Raptors' Jump

[Raffa]

Before I start I should say that I have used Raptors very extensively in high level 1v1, so this is where my observations are coming from. I'm aware they may seem ok but scratch beneath the surface and there's a real issue.

The jump Raptors have. This is a problem. 65 energy for suppression on landing. This does not synergise well with daemonic fury (iirc daemon maul ability) or melta bombs. Nor does it allow a quick second jump for a low-model squad. These together mean it is much, much harder to use Raptors effectively than it is to use ASM. I acknowledge the 400/40 cost means they should not be as effective, and obviously they are different units in different factions, but they do not have the same insurance that ASM have when they can jump out (99% of the time guaranteeing no model loss) and for a 3-man, expensive squad this is a massive drawback. You have to consider the glaring similarities between the two units, despite the difference in race. Also, suppression is not nearly as useful as weapon knockback for jump troops for so many reasons. Hit them while knocked down, general disruption, etc..

All in all, for a unit that you have to go out of your way to buy in a similar vein to all jump troops, you are getting a far less secure unit where you have to be much more careful of your jumps. They lack the punch of stormboys (for the same cost), the disruption of raveners and the health (and disruption) of ASM. My solutions would be:

1. Reduce the cost of the Jump to 60/55
2. Change their Jump to do weapon knockback on landing instead of suppression
3. Possibly (if Jump becomes 55 energy) consider increasing their cost to 400/45

Yes there have to be differences between the jump troops to keep variety, but in this case I think the differences in hp between ASM and Raptors, as well as the dps and weapon upgrades/abilities, mean that this shouldn't be an issue.

[Indrid]

Raptor jump no longer suppresses when they have the meltaguns iirc.

As for your general point, I think they're fine as is. Remember, they also suppress AGAIN after they land (usually after another short passive "burst" jump), meaning you can suppress multiple squads that are not necessarily close to each other at the time of jumping. Compared to knockback I think it's well implemented and nicely balanced. The big downside, as you say, is that the jump uses 10 more energy. Given their cost though, and the fact that they can have AC Heretics running in alongside them in T1, I think it's fine.

Chaos' T1 "weakness" in retail was that they had no hard unit-for-unit counter to setup teams. Giving them a jump squad in T1 in Elite must have been a huge decision for Caeltos to make (I expected any Raptors to be T2) so to give them the same jump-in jump-out advantage as ASM is gonna be a hard sell.

They may not have as much HP as ASM, but 1050 HP of HI on a jump squad is by no means weak in T1.

Spare a thought for Interceptors. They are 500/50, same HP as ASM, and their jump does nothing in T1 (apart from being instant), and have regular melee. They get beastly in T2 though.

The one thing I don't like about Raptors is that they make the Cacophony sound when they land. Kinda gotten used to it now, but it should be reserved for Noise Marines imo. I dunno if there's another sound effect they can use.

[Helios]

Agreed about the sound effect on jump. It's so annoying... Change it to maybe a pitched down/slowed down version of banshee wails? It certainly needs to be something new else people will continue to note how its too much like something else (BC roar for example)

[FunkyMonkey]

As you (Helios) have suggested, I've always imagined raptor screams to be like slightly lower-pitched howling Banshee screams

[sk4zi]

i also think, that Raptors should not be a copy of ASM for less price.
As indrid sayed, SM play quite different to chaos and need the ASM much more.

Chaos raptors are in my opinion a bit overextendet anyway.
Chaos has grenade launchers as dedicated setup counter and Noise Marines to shut them completely down.
i for myself dont like them. although they are looking very nice and are well designed they make the chaos play much more agile and quote similar to SM, whitch is actually an issue
Chais has so many cool mechanics like whorship noise, heretics for melee...
SM has only ASM and now they are no longer uniqe ...

Raptors are nice to have, but they should not be as strong as asm since chaos has so many other options to interrupt.

[Nurland]

Maybe getting the AC could reduce the jump jost to 60/55energy? Since atm the AC doesn't really give much besides for the obvious increase in dps and hp. Other jump units get some sort of ability with their squad leader (storms get stun upon landing, asm get merciless, ceptors get kb and dmg upon landing).

[Raffa]

@Indrid
You can suppress multiple squads. Normally this is by landing in the middle of them :p The secondary jump is a helpful bonus but don't know anyone who jumps in and relies on the secondary jump to do something. Usually you have a target to hit. Bear in mind that this is also (excluding fetid armor) Chaos' 3RD UNIT that suppresses in t1. All other races have 2.

