GK Balance Assessment Thread

[Torpid]

I've been maining GK in 1v1 for about a month now and I've noticed a few things about them in that time. I want to make a post that elaborates what I've noticed so as to start a proper meta for the grey knights from which balance changes can be properly addressed.

Overall Grey Knights seem to function as a combination between orks and space marines. They have the clear durability and low model count of space marines along with the unit to unit synergy that SM has, however their emphasis on melee and lack of serious ranged firepower especially after t1 means that they often have to all-in with regards to engagements. Either they follow through fully, which they do quite well with their melee base, or they bleed disproportionately and achieve very little - this is why they're like orks.

GK are heavily focused on t1 pressure. Their t1 is extremely strong due to the bro-captain high durability and damage, the huge burst damage of the inquisitorial stormtroopers (IST) and the efficiency of the Interceptors (GKI). However come t2 their eco starts to lag as suddenly the strike squad is rather inefficient in combat - being easily beaten by both ranged squads and melee squads, IST offer the main form of ranged fire support but they still only have 750LIhp and are easily gibbed by artillery. The vindicare Assassin's high req cost compared to his power means he's often a poor choice for dealing with walkers because you MUST follow it up with a las-rhino or purifiers, both of which have very high req costs on top of the VA and the fact that the GK t2 is innately req-heavy. Often this means I will try to get the economic lead so that I can get a dread out before they get a walker and then take it down with GKI melta bomb support, a heavy bolter rhino ill often get this job done well. Any transports are swiftly destroyed by the VA and the purifiers deal with enemy melee squads very efficiently. The GK t3 is rather simple. Paladins counter tanks. Terminators counter SHI. The LRC counters LI/HI blobs.

1) What does this mean for the balance of Grey Knights in general? It means their t1 is highly effective at pressuring opponents via bleed and map control mainly due to the IST and so typically a heavy t1 should be the response to grey knights much like you would do vs nids. This means often the IST are going to be purchased in abundance by the GK player, often wanting at least 2, but usually 3. This has problems for GK come T2 however as they then have all these squishy 750LI squads that function as their primary form of ranged damage against fully upgraded t2 ranged squads and artillery, both of which bleed them immensely.

Potential Solution (PS)? The strike squad need to assist in the ranged role in t2 mainly so that there is something to counter ranged HI squads without bleeding so much and to act as something more useful than a capping squad when they lack their nemmy focus upgrade, ForestRadio suggests the following to which I would agree is a good idea:

"Psy-Bolt Ammunitions Upgrade

Cost: 100/25

Tier 2

Once purchased, the strike squad cannot equip Incinerators or Pyscannons, and is unable to research the Nemesis Focus upgrade.

The upgrade changes the damage type of the Strike Squad ranged weapons from "piercing_pvp" to "Inferno_pvp"

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/Damage_types

Psy-Bolt Ammunition would not affect raw dps values, only damage type."

This helps GK with the troublesome task of focusing down heroes and it gives them a sturdy ranged base in T2 with which they can fight other ranged units head-on and not be doomed to lose the fight economically every single engagement.

2) Another Issue that I perceive Grey knights as having currently is the purgation squad's failure to scale. At the moment they do their job in t1 well - countering melee, especially high model melee squads, however come T2 they are pretty awful at this job because the flamers don't do enough damage, nor do they have the health at all to fight in full-on engagements. 900hp of HI in t2 when you have a range of 27 and by necessity are meant to be around enemy melee is just bad. Furthermore as a ranged anti-all squad the psycannon purgation squad suffers from similar issues. They still lose horribly to any ranged squad with anti HI upgrades while losing their protection versus melee units.

PS: Grant a further T2 upgrade for the purgation squad that increases their dps and hp by around 25% in addition to this, also add a 25% health boost to the purgation squad when they purchase the psycannon upgrade. This should give them some proper scaling and a lot more utility in T2.

