Bottom Tier Heroes

[Torpid]

Oh dear. Sorry Appiah but you're not even worth my time.

[Kvek]

How's fucking with jump squads even relevant? Jumping your squads into Devs is just to disrupt them, who cares if he comes in afterwards? You lose your AOE suppression, and his army can move in to fuck you up right away. It's not uncommon to jump a setup team to immediately retreat or pull back from counter-initiation.

To get Libby's inspiration you first need to kill something with him in melee. Good luck with that , f you're counting on it. Actually, if you got the Librarian (and invested in him, LULz) you lost already. Good going. Worst T2 SM investment ever, by a huge margin.

WTF does FC have to do with snipers vs Devastators? Unless you get a teleport pack, which is T3, wtf can he do while the snipers move in, snipe, and move out? Especially vs Eldar Rangers who can Kinetic Pulse him all over? Even the TM with MC Bolter is better against this threat than the FC.
All this logic are fallacies, FC has no synergy with Devastators whatsoever.

LOL
just LOL
let me get started
jump squads are relevant cus they counter fc's biggest weakness in t1, you jumped the dev squad, now it resetups and suppresses your fc and you cant win the engagement, well played there and dont even say you can jump twice, without the apo heal you cant and if he immediately retreated then its his damn fault and he should lose the entire map or get bashed for it

yeah, because counter initiating with libby and fc is so fucking hard, oh and if your enemy actually kills your libby, the libby alongside that fucking fc who just disrupts everything, and yeah i've got the librarian you sm fanboy because he's not useless and he's great, but thats something you will never admit because you can't micro him for shit or you send him vs lighting claw terminators -,-

i said that he cant get snipers after he got asms, thats just too much investment and you usually dont get away with simply buying 1 sniper and 1 asms
teleport pack is t2, nice SM knowledge? if it wasnt you i would have said its a typo, but since its you....
well, if the snipers are eldar then he has to jump em, if they're not, he should get his own snipers
its such a bad feeling, knowing that you're the only SM main who thinks that libby is viable

and +1 to torpid

[appiah4]

LOL
just LOL
let me get started
jump squads are relevant cus they counter fc's biggest weakness in t1, you jumped the dev squad, now it resetups and suppresses your fc and you cant win the engagement, well played there and dont even say you can jump twice, without the apo heal you cant and if he immediately retreated then its his damn fault and he should lose the entire map or get bashed for it

Reading comprehension. You lack it.

The man argues Devs synergize with FC.
I ask why?
He says FC hels counter jump squads that threaten Devs.
I refute.
You LOL me and argue how well the ASM synergize with FC.

Really? Who the fuck disputed ASM synergizing with the FC?

LOL indeed.

I can only PRESUME that you actually try to argue that FC coming in will give you enough time to resetup your Devastators and blah and blah, which is bullshit because once it's disrupted the enemy will pour all his ranged firepower into them while your FC is busy trying to deal with the asm - The Devastators will, realistically, never re-setup.

As for the Librarian, I have not seen you use it meaningfully even ONCE, and I've played with and against you several times. Yet, you.. Anyway. It's just funny. Watching people defend the Librarian despite having nothing to show for making use of him.

Teleporter being T2; that was not a typo, it was a brain fart on my part.

WTF is your problem anyway? If I hadn't played with you, I'd have taken you for a total tool. Manners, they are important.

[Kvek]

LOL
just LOL
let me get started
jump squads are relevant cus they counter fc's biggest weakness in t1, you jumped the dev squad, now it resetups and suppresses your fc and you cant win the engagement, well played there and dont even say you can jump twice, without the apo heal you cant and if he immediately retreated then its his damn fault and he should lose the entire map or get bashed for it

Reading comprehension. You lack it.

The man argues Devs synergize with FC.
I ask why?
He says FC hels counter jump squads that threaten Devs.
I refute.
You LOL me and argue how well the ASM synergize with FC.

Really? Who the fuck disputed ASM synergizing with the FC?

LOL indeed.

I can only PRESUME that you actually try to argue that FC coming in will give you enough time to resetup your Devastators and blah and blah, which is bullshit because once it's disrupted the enemy will pour all his ranged firepower into them while your FC is busy trying to deal with the asm - The Devastators will, realistically, never re-setup.

As for the Librarian, I have not seen you use it meaningfully even ONCE, and I've played with and against you several times. Yet, you.. Anyway. It's just funny. Watching people defend the Librarian despite having nothing to show for making use of him.

Teleporter being T2; that was not a typo, it was a brain fart on my part.