@Nurland
Agree with your point on squad leaders. Honestly though I would now just give the AC a Daemon Maul straight up and give him destructive strike, using the CL animation (talking about the thing on the ground that represents the strike) when they buy AC to keep with the precedent set by the other jump units which all receive a much more significant boost in power via abilities than raptors do with their AC, who just gives more dps and hp. Speaking of which the Daemon Maul has replaced Reinforced Chitin as the least used upgrade in the game - I mean cmon 90/25 for +5 dps and an ability that function much less smoothly than, for the sake of argument, destructive strike?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Agree with your point on squad leaders. Honestly though I would now just give the AC a Daemon Maul straight up and give him destructive strike, using the CL animation (talking about the thing on the ground that represents the strike) when they buy AC to keep with the precedent set by the other jump units which all receive a much more significant boost in power via abilities than raptors do with their AC, who just gives more dps and hp. Speaking of which the Daemon Maul has replaced Reinforced Chitin as the least used upgrade in the game - I mean cmon 90/25 for +5 dps and an ability that function much less smoothly than, for the sake of argument, destructive strike?

I would like to see the Daemon Maul upgrade giving to all Chaos Raptors members a Daemon Maul, with a little damage increase (30.77 from the default chainswords to 35 dps with the Daemon Maul, for example). The AC keeps the actual damage (45 dps)

Daemonic Fury isn't the same ability than the Sweeping Doom: Sweeping Doom is great to AOE damage, Daemonic Fury to snipe a model to kill him.

Daemonic Fury: Strike an enemy model with daemonic fury, the hit does 200 melee_pvp damage and weapon knockback to the target. 80 second cooldown.

Maybe the main reason of the actual Raptor's Jump energy cost is this: the Workshipp.

Maybe a Chaos Raptor squad can't jump two times in a row (except if they are level 3-4 or with the help of one CL with Harness of Rage) like the ASM, but the Chaos Raptors thanks to workshipp, can infiltrate, have a 7 speed (5+2 from the Khorne Workshipp) or a great HP regeneration.

Not mention that even without Raptors, a Chaos player can easily counter a setup team. GL Heretics, the Chaos Lord with/out wargear, Chaos Sorcerer with teleport, Havocs suppressing in the limit of his arc, Noise Marines with workshipp help... There is not a very good idea to give Chaos an additional jump squad with two jumps in a row or with knockback on landing.

But i maybe would like to see a little energy cost reduction with the AC... or at least with the Meltagun upgrade (because they lose the suppress-on-landing and the Melee aura ability.

[Ace of Swords]

I'd say raptors are fine as they are, they are quite 'cheap' for their role and DPS

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite/Chaos_Raptors

1050 HP with 30.77 Melee DPS (400/40) Champion Does 40 Power Melee

vs

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Elite/Assault_Squad

1200 HP with 26.92 Melee DPS (450/50) Sarge does 30.77 Power Melee

Id say it's a pretty good deal and in T2 they either win of have an extremely close fight with ASM.

The only thing I would change is the Daemon maul which costs 100/30 now? Well yeah that's too expensive something around 50/15 is more appropriate.

[Indrid]

Maul is 90/25 now.

[Raffa]

Sense I'm fighting a losing battle here...

But I think we agree the Maul isn't in a good spot atm. Keep price the same and change it to 60 dps heavy melee?

[Nuclear Arbitor]

jump is probably the hardest thing to change on raptors. right now raptors are a counter to setup teams and ranged units and cause quite a bit of disruption. on top of this chaos has a lot of ranged counters (heretics, havoks, noise marines) who function exceedingly well with havoks disrupting the enemy ranged blobs to allow the other units to close without taking as much damage. allowing raptors to jump twice would allow them, in coordination with other units, to counter double setup teams as well as massively increasing their survivability. i understand where you're coming from but i don't see anyway to buff their jump that doesn't have a huge impact on their aggressive utility.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

The Maul it's not bad at all, maybe need something more.

If the problem is that is unbalanced 2 jumps in a row in T1, why not give something to Meltaguns and Daemonic Maul upgrades?

For example, since with Meltaguns the Raptors lose melee power and the suppress effect on landing, why not decrease the Jump's energy cost, or at least decrease the Melta bomb energy cost?

With the Maul, since is a T3 upgrade, could give to the AC or the Maul's owner the ability to gain 3 energy per hit, or reduce the daemonic maul ability energy cost?

[Rataxas]

1. Reduce the cost of the Jump to 60/55
2. Change their Jump to do weapon knockback on landing instead of suppression
3. Possibly (if Jump becomes 55 energy) consider increasing their cost to 400/45

How as Techmarine will you stop Chaos Lord or Plague Champion in combination :
- CL
- 2/3 ticks ( 1 with nade 1/2 melee )
- Raptors

or

- CL
- 2 ticks
- csm
- raptors
- noise

or

- PC
- 2 ticks
- 2 raptors

Not sure do you know but any melee units against PC CL in T1 and T2 gonna get smashed , for real even building ASM against Sorc is a pain. If some ppl want add 2 jumps on raptors , move out nades on ticks to T2.

