Gates and Autarch Upgrades

[Lt. Ekul]

Hey all, I just have a couple questions I'd like to ask everyone.

Firstly, what do people think of being able to scuttle Webway Gates? Now wait a second before the rage starts flying at me. I ask this because occasionally Rangers and other units can get stuck in Webways, which can be a real pain. So would it be possible for Webway gates to be scuttleable. No red need be given in the process, nor other resources, otherwise you'd have people spamming gates like crazy without massive consequences because they could just destroy them and get half of their investment back. So what do people think of having this option available? I suppose a similar question could be asked of Ravener Tunnels. I've sometimes put down a Tunnel by my power node which has actually locked me out of purchasing one of my three gens, because the Tunnel occupies the allotted space for the future generator - the position of the generators seems to be decided largely at random.

Secondly, I would like to know what people think of the Autarch weapon upgrades. Namely once you've purchased one and decided to switch, being able to purchase the first upgrade for free. So you buy the spear in T2, pay for the Fusion Gun in T3, then switch back to the spear for no cost. Or in light of the recent changes to the Lord General Retinue upgrades, having them cost only half of their initial cost when you need to buy them back, perhaps a similar thing could be done with the Autarch weapon upgrades. Purchase the spear in T2, then the Fusion Gun in T3, then buy the spear back again for half the cost.

What is everybody's opinion on these questions/suggestions?

[Torpid]

I think they're both fair and sound ideas. I approve.

Losing a squad as pivotal to rangers can change games and it shouldn't happen. So long as the bug remains this is a good change to help with it and of course, like you say it doesn't really have balance repercussions, losing the webway gate meaninglessly still negatively affects the eldar, so it's fine.

The autarch fusion gun is really underused, I think your proposal is a good idea.

[Myrdal]

Great idea with a gate (or tunnel) self-destruct as units getting stuck is pretty common (at least with set up units) and is even worse than losing a squad.

[Uncle Milty]

I am highly uncertain that scuttling a gate would free the units. But maybe worth the shot.

[Lt. Ekul]

What makes you say that Milty? In the past when my Rangers have been stuck in the Webway and it gets destroyed they can move just fine.

[Ace of Swords]

Would be nice to have a button to dismante pretty much everything tbh, not so long ago a drop pod I called in base locked Riku's LR.

[FiSH]

What makes you say that Milty? In the past when my Rangers have been stuck in the Webway and it gets destroyed they can move just fine.

can confirm. ground attacked the gate with wraithguards, one ranger model died, but the rest were set free. i haven't tried this with shuriken tho.

i like both ideas.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

Like the gate idea; it's been the bane of many units due to it's eldar trickery, and being able to recuperate a squad is game changing as its been said before.

*edit*
derped that one

[KanKrusha]

Shuriken stays stuck even if you destroy the gate. I think this is because of their deset up time. Basically when you exit the gate you scar takes control of your unit for a period and then returns it. I suspect shurikens don't exit fast enough to return control to the player.

I have wondered if shortening the exit time for the gate might fix the problem

[Asmon]

Would be nice to have a button to dismante pretty much everything tbh, not so long ago a drop pod I called in base locked Riku's LR.

Lul how is that possible? The LR should be able to walk over and destroy it.

On topic: I suggested scuttable gates to Caeltos months ago. He said he heard me yet nothing happened. Perhaps that's just a miss though =)

Autarch's upgrades are overpriced, shield included. What you describe is fine but anyway a price drop is necessary.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the issue happens when setup units are close enough to something to jump in without desetting up. you can jump in transports the same way but it doesn't bug for whatever reason.

[Dark Riku]

I don't like this idea at all. You are supposed to think before you place it somewhere. Not to mention gates cost pop. If you placed it in a bad spot and now suddenly are in need for pop you should have thought about that earlier. Being able to scuttle gates can make a player go insane trying to hunt them down and denying him red and exp.

If something like this would be to happen the opposing player should get a clear long visual note of where the gate/tunnel was scuttled, get the red if he would have destroyed it himself and get the exp.

The gate bug can be easily avoided with some basic micro too.

Lul how is that possible? The LR should be able to walk over and destroy it.

You can't run over pods.

[Lt. Ekul]

I don't like this idea at all. You are supposed to think before you place it somewhere. Not to mention gates cost pop. If you placed it in a bad spot and now suddenly are in need for pop you should have thought about that earlier.

I don't see what this has to do with my suggestion. And regarding pop, Webway's cost is pretty minimal, not enough to get another unit out, so I really don't see the effect they will have on your population. I don't think destroying a Webway is going to have a massive effect on the game in terms of pop. It might allow you to get another unit out, but the gate could just have easily been destroyed by alerting your opponent to it, like blatantly running back to it after an engagement. Also this point isn't a possible rebuttal to my argument, because whilst you can alert your opponent to the presence of your Webway that has a stuck unit inside, along with the gate being destroyed you'll also lose the unit. And furthermore reclaiming Webways for pop seems like an inefficient way to use Webways. They would almost certainly have more of an impact on the game by being present and costing you minimal pop than being scuttled and freeing some pop.

Being able to scuttle gates can make a player go insane trying to hunt them down and denying him red and exp.

If something like this would be to happen the opposing player should get a clear long visual note of where the gate/tunnel was scuttled, get the red if he would have destroyed it himself and get the exp.

You can scuttle turrets and your opponent gets no resources or xp. Admittedly the two aren't entirely analogous, but I don't see why your opponent should get xp and red for you scuttling a Webway gate when the same can't be said of any other buildings in the game. And why would it make people go insane? They'd be hunting for Webways regardless of whether or not the opponent scuttled them. And I don't think it would drive people insane. All that would need be done is to send a detector to the perceived location of the gate. If it's there then great, if it's not then it's not.