WTF is your problem anyway? If I hadn't played with you, I'd have taken you for a total tool. Manners, they are important.

i said that they counter (should have said that they KINDA counter em though)
oh and you played vs me ? who are you? i doubt we played a 1v1 game, and if you actually "defeated" me in a 3v3 game, then props to you, my team game strats are rly pro, like rushing a baneblade

[Codex]

Can we keep the scorn and bad manners to a minimum please? I would like to stress that it's not the first time I've said this to some of you.

[Forestradio]

Watching people defend the Librarian despite having nothing to show for making use of him.

Au contraire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhgtGj6HgG4

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... ost9639173

[Torpid]

No. Scorn and contempt is justified when somebody refuses to use proper vernacular. I was going to post a response to Appiah's question on why I thought devastators worked best with the FC but then I saw his post in response to Kvek which I found impossible to read in any other way than "grrrrr, arrrrgghh, fuuuuuck you".

@ Appiah, "the man" has yet to speak to you, yet you blame others for their lack of reading comprehension? Maybe if you weren't so damn emotional you'de see the light of the post-meta!

[Sub_Zero]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhgtGj6HgG4

I watched the cast a while ago and I would not say that the libby usage was spectacular. There were lots of mistakes in his play. He even lost his libby once if I remember correctly. Surely I can't remember all the details but the cast left a bad impression concerning the libby usage.

[Forestradio]

You weren't in the game so maybe you didn't realize that the economic damage from losing the libby was NOTHING compared to the amount of models I lost due to power sword/FTE buffed smite from him.

There's a reason I couldn't get a second terminator squad. Good libby play.

[Sub_Zero]

What I remember is that his multiple attempts to smite your units ended up doing no damage or very low damage. I shall rewatch it and bring here how much damage the first librarian and the second one (both of them) have done to you. Exactly how much models went down due to sword attacks and how much damage casted smites inflicted. Because your post conflicts with what I saw in the match.

[Torpid]

If one already thinks that the libby is bad, then every good play the libby makes one will ignore, while spending extra time to note every failure of the libby. Then, because this is a forum, when expressing the bias perception that one has one will utilise rhetorical tools such as hyperbole and lies to further one's agenda.

Just saying, but that's how shit works.

Models killed is not a good way of identifying the value of certain units otherwise scouts and devastators would be useless, as would the apothecary as hero... not just for utility's sake either, but because inflicted damage and therefore forcing stuff off is nearly as good as killing models outright.

I'de post loads of replays with good libby play, however, as always with my games, they're over before 20mins with either a loss or a win and I don't post games under 20 minutes or games where I don't have the permission of my foe.

[Bahamut]

If one already thinks that the libby is bad, then every good play the libby makes one will ignore, while spending extra time to note every failure of the libby. Then, because this is a forum, when expressing the bias perception that one has one will utilise rhetorical tools such as hyperbole and lies to further one's agenda.

this applies both ways to basically everything. I remember once Tex talking about how strong was to chain KB heroes once you had more than 3 zoanthropes for example

I'd say FC is the best hero to accompany the libby tho, since if you wanna focus the libby then you're letting the FC run amok, and vice versa. But i'd also say that smite is no more dangerous than what destructor is in t1, not it scales as good as doombolts.

Ofc is not about buffing/nerfing smite, but just to reach agreement on where smite stands atm without "hyperboling" it

[Sub_Zero]

If one already thinks that the libby is bad, then every good play the libby makes one will ignore, while spending extra time to note every failure of the libby. Then, because this is a forum, when expressing the bias perception that one has one will utilise rhetorical tools such as hyperbole and lies to further one's agenda

Is this addressed to me?

In case if it is then here is my response.

I clearly remember how I read the comments before watching the video and in the comments someone said that it had been a great libby usage or something like that. And I was curious to find out whether it is true or not. After watching the video I wasn't surprised that the libby play had not been good because during the game. I expected that. That is my impression. Nobody is going to change that. That is why I promised to rewatch that again and write a new post. Maybe I forgot something? Who knows? But I am pretty sure I did not. Gonna find out soon. And when you call me a biased guy because I don't notice good plays it seems illogical to me because you seriously try to influence on my expression of that game. If I considered that game as a bad show of the libby's power then I did that for a reason? Maybe I did that because I saw a lot of mistakes and his inability to make his devastators rock? And the amount of his mistakes and misplays overshadowed that little amount of possible good plays and that is why I considered that game as a bad example? One should understand that.

You weren't in the game so maybe you didn't realize that the economic damage from losing the libby was NOTHING compared to the amount of models I lost due to power sword/FTE buffed smite from him.

