Eldar Ideas

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Eldar Ideas

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Thu 02 May, 2019 3:07 am

Warlock Channeling Runes: Seems to have interrupt problems of some kind. I tried interrupting with knockdown and it didn't work. Or with stun. A bit buggy or it doesn't get interrupted near end?

Warlock Warp Throw: Radius is very large. Just stating that as I had a game and found it very large. Meh.

Wraithlord: Nobody gets the Shuri upgrade and the Brightlance can destroy any transport it gets close to so it's too good not to get.Take away Wraith melee charge and make fire on move for Shuri 100% accuracy
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Atlas
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Atlas » Thu 02 May, 2019 5:18 am

I'm Atlas and I approve of these Eldar nerfs.

I can take a look at them if there's issues with abilities on a more serious note.
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Broodwich
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Broodwich » Thu 02 May, 2019 5:48 am

I think it's time for some wraithlord nerfs tbh. It's so cheap to field compared to other walkers, doesn't lose melee resist with ranged upgrades, and has friggin health regen.

Side note, please get rid of the WSE energy regen aura. The WL didn't have a visual indicator, i don't think the WSE needs something either. Especially something that's so obnoxious
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Torpid
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Torpid » Thu 02 May, 2019 5:51 am

I have thought for a long time that warp throw is op. Making its radius of effect smaller so it is actually something you can dodge without retreat would be nice.

Wraithlords are also without a doubt OP atm, the hp regen needs to be quite a bit lower.
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Sex - Murder - Art
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Thu 02 May, 2019 7:45 am

I'm not against hp regen on Wraithlord. It's a unique thing for him, and I would like to keep it. But, its health might be decreased. It might be more fragile, but it can heal himself, so it can have a different trade compared to other walkers. Maybe it can have health regen when there are no enemies around? You know, just like how Lone Hunter buffs LA when thre are no other troops around, similar mechanic. Because it is annoying that Wraithlord gets away with 5-6 hp that came from passive regen.

Dunno about Channeling bugs, but I can say that Warp Throw is not OP. Maybe hard to dodge, or pulls waaaay too much than it should be. Just don't change its range and its effect radius. A decreased pull is acceptable.
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby PianoMan » Thu 02 May, 2019 8:17 am

are you sure he didnt have his shield on ? that would prevent knockback xd
warp throw is the most op wargear in the entire fucking game and only someone incredibly bad can say otherwise even purgs are mild compared to this thing
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby saltychipmunk » Thu 02 May, 2019 12:08 pm

Torpid wrote:I have thought for a long time that warp throw is op. Making its radius of effect smaller so it is actually something you can dodge without retreat would be nice.

Wraithlords are also without a doubt OP atm, the hp regen needs to be quite a bit lower.


I honestly wish all walkers had the staying power of a wraithlord. For the entire existence of the game I always felt walkers were by far the easiest large investment units too lose.

99% of the time a walker is dead the moment its caught out of position or the rest of the army has to retreat which happens far more often than anyone will comfortably admit. Remarkably unforgiving units

Not saying wraithlord is not op, but as far as I am concerned hearing someone complain about it is a welcome change in my book.
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Kvn » Thu 02 May, 2019 2:01 pm

Channeling runes does get interrupted when the Warlock is knocked down. If it didn't, he probably had his shield up or something like the previous commenter pointed out.

Do we really want to nerf Wraithlords? Wasn't a large part of the 2.8 Falcon nerfs to try to get people to actually buy the Wraithlord since it was used so rarely after the last time it was nerfed? It seems like a bad idea to do this as it suggests things are just going to fall back on themselves with people being forced to buy only the Falcon again, leading to more people complaining that they're seeing too many Falcons, leading to more nerfs to push people to buy Wraithlords.

On a more factual note, nerfing the hp (again) would probably end up dropping the Wraithlord below 1000 hit points, which is a big deal on a frontline walker that's designed to be your tank. Keep in mind that the Wraithlord doesn't have hard-dedicated ranged weapon upgrades, as the Brightlance, while strong, doesn't hit hard enough to really scare anything bigger than a transport, and the Shuri is considerably worse than similar upgrades (such as the Assault Cannon) in sit-and-shoot ranged fights thanks to its scatter.

Wraithbone has already been nerfed on the Lord. If it's regen gets nerfed again, I don't see why anyone would buy it.

As for removing the melee charge, it's a melee walker. That's just a bad idea in my opinion, and it would be a brutal nerf to the Wraithlord's chasing ability. Giving Shuri +accuracy on the move wouldn't really help this as the Shuri's damage output still suffers a bit from the previously mentioned scattering.
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Sex - Murder - Art
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Thu 02 May, 2019 3:35 pm

Kvn wrote:Keep in mind that the Wraithlord doesn't have hard-dedicated ranged weapon upgrades, as the Brightlance, while strong, doesn't hit hard enough to really scare anything bigger than a transport, and the Shuri is considerably worse than similar upgrades (such as the Assault Cannon) in sit-and-shoot ranged fights thanks to its scatter.


