Eldar Ideas

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Thibix Magnus
Level 2
Posts: 118
Joined: Fri 20 Mar, 2015 7:10 pm

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Thibix Magnus » Thu 09 May, 2019 4:35 pm

I can only explain this as DoW1 PTSD, lasting through eras and games
Paranoid Kamikaze
Level 4
Posts: 590
Joined: Tue 02 Feb, 2016 5:12 am

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Thu 09 May, 2019 7:56 pm

I didn't play DoW 1. Tried it but never liked it at all.

My Eldar ideas were only small nerfs in areas needed. No big deal. Snipers doing more damage to heavy armour was done before in retail but was reverted because of how incredibly overpowered it was. Was literally impossible for SM to win in high level games.
User avatar
SarDauk
Level 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu 17 May, 2018 6:27 pm

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby SarDauk » Fri 10 May, 2019 1:57 am

It wasn't 2 patch ago where the reason beyond the falcon's nerf was "making the wraith lord more interesting ?" and now we're talking nerfing it ? I don't get it
"Drive me closer! I want to hit them with my sword!"
User avatar
Oddnerd
Level 4
Posts: 727
Joined: Mon 27 Oct, 2014 1:50 am

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 10 May, 2019 4:36 am

The meta in this game evolves very slowly because of how few players there are, and the fact that the small playerbase is separated into insular cliques who mostly play against each other. Often when a unit is called bad or op, it is because not enough time has passed for the community to collectively figure out how to properly use that unit or identify its counters.
saltychipmunk
Level 4
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu 01 Aug, 2013 3:22 pm

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby saltychipmunk » Mon 13 May, 2019 2:55 pm

Yup. Plus there is a rather considerably divide in what game modes those groups play.

You can almost tell who primarily plays 1v1 games vs those who tend to only enjoy team games. The difference in perspective between those two game-modes is why units like storm-boys are so annoying to balance. Walkers are like that too though. In a 1v1 where units are spread out and there are less units in general a walker is less of a risk. In a team game you are more then likely going to get blind sided by some dudes friend who snuck an av team on your walker's flank.

as for eldar. They keep needing nerfs because they have always had the most fancy game changing abilities. It hard to balance a race that has access to warp throw , time field , the gravity blade etc..
PianoMan
Level 3
Posts: 404
Joined: Fri 30 Jun, 2017 12:40 pm

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby PianoMan » Mon 13 May, 2019 3:31 pm

saltychipmunk wrote:Yup. Plus there is a rather considerably divide in what game modes those groups play.

You can almost tell who primarily plays 1v1 games vs those who tend to only enjoy team games. The difference in perspective between those two game-modes is why units like storm-boys are so annoying to balance. Walkers are like that too though. In a 1v1 where units are spread out and there are less units in general a walker is less of a risk. In a team game you are more then likely going to get blind sided by some dudes friend who snuck an av team on your walker's flank.

as for eldar. They keep needing nerfs because they have always had the most fancy game changing abilities. It hard to balance a race that has access to warp throw , time field , the gravity blade etc..

You couldn't be more wrong with what you said about walkers :l
User avatar
Nurland
Moderator
Posts: 1343
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:25 pm
Location: Eye of Error
Contact:

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Nurland » Tue 14 May, 2019 11:49 am

Well transports are more what dominates 1v1 meta but it is true that having a walker is less risky in than 3s imho.

Depends a bit on map, match up and possible teammates though.
#noobcodex
Laplace's Demon
Level 2
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat 29 Aug, 2015 4:07 am

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Laplace's Demon » Thu 06 Jun, 2019 9:31 pm

Kvn wrote:Channeling runes does get interrupted when the Warlock is knocked down. If it didn't, he probably had his shield up or something like the previous commenter pointed out.

Do we really want to nerf Wraithlords? Wasn't a large part of the 2.8 Falcon nerfs to try to get people to actually buy the Wraithlord since it was used so rarely after the last time it was nerfed? It seems like a bad idea to do this as it suggests things are just going to fall back on themselves with people being forced to buy only the Falcon again, leading to more people complaining that they're seeing too many Falcons, leading to more nerfs to push people to buy Wraithlords.

On a more factual note, nerfing the hp (again) would probably end up dropping the Wraithlord below 1000 hit points, which is a big deal on a frontline walker that's designed to be your tank. Keep in mind that the Wraithlord doesn't have hard-dedicated ranged weapon upgrades, as the Brightlance, while strong, doesn't hit hard enough to really scare anything bigger than a transport, and the Shuri is considerably worse than similar upgrades (such as the Assault Cannon) in sit-and-shoot ranged fights thanks to its scatter.

Wraithbone has already been nerfed on the Lord. If it's regen gets nerfed again, I don't see why anyone would buy it.

As for removing the melee charge, it's a melee walker. That's just a bad idea in my opinion, and it would be a brutal nerf to the Wraithlord's chasing ability. Giving Shuri +accuracy on the move wouldn't really help this as the Shuri's damage output still suffers a bit from the previously mentioned scattering.


Nuance is unwelcome here. The Inquisition will be visiting you shortly.
User avatar
Schepp himself
Level 3
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun 01 Oct, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Schepp himself » Wed 31 Jul, 2019 5:55 pm

So some ideas have found its way into the new version. Here's another idea:

Change the damage type of the seer council to something other than power_weapon.

I think it's a bit sad that if you reach Tier 3 with eldar, you haven't got a good reason to buy a banshee squad over a seer council squad.

With changing and balancing the damage type of the seer council (who haven't got a power weapon in the lore), there could be a reason to get a howling banshee squad even if the game hit Tier 3.