3) Another problem I've noticed is the lack of control that grey knights have. Obviously by lacking a suppression team their control over blobs in general is diminished, but melee is the biggest issue for GK. They don't get the shotguns or anti-melee heroes that space marines get, nor do they have the dedicated melee squads that nids/ork/chaos get, the huge control and aoe that eldar get or the sentinels/catachans that IG get, so ultimately they have problems with melee. To an extent the burst fire of the inquisitorial stormtroopers deals with this, however that simply doesn't scale into T2 which again is the need for some better ranged dps and making purgation scale better, however I feel the disruptive abilities the IST do have just aren't viable at the moment.

Mines have the problem of being really expensive, 15 power is a lot considering your IST need either sergeants or grenade launchers (very rarely) to be effective as it is and as GK you want to be getting to t2 first else you end up being indefinitely stuck in it. Furthermore they are of course countered by detectors and so if you want to make use of them vs anything other than eldar then you need to spread them all over the place - something not possible with only one squad having mines. Note that the mines do very little damage too. Additionally the IST grenade launchers are rather lacking at the moment because although they do significant damage to stationary targets very rarely is melee stationery and also one barrage+attack ground will let your SS deal with any t1 melee squad, it doesn't scale AND you're making yourself more vulnerable to the enemy heroes from your lack of focus fire ability AND making your IST less effective than they would be with the sarge at both map control +250hp+0.5 speed and bleed.

PS: I really think the mine upgrade could do with a power cost reduction to 10 power instead of 15, or at least a lower cooldown on the mines (not sure how the energy regen vs cooldown works, but they're not spammable at all atm).

For the grenade launcher I suggest reducing their grenade damage by 20% and spreading it over 3 models, while leaving 2 lasgun models just so you aren't left completely with your pants down when their melee hero runs in, that way it will hopefully be a viable weapon of choice if you have a serious need to deal with melee that the purgation squad alone isn't aiding with.

So, it's mainly their T1 scaling that is an issue as it results in GK really failing apart economically come late T2. I actually like the performance of their t2/t3 units as of now, it's just their eco is horrendous and it needs help. The only thing that I can think of possibly needing a buff despite the three aforementioned things is the mind blades global - a 10 melee skill increase is just not sufficient when often you want to use this global to allow the GKI or SS to have the upper hand against a non-buffed dedicated melee squad. It still doesn't help them out enough to justify the cost, in fact I use it more on the VA for the extra AV damage, or purifiers. I find it difficult to suggest where exactly GKs should be nerfed given the role that I Caeltos has assigned to GK as the only race to lack set-up teams+tanks

Also, care to shed some thoughts on the role/purpose/intention of the dreadknight Caeltos?

[Forestradio]

Buffs

Nemesis Focus Strike Squad should have their justicar permanent because they are useless when not spamming their abilities because they can't beat ANYTHING in melee or ranged unless you use mind blades.

Strike Squad Energy burst needs to snare for longer, or suppress, or have a shorter cooldown. It just doesn't do enough even vs bubble commanders.

Purgation Squad needs a weapon range buff with both incinerators and pyscannons. They are currently an "anti-nothing" unit that looks great on paper but is so fucking useless in game that they don't do anything. Their AoE flame ability should also cancel movement on the two squad members that aren't channeling the ability, otherwise they continue with whatever action that were doing previously.

Interceptor grenades need to stop glitching out since it almost always results in a squad wipe and losing fully upgraded interceptors in t2 is pretty much game over.

Agree that mind blades should be giving at least +30 melee skill. GK rely on their special attacks more than any other faction in the game.

GK t3 is good, and will become better when new unit(s) are added to it, but it's very one dimensional and all races have easy access to counters to terminators right now.

A Couple Nerfs

Grey Knight Terminator incinerators are still absurdly OP even with their DoT being removed recently. They need to have their dps toned down, and cost increased, since it's basically 80/20 for a heavy flamer on a power melee squad.

Terminator Librarian's "Purge" ability needs to no longer affect retreating units or last for a shorter amount of time. Right now it is 30 percent more damage taken for 30 seconds, which is too much.