Good point. Wraihlord keeps melee resistance, but its ranged weapons are not as hardcore as Dreadnought ranged weapons. The real reason why people are going for Brightlance over Shruken is the fear of facing a vehicle, and they want that Brightlance ready for that. Which is still a not real AV weapon like MoT Dread. Its Shruken Cannon is fine, just overshadowed by Brightlance.
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby PianoMan » Thu 02 May, 2019 3:51 pm

wraithlord keeps its melee damage when upgraded with ranged, no other dread does that
and if you're using a wraithlord as a "tank" you probably should just play pc instead :l
both the shuriken and brightlance are a bit op but i get why bad eldar players think otherwise xd
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Thu 02 May, 2019 5:33 pm

And that's the point of Wraithlord. It keeps its melee damage, because it's still a melee unit, not a firehouse like Assault Cannon Dreadnought. While Dreads loose melee resistance, and a little bit of damage (still punches real good) because they are a ranged unit, if they are upgraded that way.

None of the shoulder weapons of Wraithlord are OP. And btw, we haven't seen any proof that show it's OP, right? No replays, no calculations, nothing. So why the whining? Of course, asking for decent arguments from an inbred is a tall order, I get it. But can't say the same for rest of whiners.

Shruken can't kill anything, and mostly overshadowed by Brightlance. And neither Brightlance is OP, because its only effective against cheap and weak vehicles, and yet a weak tool if you consider the price you pay for the whole unit. It is normal for a unit that costs 525 / 130 to kill a weak transport. MoT Dread also can kill a transport if it gets close. Hell, even a melta dread can do that nowadays.

Wraithlord is fine. If you really want to make some changes, focus on its health, health regen, and its cost. Rest of Wraithlord is fine.
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby PianoMan » Thu 02 May, 2019 6:02 pm

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:And that's the point of Wraithlord. It keeps its melee damage, because it's still a melee unit, not a firehouse like Assault Cannon Dreadnought. While Dreads loose melee resistance, and a little bit of damage (still punches real good) because they are a ranged unit, if they are upgraded that way.

None of the shoulder weapons of Wraithlord are OP. And btw, we haven't seen any proof that show it's OP, right? No replays, no calculations, nothing. So why the whining? Of course, asking for decent arguments from an inbred is a tall order, I get it. But can't say the same for rest of whiners.

Shruken can't kill anything, and mostly overshadowed by Brightlance. And neither Brightlance is OP, because its only effective against cheap and weak vehicles, and yet a weak tool if you consider the price you pay for the whole unit. It is normal for a unit that costs 525 / 130 to kill a weak transport. MoT Dread also can kill a transport if it gets close. Hell, even a melta dread can do that nowadays.

Wraithlord is fine. If you really want to make some changes, focus on its health, health regen, and its cost. Rest of Wraithlord is fine.


Buying AC on dread makes you very vulnerable to other walkers or BC, wraithlord doesn't suffer from this while having insane ranged and melee dps, that's one of the reasons its so strong https://dawnofwar.info/esl/match/38126674 >this would never happen to a wraithlord

https://dawnofwar.info/esl/match/38147882 WL shuriken used properly shits on ranged orks, if it shits on ranged orks it will shit on anything else except ig.

The thing about brightlance is that it lets you keep your shuriken unupgraded while also being very potent AV with all the other eldar units :l

I have no idea where all your information comes from, your eldar is low-tier, you post no replays yet you ask for them (????) and then you make bullshit claims :l
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Sex - Murder - Art
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Thu 02 May, 2019 6:52 pm

Well, gonna keep it clean and simple, and end my discussion, idc about the rest.

PianoMan wrote:I have no idea where all your information comes from, your eldar is low-tier, you post no replays yet you ask for them (????) and then you make bullshit claims :l


I have done tons of high level discussions before in real life, and unlike you, I know how things work. Responsibility of proving belongs to the claimer. In this case; people who claims that Wraithlord is OP, have to give us proof, or at least some materials that we can talk about. I can't argue about anything if you don't give me any materials.

And thank you for giving them at your last post.

PianoMan wrote: https://dawnofwar.info/esl/match/38147882 WL shuriken used properly shits on ranged orks, if it shits on ranged orks it will shit on anything else except ig.


You know that Shootaz are just infantry, right? It is pretty normal to shit on them like that. Can't beat everything with it, like Tacs, CSM, Venom Brood, etc. So no, it won't shit on everything. The only problem of Shruken is, being overshadowed by Brightlance. That is it. It is a proper, nice and clean ranged weapon. No need to change that.