You claim that a 350 / 60 (with additional resources spent on the upgrades) investment was nothing compared to some models that the libby killed?! The libby must have killed a lot of stuf, huh?.. Gonna find out soon.

[Forestradio]

Given the relative weakness of the GK t2 eco compared to the SM one, it was a big deal yes.

[Black Relic]

Whats up with all this? I just asked if people find Devestators harder to use with FC. Might need to expand on the question. Before tier 2, how do people think about the use of devs for FC compared to the other Space Marine Heros? What about Tier 2 and tier 3?

I think one reason why people think librarian is a bad unit is because he has only one define use and you cannot really try to experiment with his abilites to make interesting play. Like weird boy's over 'dere can be used in a multitude of different ways. His main role (imo) is to support the SM roster. One way to use him but not focus too much attention on him is before you start an engagement put VoT on your Devs, or on Flamer Tacs or whatever. Smite, I think should not be a ability used in the middle of an engagement, to kill weakened squads. Question, does damage buffs effect libby's smite and not just his default attacks?

Another reason why people may not like him is because one small mistake can kill the libby. If the Autarch gets into trouble she can jump away. Weird Boy and Doom are ranged and are sitting behind an army. Libby doesn't really have a way to get out of trouble other than quickining but he can still get knockedback during it. So id have to ask the quickining modifiers not get disabled on retreat, would help him have a WAY better chance of survival.

But Libby isnt a bad sub though. Just very high risk. Ill admit i used to think him as useless too until i really started experimenting with him. And He is EPIC vs IG. Veil of Time on Dev with Vengeance rounds, buff the dev damage and you already have a counter to light vehicles and transports. Coupled with shout gun scouts you have a counter for organs since they will get shredded. Yes they have a manticore but he HAS to make those shoots count. If he misses, he lost the engagement, since manticore doesn't contribute much to a engagement unless it hits.

But back to before, why do you think Devs are best with FC? I know he can tie up a unit that is getting suppressed but what else is there besides that?

And once in t2 i only find devs useful with a razor back and (damn right) libby. But if dont have either those two units, I find devs hard to work with when playing FC.

[FiSH]

@ Black Relic,

I am not sure why people keep leaving out gate of infinity, or are not willing to make use of it on anything but terminators. Yet, everyone goes nuts with a sigil/warp plays with havoks...

Moreover, why do people keep insisting that veil of time is only to be used on devs? When used on FC with alacrity, he is HILARIOUSLY fast. Just look at this:
http://youtu.be/ppkWRj6EAZ4?t=12m14s
(Note FC doesn't activate "sprint" until the devs are disrupted. Also note the melee charge he gets before hitting the razorback. It's absolutely insane.)

Some people have voiced some valid concerns about the libby, but many have not even touched on the creative plays he can provide. In this regard, I absolutely disagree with your statement that librarian has "one define use and you cannot really try to experiment with his abilities to make interesting play." I am at least glad you think he is not a bad sub.

[Black Relic]

Well normally people use VoT on devs because you can get more bang for you buck. I already know about VoT on FC with AoA. I have it before. I remember combining the Warlocks "Fleet" Global when a mate of mine used that combo. Fastest thing i have every fucking seen. And Gate is useful, but again alot better use with Termies since you can use their teleport offensively and have Libbys Gate warp them out. But I do use Gate but most of what he does for the SM foster is in VoT.

Gate and VoT is pretty epic with 2 devs. Countered ograns with suppression immunity and 3 storm troopers with anti_infantry equipment (and the sniper rifle buff) with libby and 2 devs and 3 scouts. Again not say Gate is useless but normally it cannot be use offensively without putting the libby in some danger. Underline normally caz there are ways.

Libbys abilities are very straight forward and is pretty hard to manipulate them and make them do something crazy like over 'dere to get out of a manticore strike. That is what i meant by libby's one defined use. My bad for not being clear.

[Atlas]

Huh, didn't think there was 2 Libby threads on this forum.

[Arbit]

All threads eventually become libby threads. I think the conclusion we've come to in this one is that the libby is a bottom tier hero.

I use VoT on my TM to go manticore huntin', then use gateway to bring him back. VoT on a melta TM is great for vehicle hunting in general because of the 100% FotM.

[Torpid]

Libby is not high risk. If you're having him fight dedicated melee squads without support then you're using him wrong. Even then, you're SM so you have tonnes of knockback to deal with melee - shotguns, your heroes, ASM jumps, emperor's fist and then the VoT devs who are ever present. Then you have quickening too so there's really no excuse.

[Tex]

Back on topic... Libby is a fucking sub hero you tools !

I had some good games this evening... including a nailbiter!!! woohoo! Replays incoming.