[David-CZ]

I'm not sure I understand the general issue so I'll just recap.

T1 is strong but the units have problem scaling.
T2 has good units that "replace" T1 units.
T3 also has good units though there are one dimensional.

[Dark Riku]

Strike Squad Energy burst needs to snare for longer, or suppress, or have a shorter cooldown. It just doesn't do enough even vs bubble commanders.

I don't think you understand what a big deal taking away energy is.

Purgation Squad needs a weapon range buff with both incinerators and pyscannons. They are currently an "anti-nothing" unit that looks great on paper but is so fucking useless in game that they don't do anything.

This is just an exaggeration and frankly not true at all.
Talking like this won't get you anywhere.

Their AoE flame ability should also cancel movement on the two squad members that aren't channeling the ability, otherwise they continue with whatever action that were doing previously.

Now this would be a welcome change. Not something that can't be avoided by some simple micro though. But still would be welcome if possible.

Interceptor grenades need to stop glitching out

Yes we know. This isn't much of a balance issue now is it...?

Agree that mind blades should be giving at least +30 melee skill. GK rely on their special attacks more than any other faction in the game.

That amount just sounds insane.

[ThongSong]

I do happen to think strike squads scale incredibly well. their justicar is simply awesome. a snare and energy drain all in one? I'll take both please. it pretty much means asms can't pull off a merciless strike or jump out of trouble, it slows banshee rushes, it kills off shields. I can't think of a single thing I dislike about it. and their ability to provide energy to other units means I don't need to take CoA for energy regen purposes if I want a more tanky BC.

and with their psycannon, although 1 psycannon isn't much, a lot of times people will ignore the strike squads and go for the purgation squad instead. even a single psycannon can put on some hurt against transports.

now if people are getting double purgation psycannons, that's just asking to get owned by jump units.

[Black Relic]

Mind Blades. Instead of a melee skill increase it should grant some soft of reactive strike. Keep the damage increase.

Reactive Strike. When the victim is hit by a melee weapon, there is a chance for the attacker to be damaged and knocked back.

And I might test this out. And see how it is. The fire rate of the strike squad is a bit slow though. Do you think it should also lower the cooldown\reload time of the strike squad when you buy the psy-bolt ammo?


The Purgation just need to do AOE courage damage with their incinerators. Doesn't need to be big. Keep the ability the same though.

[Forestradio]

I do happen to think strike squads scale incredibly well. their justicar is simply awesome. a snare and energy drain all in one? I'll take both please. it pretty much means asms can't pull off a merciless strike or jump out of trouble, it slows banshee rushes, it kills off shields. I can't think of a single thing I dislike about it. and their ability to provide energy to other units means I don't need to take CoA for energy regen purposes if I want a more tanky BC.

and with their psycannon, although 1 psycannon isn't much, a lot of times people will ignore the strike squads and go for the purgation squad instead. even a single psycannon can put on some hurt against transports.

now if people are getting double purgation psycannons, that's just asking to get owned by jump units.

Energy Burst itself is pretty good. You just can't use it enough. If the cooldown is going to remain so long, it should have extra affects.

I understand that energy drain is an important mechanic that GK have. It (sorta) helps counter jump troops, and the Brother-Captain's Purified Blades is my favorite accessory for him. Energy drain is also devastating vs tyrant guards.

The SS pyscannon should be replaced with "psy bolt ammunition."

Interceptor constant bugs ARE a balance issue. If a bug prevents a unit from performing in the role it is supposed to perform in, it will be an issue until it was fixed.
The melee techmarine and SM libby not having melee charges was a balance issue until that got fixed.....

Mind blades is never worth using on a ranged unit unless it is the vindicare assassin. Remove the silly ranged damage buff it gives and make it give a higher melee skill bonus, like UYC.

[Broodwich]

I was sorta thinking along the lines of the nemesis focus basically turning the ss into purifiers ala sterns. I like the other idea of psy bolts too. As mentioned I think ss are great t1 but just get hosed beyond that.