PianoMan wrote: Buying AC on dread makes you very vulnerable to other walkers or BC, wraithlord doesn't suffer from this while having insane ranged and melee dps, that's one of the reasons its so strong.


And one of its weakness is that its ranged weapons are not as good as Dreads. You can't compare AC Dread with Shruken WL, because they have different purposes. Here; ranged Dread gets beaten in melee, but it dominates in ranged. WL however is the opposite. Dominates in melee, but weak in ranged. To give in numbers; ranged dread is like 30% melee vs 70% ranged, while WL is 70% melee vs 30% ranged. And that is the point of Wraithlord. It has ranged options, but it still is a melee unit, and thats also the reason why its ranged weapons are not as deadly as Dreads ranged weapons.

To cut it short, WL doesn't have anything wrong in its ranged weapons. Even if there is a problem, that would be in its health or its cost. NOT in its weapons.
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby PianoMan » Thu 02 May, 2019 8:26 pm

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:Well, gonna keep it clean and simple, and end my discussion, idc about the rest.

I have done tons of high level discussions before in real life, and unlike you, I know how things work. Responsibility of proving belongs to the claimer. In this case; people who claims that Wraithlord is OP, have to give us proof, or at least some materials that we can talk about. I can't argue about anything if you don't give me any materials.
.


then why am i a high level player while you're one of the worst ones if you know how things work?
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Kvn » Thu 02 May, 2019 9:34 pm

PianoMan wrote:Buying AC on dread makes you very vulnerable to other walkers or BC, wraithlord doesn't suffer from this while having insane ranged and melee dps


Wraithlord deals 85 dps in melee as opposed to the melee-focused SM and CSM Dred's 100dps. It hits slightly harder per swing (170 vs 150) but attacks much more slowly.

At ranged, Brightlance has 20dps av vs the CSM Dred's 46.15 dps Missile Launcher and 17.78 splash damage anti-all Autocannon. Meanwhile, the Shuri deals 23.33 dps (which doesn't all hit the same target because of scattering) plus an added 12.17 dps from the wrist mounted gun. Compare that to a SM Dred's 55.26 dps Assault Cannon, and even with both the upgrade and the wrist-mounted Shuri, the Wraithlord is only dealing around 2/3 of the SM Dred's damage at range (which, as said, doesn't all hit the same target).

In addition, neither the Brightlance nor the Shuri come with abilities like Emperor's Fist, AC Barrage, Frenzied Barrage, or Blood Rage

Most of this is pretty pointless to compare since the Wraithlord (as said previously) doesn't focus as heavily as the other walkers on specialized combat when equipped with those weapons, but I wanted to point it out since you seem to be under the impression that it is hitting a lot harder than it is.
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 03 May, 2019 1:12 am

Is the codex correct? It says both Wraith and Dread are 4.5 speed. Thought the Wraith was .5 faster.

It also says Shuri is 46.67 dps in upgrades and half that in weapons.

Anyways, since people don't seem to understand my Wraith idea I'll be more detailed. Right now the Brightlance upgrade makes it so if you get anywhere close to a transport you will take it out making it so everyone gets it. Nobody gets the Shuri upgrade. By taking away its charge it makes it so the Wraith will have trouble chasing transports and getting that easy trolly kill. It's a vehicle so it can literally follow it into your base if it wants. By making the Shuri upgrade 100% accuracy on the move it will make it good at chasing infantry, which makes up for the lack of melee charge and makes it good enough to want to purchase.

SM Librarian has no melee charge so it's not like it's unheard of for a melee unit to not have one.

Also, Autarch having a bullshit leap that knocks over Battlecry FC that's supposed to be immune to all knockbacks is bullshit.
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Kvn » Fri 03 May, 2019 1:40 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Anyways, since people don't seem to understand my Wraith idea I'll be more detailed. Right now the Brightlance upgrade makes it so if you get anywhere close to a transport you will take it out making it so everyone gets it. Nobody gets the Shuri upgrade. By taking away its charge it makes it so the Wraith will have trouble chasing transports and getting that easy trolly kill.


Taking away the charge would make it bad at chasing anything. Not just transports. As for the danger it poses to transports, why is that a problem? You get the Missile Dred or the (much) less often seen Melta Dred and drive a transport close to them, it will die just as well.

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:It's a vehicle so it can literally follow it into your base if it wants. By making the Shuri upgrade 100% accuracy on the move it will make it good at chasing infantry, which makes up for the lack of melee charge and makes it good enough to want to purchase.


