine
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Toilailee » Sat 29 Mar, 2014 2:54 pm

In my humble opinion FC is perfectly competitive in 1v1, but not so much in team games. And BC should be on the list.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Lt. Ekul » Sun 30 Mar, 2014 5:37 am

Tex wrote:I think the reason you don't see many WSE players these days is because he struggles against SM/Chaos/Nids more than the other eldar heroes, and those factions seem to be quite popular, especially in tournament games.
His lack of AOE or suppression (or in his case, something to facilitate AOE) in tier 1, and his inability to control ASM's are the main reasons I am citing for this.


I think this is pretty accurate. I've never actually seen any WSE mains apart from myself. I wouldn't call him bottom-tier, but I do think that he is probably the weaker of the Eldar heroes. ASMs can wreak havoc even with Banshees to counter-initiate, at least in T1. Come T2 he has Entangle which can be alright against ASM and the like. It's interesting that you should say that FC is one of the weakest 1v1 heroes; I find him to be one of the hardest matchups against WSE, whilst I find the Lictor Alpha, a hero notoriously difficult to deal with, to be not that much of an issue for WSE.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Torpid » Sun 30 Mar, 2014 1:52 pm

SM are tough to deal with as eldar as it is, but I'de take an FC as a foe over an apo/TM any day when I'm playing the WSE.
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Re: Bottom Tier Heroes

Postby Forestradio » Sun 30 Mar, 2014 3:26 pm

Toilailee wrote:In my humble opinion FC is perfectly competitive in 1v1, but not so much in team games. And BC should be on the list.


The only competitive games that I can find of the Brother Captain (not counting Ace of Sword's game vs you cuz that had nemesis focus GKI and broken VA) are interestingly enough vs the FC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s0H5-_nNRA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUx6xm5j ... _OPI3G6Tlw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhgtGj6H ... _OPI3G6Tlw

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