Also I like mb on my ss to keep them from getting kb in melee against dedicated squads, but I'm not sure if the cost is worth only ten ms

[Dark Riku]

Interceptor constant bugs ARE a balance issue. If a bug prevents a unit from performing in the role it is supposed to perform in, it will be an issue until it was fixed.

Yes, it's an issue but not a balance one...

The melee techmarine and SM libby not having melee charges was a balance issue until that got fixed.....

Okay? What's your point? Since that wasn't a bug. Their melee charge was just not enabled. If their melee charge is enabled and it doesn't work then it's a bug.

[Bahamut]

I would totally accept purgator squads with psycannon doing 16ish dps per model to even infantry at max range (44 range) as long as they lose their splash damage

[Tex]

What's not to love about mindblades now? That is a really good global. Just in case you didn't realize, Strike squad has 70 ms, so with the global, they are doing +20% damage and have 80ms. Why on Earth is that not enough? Plus one could consider that most times they are under the effect of we are the hammer...

Ever since GK landed in the mod I have been spamming that global, and I will continue to do so.

[Torpid]

well consider this: Firstly no GK units other than the VA need the damage buff. they just don't do enough damage, nor do GK have burst fire AV. So this global is meant for melee. UYC grants +60 melee skill and +35% damage, this grants, for the same red cost (I know orks need it more and UYC is a unique global to the WB). I haven't done extensive testing (so take this with a pinch of salt) but from my anecdotal experience I've found mind blades doesn't necessarily mean your SS are going to beat dedicated melee squads, even with nemmy focus and their justicar. I would rather it granted +20 melee skill so the fights between the SS and other dedicated melee is swung in their favour by the global for sure. I doubt a +10 MS increase would make the SS butcher everything like UYC sluggas.

On another note the SS justicar does have some nice abilities, but you're paying quite a lot for him and despite those abilities the squad itself has very lackluster combat capabilities. In fact most of the time I just use the SS squad to cap since it will be most squads solo from t1 and I need the extra ranged dps plasma gun IST grant.

I don't think the Libby's purge ability is that OP. Given that it's hard to fit such a req-expensive unit into the GK composition and that it possesses very little AV (only complementary via shroud/purge) and that the SM Libby (a comparable unit) has abilities such as veil of time - which definitely overshadows either of the gk libby's upgrades alone, and then gate finishes it off for the equality. I think he's in a good spot - VoT currently lasts 30seconds too. The GK heavy flamers however are very OP, they do way too much damage for such scary squads, they actually are the SM heavy flamers but on melee termies :L

[Forestradio]

I know strike squad have 70 melee skill.

Not sure why you would ever waste mind blades on a ss when you have interceptors and purifiers running around.

[Tex]

Because when I play GK I normally use my SS as melee and transition them into nemesis focus. I hate using them in ranged combat.

[Ar-Aamon]

I pretty much agree with Torpid and Radio. Mind Blades is fine as it is. Rather nerfing UYC (e.g. shorten duration!!) than buffing Mind Blades.

[Tex]

Also, I'm pretty sure UYC gives +30 ms, not +60 right? (I know for sure in retail its +60 though).

[Torpid]

Can't find any changes from the original changelog/beta changelogs that would suggest it doesn't grant +60 MS. The only change is that it costs 75 red, not 100 and it grants +35% damage not +40% and that is found the original changelog that is accessed from the elite homepage.

[Wise Windu]

UYC increases damage by 35% and melee skill by 60.

[Bahamut]

Can't find any changes from the original changelog/beta changelogs that would suggest it doesn't grant +60 MS. The only change is that it costs 75 red, not 100 and it grants +35% damage not +40% and that is found the original changelog that is accessed from the elite homepage.

it does give 35% melee damange and 60 melee skill. It also lasts 25 seconds

[Vapor]

There was definitely a time when the melee skill boost got nerfed. The change was probably reverted though

[Forestradio]

Random replays

Brother Captain vs Force Commander

Brother Captain vs Kommando Nob

[Uncle Milty]

I'll throw my cents in from what i saw from observing 1v1s.