Diving a base is a very risky proposition unless you've really rushed the vehicle out, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

As for compensating, not really, no. As stated previously, even with just standing and shooting, the Shuri is, in the absolute best case scenario, a worse Assault Cannon without the Barrage ability. What's more, Eldar aren't exactly hurting on piercing dps to begin with, so it isn't usually that necessary for them to buy more of it. Right now, the Brightlance is the safe utility choice to help chase down fast vehicles or give an edge in the Walker vs Walker battles. Shuri is more of a luxury upgrade that you get when you feel safe against enemy vehicles and want to peel off more models while chasing down infantry. Nerfing the ability to chase things will not fix this.

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:SM Librarian has no melee charge so it's not like it's unheard of for a melee unit to not have one.


Librarian isn't really a melee unit so much as he is a support caster that fights in melee. You buy him for his ability to shock enemies and teleport/speed up allies more than for his ability to punch people. Not so with the Wraithlord.

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Also, Autarch having a bullshit leap that knocks over Battlecry FC that's supposed to be immune to all knockbacks is bullshit.


Autarch leap cannot knock over a Force Commander under Battlecry. Source: have played Eldar since the release of Retribution, have played against many FCs, and buy Autarch a lot. It's always a bit of a panic moment when you try to knock him over to finish him off only for him to hit the Battlecry just in time and then knock you over instead.
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Broodwich
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Broodwich » Fri 03 May, 2019 5:04 am

I think WL just need a price increase. All factions' melee walkers have their strengths, but WL is 20 power cheaper with lower upkeep
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PianoMan
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby PianoMan » Fri 03 May, 2019 8:39 am

Stop comparing units and stop comparing t2 abilities of other races to eldar
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Antandron » Fri 03 May, 2019 10:01 am

Units are only OP/UP in relation to other units.

If they weren't, then Wraithlords are always OK because "weak Eldar T3" or some other bad reason.

Is WL Shuriken upgrade really only 0.5 fotm? Every other Walker weapon is 1.0 fotm btw.
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Torpid » Fri 03 May, 2019 10:51 am

SM libby does have a melee charge...?
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 03 May, 2019 7:36 pm

Did some quick tests. Libby does have a melee charge. Probably changed from retail and I just never noticed. Autarch knocks over shield FC but not Battlecry FC.
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sun 05 May, 2019 6:47 am

Take away the 30% extra damage vs heavy armour from sniper types. Way too damn painful.
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Phoenix » Sun 05 May, 2019 9:44 am

Given that Battle Cry grants immunity to all knockbacks and Iron Halo grants immunity to only weapon knockback, yes it is intended that the Autarch leap with its light weapon knockback can knock your Iron Halo FC over.
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Nurland » Sun 05 May, 2019 3:02 pm

Good God. Please no no 100% fotm shuri WL.

Not sure BL WL is too strong either. But I don't have a very strong opinion on this one.

I am not in favour of making WL lose its melee charge either.

If WL needs nerfs I'd say hp regen and cost are things you need to look at.

Warp throw could take a small nerf to its radius, yes.

I have always been puzzled why some u its have that weird light weapon kb. Iirc the knob shotgun standard attack has it or used to have it as well with.
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Asmon
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Asmon » Sun 05 May, 2019 10:48 pm

Relic created light weapon knockback for all the eldar leaping units. At first it was the WL and the Guardian Exarch and the SC. Then the autarch got it with retribution. Later the WL lost his leap but the guardian exarch retained it, with the funny upside of being able to knock down bubble fc.

In Elite WL got his leap back with weapon kb and the DA exarch has lost his leap.

Back on topic, as I told Kami during our game: channeling runes tend to bug out after a while. If it goes for long enough, then the channeling will remain even if you knock back the WL. After a few tests it doesn't seem to happen everytime, so I'm not sure what triggers it. But it's certainly a bug.

You can avoid most of warpthrow's dragging with a good use of cover (and eldar shields) if your units really have to stand in place.
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby boss » Mon 06 May, 2019 4:40 pm

You know for a Eldar ideas post seems just nerf eldar stuff again.

Warlock has gotten so many nerfs as it is and now you want some more channeling I never seen it bug out at all kb stop its, only stuns don't stop him which when he start's channeling but meh.

Warp throw how many times this wargear got change and still people want nerfs for it warlock already had one of his wargears completely reworked and at this rate warp throw will be going that way as well.

Wraithlord
you know falcon got nerfed to make wraithlord brought once and awhile and now nerf wraithlord....................... you know stop crying and deal with it for once.

Should also rename this to Nerf eldar
Forums great more shit to talk about.
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Toilailee » Mon 06 May, 2019 5:05 pm

nerf eldar
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Atlas » Mon 06 May, 2019 6:20 pm

Toilailee wrote:nerf eldar


All that needs to be said really. Also, when are we nerfing Guardian Weapon Teams?
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Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Eldar Ideas

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Mon 06 May, 2019 7:23 pm

Toilailee wrote:nerf eldar


Finally someone gets me.

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