[Torpid]

Yeah, it would be impossible. Chaos already massacre eldar, changing raptors to have a double jump would make that MU even more hellish. Really, they do so much dps now they don't need the double jump, not to mention how much better the other chaos units are to the space marine roster in t1. Double jump is excessive.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Chaos already massacre eldar

Wot?

[Raffa]

how much better the other chaos units are to the space marine roster in t1

Chaos already massacre eldar

Ok I already knew this but now it's so obvious I think I can say it openly:

You know fuck all about this game. Please go troll somewhere else. Bye.

[Torpid]

how much better the other chaos units are to the space marine roster in t1

Chaos already massacre eldar

Ok I already knew this but now it's so obvious I think I can say it openly:

You know fuck all about this game. Please go troll somewhere else. Bye.

Eh, Chaos steamroll eldar? Chaos lord just walks through unscathed, noise marines just inflict soooo much damage, add in AC tics, one nade tic and CSM, it really hard counters most eldar builds. You then end up getting that dread out before they can get a lord since they have the higher power expenditure. It's not just the lord either, sorceror+flame sword tics own shees, sorceror can instantly tie up shurikens although due to nade tics he never has to waste power on teleport etc etc.

Chaos have the MU advantage vs Eldar, although of course the warlock can change that somewhat since he is the FC of eldar...

[Torpid]

Oh and regarding "how much better chaos t1 units are" I really meant tics. Both nade tics and AC tics are far more useful in a lot of MUs than scouts are. Sure scouts are great to have around for anti melee, but what if space marines had AC tics? Just imagine it.

[Dark Riku]

Chaos doesn't steamroll Eldar at all.
If he has ac tics, nade tics, csm and nm You should have a lot of stuff too.

A shurycan to counter everything but the nade tics.
A shee squad to counter everything but the ac tics.
A gaurdian nade to counter anything :p
Gaurdian shields to negate any ranged dmg.
A ranger to poke the nm, csm very hard.
And your own heroes capabilities depending on which one you chose.

Wl to engage and demolish those tics with destructor or pressure something.
Farseer to engage, to buff w/e is needed and tie up the nm/csm/nadetics.
Wse to tie up anything you need instantly or provide some fire support.

[crazyman64335]

i do agree that the maul is quite useless on them. you give up soo much for a seemingly little gain. it's certainly not a cost effective upgrade and i wouldn't mind seeing a buff or a price reduction

[Raffa]

i do agree that the maul is quite useless on them

A masterpiece in understatement.

Most fluffy option would ofc be warp talons; think it might also have a balanced function in the game.

Lulgrim, I presume it is hypothetically possible to implement an upgrade to make raptors have a lightning claw and plasma pistol (since there's no animation for a pair of lightning claws), and one have a Daemon Maul?

If not please tell me, otherwise I think I'll start writing a mini-essay on it as a change like this isn't going to happen without a lot of thought and reasoning

[Torpid]

I don't think warp talons would be such a good idea, chaos already have bloodletters in t2 and they are dangerous enough. Getting a unit with even higher dps/hp than them and the ability to teleport/jump and the support of worship etc, just seems unnecessary. I think it would be too powerful a unit, with no real purpose and just adding to chaos' versatility in t3 too much. Basically chaos shouldn't get vanguards.

I think it would be better to give the maul heavy melee and increase it's damage a bit, but the rest of the squad still retain ordinary melee, so basically the only time you get this upgrade is when you need some AV, but you also need melee jump troops at the same time.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

i do agree that the maul is quite useless on them

A masterpiece in understatement.

Most fluffy option would ofc be warp talons; think it might also have a balanced function in the game.

Lulgrim, I presume it is hypothetically possible to implement an upgrade to make raptors have a lightning claw and plasma pistol (since there's no animation for a pair of lightning claws), and one have a Daemon Maul?

If not please tell me, otherwise I think I'll start writing a mini-essay on it as a change like this isn't going to happen without a lot of thought and reasoning

I would like to see Warp Talons as a Raptors upgrade, but IMHO there are two reasons why we will not see it implemented.

1. The Warp Talons upgrade seems too much similar to Vanguard Veterans, and i'm not very sure if Caeltos (da balance boss) would like it.

2. Chaos already have Bloodletters with Teleport and power_melee damage. Right now they are too similar, with this change would be even more.

I was thinking in something.

What about this idea? With the Daemon Maul upgrade (not neccessary needs to be alive the Raptors' Aspiring Champion) when the Raptors supress a squad when they land, the affected squad now do 15% less damage and receive more 15% damage for 10 seconds, for example.

This would make:
1. An utility to the Daemon Maul upgrade when the AC is dead.
2. Increase their T3 efficience without increase their dps or health.
3. It would difference the Raptors's role with the Bloodletters role.