I agree that both purgations and Strike Squad needs some love come t2. Not only are they somewhat underperforming but they lead to very onedimensional t1 that is super strong most of the time, if you dont go for either (meaning 3-4 IST + Interceptors).
I still don't get, why IST are so ridiculously powerful on paper. 210 req for that high speed and damage output with good range even in their vanilla form compared to other t1 units that all cost way more.
Given that one goes for the IST build in t1, it leads usually to the same t2 builds, since there are no strikes or purgations to be upgraded and 3 IST can repair fast -> Dreadnaught incoming. I doubt that it is super fun to play gk, if their performance is most of the time dependend on the very same build with very little alterations in wargear or timing. If the other stuff would get more attractive again due to more scaling and maybe less scaling of IST, we could finally see some more gk fighting on their own and not flooding teamgames with terminators

[Torpid]

Yeah, they are SUPER boring because it's just about kiting, kiting andmore kiting. However, I think that's why IST are on paper so OP. If SM had IST instead of scouts though just imagine how bad the TM would be. No control at all other than devs so they get a jump squad and it's GG. I think that's why IST are so good, they are the main counter to melee for some reason. If IST were nerfed then GK would be absolutely useless given how bad everything is vs melee, especially come t2.

[Uncle Milty]

The problem is that they are not only the main melee counter in t1, they basically counter everything else too because their damage output is insane if teamed up. Support heroes have a hard time making an impact and this build practically forces the opponent to get either jump-troops or grenade launchers. Hell, its not even funny for the opponent when buildorders are set in stone.

[Torpid]

Ah, but that's where you're wrong, build orders aren't set in stone, especially vs GK.

I've been having tremendous success fighting GK as chaos going 2x CSM + 2x AC tics + havocs+anti-melee wargear t1s -> dreadnought + BLs + dual TCSM + autocannon havoc -> LC termies. Not what you would call orthodox.

As apo I like dual snipers, sanguine, tacs, asm, purity rites in t1 -> Libby + razor + t2 devs + power axe. Again, quite unorthodox.

As orks I'm going 2 sluggas+2 shootas+painboy pretty much all the time vs GK.

If GK has done anything with it's introduction it has really opened my mind as to the utility of a lot of underused wargears/units/compositions.

[Forestradio]

I think that IST could use a bit longer reload time, as well as a slight cost increase of their plasma guns.

I use a triple storm, one strike build against stormboyz, combine it with the purified blades wargear and you can bleed them a lot while going t2 relatively soon for purifiers, HB rhino, or GK libby.

Playing Grey Knights can be amusing, although their strategies are somewhat limited.

I'm hoping that the new UI thing that Crumpets came up with will lead to more commanders for them to open up some new stuff.

On a side note: Is it possible to give units that are buildable from the HQ a red cost?
Might be a way to tone down the "march of the terminators" come t3
100 red cost for terminators/paladins would also ensure less hellfire/dark excommunication spamming.

[Dark Riku]

Is it possible to give units that are buildable from the HQ a red cost?

Yes.

[hiveminion]

Just one point from your first post I want to comment on. You mention GK have a hard time in melee. I've tried Nid melee builds vs GK lots of times (in team games though) and I've always been sent home packing. Maybe some bad play on my part, but I certainly don't think GK are helpless in/against melee, particularly t2 onwards.

The BC has amazing close combat upgrades, and Canticle can screw over melee squads that depend on their abilities to win fights (Tics, Stealers, Tyrant Guard). Interceptors+Purifiers is, in my opinion, one of the best melee builds in the game. And t3 GK is almost exclusively melee specialists. Paladins only lose out to LC Terminators I think (which makes me wonder what vanilla GK Termies are good for).

[Bahamut]

GK is needed quite equal with nids in melee. Both fail hard vs ork melee tho. Paladins lose to nobs too, nobs even beat LC termies actually, which is... :/

[Torpid]

Double warriors will end the game in t1, in a 1v1 for any GK assuming the nid doesn't blob them up.