The gate bug can be easily avoided with some basic micro too.

I agree with this. But sometimes it can't be avoided, let alone easily, especially with the changes to the Webway sight radius. Webways have a very small sight radius, which means you may end up sending a Ranger out of a Webway expecting no enemies to be there, when in fact your whole opponent's army is there. This means that you have no time to move your Rangers outside of the gate and then back in because if you don't put them back in the Webway immediately they'll die, but if you do put them back they'll get stuck on the return journey.
If you think the changes would be that drastically imbalanced, then I think that limiting the scuttle ability only to Webways within a certain radius of your HQ would solve that problem.

[Asmon]

the issue happens when setup units are close enough to something to jump in without desetting up. you can jump in transports the same way but it doesn't bug for whatever reason.

Nope, the issue can happen with any squad. At least we do know how it does happen for setup squads, but that helps in no way preventing it for other units. I've already had my DA and my shees stuck. And nothing, even destroying the gate, did free them.

Lul how is that possible? The LR should be able to walk over and destroy it.

You can't run over pods.

Uh? I just did few days ago. Or you mean as an ally?

[Ace of Swords]

Uh? I just did few days ago. Or you mean as an ally?

I guess you ran over a ven dred pod, not the reinfocing pod.

[Orkfaeller]

Yeah, DreadPods are crushable, Reinforcing Pods arent.

[Lesten]

Both good ideas, especially the one about webway gates. The gate bug is just so incredibly frustrating - if just a single unit gets stuck it can completely screw you over, and even if you're careful it can still happen.
But perhaps the scuttle shouldn't be instantaneous, so that you can't deny red/xp to enemies targeting it (should be a restriction for turrets that can be scuttled as well).

[Dark Riku]

And regarding pop, Webway's cost is pretty minimal, not enough to get another unit out, so I really don't see the effect they will have on your population.

This has huge effects on your pop. Just having 2 out costs you 6 pop.
Which can mean the difference of fielding that extra fire prism or not, etc.

You can scuttle turrets and your opponent gets no resources or xp. Admittedly the two aren't entirely analogous,

You already countered yourself. These also aren't turrets that suppress.

And why would it make people go insane? They'd be hunting for Webways regardless of whether or not the opponent scuttled them. And I don't think it would drive people insane. All that would need be done is to send a detector to the perceived location of the gate. If it's there then great, if it's not then it's not.

Sure, cuz you have the time to do that in a real game -.-

But sometimes it can't be avoided, let alone easily, especially with the changes to the Webway sight radius.

That specific bug can always be avoided.

Webways have a very small sight radius, which means you may end up sending a Ranger out of a Webway expecting no enemies to be there, when in fact your whole opponent's army is there.

What's your point? This is totally fine.

[David-CZ]

Webways have a very small sight radius, which means you may end up sending a Ranger out of a Webway expecting no enemies to be there, when in fact your whole opponent's army is there.

What's your point? This is totally fine.

That you lose your squad to your enemy is fine. That you lose your squad to a bug definitely isn't.

As long as the bug is in the game and this mechanism solves it, it should be implemented. When and if it gets solved properly the changes can be taken back, but as for now, scuttable gates are optimal.

[Vapor]

Webways have a very small sight radius, which means you may end up sending a Ranger out of a Webway expecting no enemies to be there, when in fact your whole opponent's army is there.

What's your point? This is totally fine.

That you lose your squad to your enemy is fine. That you lose your squad to a bug definitely isn't.

As long as the bug is in the game and this mechanism solves it, it should be implemented. When and if it gets solved properly the changes can be taken back, but as for now, scuttable gates are optimal.

If the point is to avoid the bug then scuttling needs to alert the enemy, give the enemy red, and give all enemy units XP.

[David-CZ]

If the point is to avoid the bug then scuttling needs to alert the enemy, give the enemy red, and give all enemy units XP.

Indeed. Although I don't think it should alert the enemy. I think it should give red and XP when the gate is detected.

[Torpid]

Alternatively the scuttling itself could cost a fairly significant chunk of red and take a while. Either way though, it's true it can't just be instantaneous and with no repercussions because it is too abuseable.

[Lt. Ekul]

Would it not be possible to limit this change to only within a radius of your HQ? Surely that would avoid all the issues people have about it being abuseable, wasting opponent's time, and not allowing them to benefit from its destruction etc. It wouldn't be abuseabe if it was in a certain radius of your HQ because that's a limited space in which to work; it wouldn't waste your opponent's time because he/she wouldn't need to be looking for any gates, and it wouldn't be giving you any kind of advantage in terms of stalling out your opponent's game by looking for nonexistent gates or anything like that. This would also eliminate the need for your opponent to get any kind of recompense for them missing out on the chance to destroy the gates themselves, because the chances are slim that they would go into your HQ and destroy gates there.

And Riku I don't know whether or not it was your intention to come off as such, but you came off quite rude, which only discourages me and presumably other people from posting questions and the like in these forums, which I believe would stagnate the game as a whole.

Also people have been responding to the Webway suggestion a lot, but what are people's opinions on the Autarch query?

[Tex]

I just think that the autarch shield is over-priced.

Should she be able to switch between weapons, fluff wise, probably ("there is no weapon I have not mastered"). As far as balance goes, I'm not sure it would have the greatest impact, so why not? The fusion gun is T3 anyway.