[Tex]

Okay! LC diaries games 9 through 13

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294858

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294859

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294860

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294861

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294862

[Tex]

FC diaries (missing a few games here and there I think)

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294863

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294864

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294865

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294866

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294867

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294868

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294869

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294870

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294871

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294873

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=294874

[L0thar]

I finally get to watch the FC replays. Some nice games, thanks for sharing.

The game with Raffa made me questioning the general consensus "Chaos has hard time teching" a little. But one game is one game.

In the game vs PC Toil (casted there https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6sCZlP86Ns), he set up a great defensive position covering two VPs. I believe the dread was a good choice, but the PCs lasturret is kind of crazy. I think blind grenade from ASM would do well. Jump, grenade turret, melta dread and follow up with your own dread and the rest of the army. Not sure how it would fare in reality though.

Also the PC turtling ability is going to be much better in next path, ugh...

Anyway, Tex, do you have any closing comments regarding FC, PC and LC after this project?

[Tex]

I do actually, thanks for asking!

In regards to the PC, I feel like I have made some very legitimate points in regards to his overall weakness in 1v1. Throughout my diary games, even though I managed to win a bunch of them, you can see examples dotted all over the place of the of the aforementioned weaknesses (which I shall list again.... lol):

-Lack of mobility leading to inability to retake map, exacerbated by chaos race lack of mobility in general.
-Dependency on raptors which causes a very poor transition into AV in T2.
-Dependency on grenade launcher heretics causing you to lose your largest damage potential unit for T1 and early T2 (AC heretics + ToN) and also your control unit.
-Inability to punish overlapping setup teams (ties into the raptor dependency).
-Plague sword not being an independent wargear (it will be next patch though).
-Inability to counter snipers (ties into the raptor dependency).
-Worship scaling poorly (this is getting adjusted next patch too I think).

With all that said, I feel like the PC has some major strengths too, some of which I don't feel like I even had enough time to exploit. He is so incredibly effective against orks it's just downright scary. I would go so far as to say that he is literally the cure to ork problems. The PC is also very powerful against Tyranids and only really struggles against a big pile of zoanthropes. I feel like he is on a level playing field with GK and definitely has an edge against IG, but then we get back to what I feel are 6 matchups that cannot be won if played on an equal skill level.

Eldar and SM are just impossibly hard to play against and it is so very easy to exploit the PC for an easy win. Snipers backed up by a suppression team. It seems to be a recipe that cooks the PC every time.

Will do my thoughts on the FC and LC later.

[Caeltos]

The Raptor overall transitional AV play will be largely improved given that they will recieve a melta pistol and melta fist. (Maybe abit overkill, but we'll see)

Of course, there's more the patch then that, but overall the transitional playstyle that usually incorporates Raptors will be widely more accessibily since they're able to trade against light vehicles, or deal more impactful damage with melta fist or melta pistol (if you're being cautious)

[BaptismByLoli]

melta fist

Whatever you say Caeltos

Where is your Emperor now, Loyalist! XD

Sent from my GT-S5830i using Tapatalk 2

[Orkfaeller]

melta fist

Because f**k tanks particular

[Raffa]

Against SM as Chaos actually find map control is not a problem, therefore fast teching is more viable. I usually have pretty good resource awareness but I was off this time, for some reason thought it was much closer. Vehicle was obviously needed not the CL upgrades. And fully upgrading CL is awful compositional choice, sometimes you get away with it in larger gamemodes but it was bad here. All mistakes that come from not playing enough 1v1 lol.

But I don't like any Chaos vehicles against the FC. The risk the power fist brings is too high - bloodcrushers get raped and hugbots are obviously out of the equation since I'm not a Sorc so cannot maximise their potential as bullet-magnets. Again personal opinion tho.

My bad judgement calls lost this game, but wp Tex still for making up the tech disadvantage.

[Tex]

Against SM as Chaos actually find map control is not a problem, therefore fast teching is more viable. I usually have pretty good resource awareness but I was off this time, for some reason thought it was much closer. Vehicle was obviously needed not the CL upgrades. And fully upgrading CL is awful compositional choice, sometimes you get away with it in larger gamemodes but it was bad here. All mistakes that come from not playing enough 1v1 lol.

But I don't like any Chaos vehicles against the FC. The risk the power fist brings is too high - bloodcrushers get raped and hugbots are obviously out of the equation since I'm not a Sorc so cannot maximise their potential as bullet-magnets. Again personal opinion tho.

My bad judgement calls lost this game, but wp Tex still for making up the tech disadvantage.

Yeah you pretty much had me dead to rights and blew it buy spending way too much on something that I actually could counter at the time.