Greets
Schepp himself
Greets schep himself thingy
Kvn
Level 3
Posts: 262
Joined: Wed 29 Jul, 2015 8:04 pm

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Kvn » Wed 31 Jul, 2019 6:10 pm

Schepp himself wrote:So some ideas have found its way into the new version. Here's another idea:

Change the damage type of the seer council to something other than power_weapon.

I think it's a bit sad that if you reach Tier 3 with eldar, you haven't got a good reason to buy a banshee squad over a seer council squad.

With changing and balancing the damage type of the seer council (who haven't got a power weapon in the lore), there could be a reason to get a howling banshee squad even if the game hit Tier 3.

Greets
Schepp himself


Question 1) Why would you choose to buy an extremely fragile T1 melee squad in T3 where, for the most part, they won't be able to survive more than a few stray shots from what an enemy army may be fielding? To me it makes about as much sense as asking to remove Leman Russ av damage to encourage IG to buy more Rocket Sentinels in T3. Yes, a bit of a stretch to compare that, but I hope you get what I'm saying.

Question 2) Who would buy basic melee Seer Council? Since you brought up the lore (btw, in lore the Witchblade/Singing Spear are force weapon equivalents, it is in the tabletop that they are not) I'm assuming you aren't offering to give them heavy melee. SC already are a fragile melee unit that depends on their speed and damage output to put pressure on enemy HI and SHI (especially T3 SHI like Terminators, who wreck most of the Eldar roster other than SC) and giving them basic melee would dramatically lessen their killing power, and would only lead to nobody getting *either* SC or Banshees in T3.

Short version - Banshees are not bought in T3 because they are made of tissue paper and (usually) need levels to survive in the late game. Nerfing SC damage type will not change that, and will only end up hurting the SC.
User avatar
SarDauk
Level 2
Posts: 91
Joined: Thu 17 May, 2018 6:27 pm

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby SarDauk » Wed 31 Jul, 2019 6:10 pm

Schepp himself wrote:So some ideas have found its way into the new version. Here's another idea:

Change the damage type of the seer council to something other than power_weapon.

I think it's a bit sad that if you reach Tier 3 with eldar, you haven't got a good reason to buy a banshee squad over a seer council squad.

With changing and balancing the damage type of the seer council (who haven't got a power weapon in the lore), there could be a reason to get a howling banshee squad even if the game hit Tier 3.

Greets
Schepp himself


I don't see any reason why you should prefer a T1 unit over a T3 unit.
"Drive me closer! I want to hit them with my sword!"
User avatar
Schepp himself
Level 3
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun 01 Oct, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Schepp himself » Wed 31 Jul, 2019 8:07 pm

Kvn wrote:
Schepp himself wrote:...


Question 1) [...]To me it makes about as much sense as asking to remove Leman Russ av damage to encourage IG to buy more Rocket Sentinels in T3. Yes, a bit of a stretch to compare that, but I hope you get what I'm saying.



Yeah, I get what you saying. Made me think. I came to this idea because sometimes unit X get overshadowed by other unit Y because unit y does everything better than unit X so there is no reason to get unit X.

Kvn wrote:Question 2) Who would buy basic melee Seer Council? Since you brought up the lore (btw, in lore the Witchblade/Singing Spear are force weapon equivalents, it is in the tabletop that they are not) I'm assuming you aren't offering to give them heavy melee. SC already are a fragile melee unit that depends on their speed and damage output to put pressure on enemy HI and SHI (especially T3 SHI like Terminators, who wreck most of the Eldar roster other than SC) and giving them basic melee would dramatically lessen their killing power, and would only lead to nobody getting *either* SC or Banshees in T3.

Short version - Banshees are not bought in T3 because they are made of tissue paper and (usually) need levels to survive in the late game. Nerfing SC damage type will not change that, and will only end up hurting the SC.


I didn't want to nerf the SC and played with the idea of heavy melee but settled with ordinary melee. But as said, it's just an idea. I just wanted to bring in the idea to further refine the role of the SC compared to HB.

Greets
Schepp himself
Greets schep himself thingy
Kvn
Level 3
Posts: 262
Joined: Wed 29 Jul, 2015 8:04 pm

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Kvn » Wed 31 Jul, 2019 9:07 pm

Schepp himself wrote:I didn't want to nerf the SC and played with the idea of heavy melee but settled with ordinary melee. But as said, it's just an idea. I just wanted to bring in the idea to further refine the role of the SC compared to HB.

Greets
Schepp himself


There are two alternatives. Giving them heavy melee, which would cause a load of balance issues and outcry from the fact that the quick and high damage SC can now chase down and mulch through tanks, or regular melee which is just a straight nerf as it is dragging them down with (to the best of my knowledge) an objectively worse damage type with no tradeoff to compensate. I understand your reasoning for wanting to differentiate them from Banshees, but you can't really say you aren't looking to nerf them while suggesting that they be heavily nerfed.

Also, as has been pointed out, a T3 unit should be better than its T1 counterpart (to an extent, as there are always certain situations where you'd want to purchase early game units for repair, suppression, etc.) since it is T3 and is considerably more expensive.
Paranoid Kamikaze
Level 4
Posts: 590
Joined: Tue 02 Feb, 2016 5:12 am

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Wed 31 Jul, 2019 11:35 pm

You get Shees for the AoE suppression and AV.
User avatar
Schepp himself
Level 3
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun 01 Oct, 2017 4:42 pm

Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Schepp himself » Tue 06 Aug, 2019 10:37 pm

Okay. Thanks for the sincere feedback on the ideas. #communitylove

Greets
Schepp himself
Greets schep himself thingy

Return to “Balance Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests