Vindicare Assassin Balance discussion

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

Hello fellow community.

I am concerned about this unit again. His Anti-Vehicle capabilities still seem over the top and his mobility is still too great for him to be considered balanced, yesterday I was playing Orks vs GK in a 2v2, now the main issue I'm going to address is that his VA managed to get away from fully upgraded sluggas after I caught him in melee using Hide da Boyz three times in a row, nearly chasing him into his base each time, he gets away with maybe 10% of his HP.
Now, I don't know how you guys would look at this scenario but I think he needs a short tear down time like the other snipers have as well, also maybe a health reduction with his current HP upgrade, just seem to give him a little too much HP also considering that he can level giving him even more HP.

We can talk about him having Infiltration as soon as that Sync Error is fixed.

[ChrisNihilus]

The VA have already his heaviest weakness in the low Health.

Lower his HP will only make the unit risky in a non-pleasant way.
A game like this don't want an important unit, one that can dictate the win or a loss of an entire game, that can easily die for a miss-click, a distraction, lag-spike or the IA acting weirdly.

I don't know it VA is balanced or not, but if he it isn't, nerfing the HP is the worst nerf it can have.

[Lag]

On the other hand, with infiltration he would be the same as CoH1 snipers which worked pretty fine even with their extremely low HP.

[Caeltos]

On the other hand, with infiltration he would be the same as CoH1 snipers which worked pretty fine even with their extremely low HP.

Huh? CoH1 snipers were brutally stupid and blatanly dumb. It was a reason they were reworked into what they are now in COH2.

It's the CoH2 stealth-mechanic that the VA will actually have similiar traits to, and funny enough - I didn't even think about until afterwards. It was mostly the chameleon effect of their suits, that allow them to blend into terrain.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

Maybe directly lowering his health is a bad idea but then maybe lower the health he gets from the upgrade, I still believe he needs a short tear down time like the other snipers, after all this sniper can do AV damage.

I still want to point out when he has the health upgrade it takes at least 3 Sniper hits to kill him, when he is level 2 or 3 that might be 4 hits. So he isn't as weak as you're saying.

[Lag]

On the other hand, with infiltration he would be the same as CoH1 snipers which worked pretty fine even with their extremely low HP.

Huh? CoH1 snipers were brutally stupid and blatanly dumb. It was a reason they were reworked into what they are now in COH2.

The only problem that the community ever had with that unit is taking cover before shooting. After that was fixed they were pretty much deemed op.

[HandSome SoddiNg]

VA doesn't do Rear-armor hits ,take note. His Weakness alone is his HP and him having set-up timing ,he get easily swarm by meele units or flesh hooked .

[Kvek]

VA doesn't do Rear-armor hits ,take note. His Weakness alone is his HP and him having set-up timing ,he get easily swarm by meele units or flesh hooked .

The setup time is not enough for melee units to get near him, he's extremly mobile and if you have the hp upgrade he can survive a guo flesh hook and two hits from a guo, may be one though (right forestradio?!?!?!?!)

And if he doesn't do rear armor hits, then that's probably a bug

[Sub_Zero]

he get easily swarm by meele units or flesh hooked .

Wait a second. You want to say that a unit with a high mobility and no setup time (won't tire to say that his current setup time is a mockery) is vulnerable to melee? What about havocs, brightlances, devastators, loota boyz, heavy weapon teams? They can be forced off by any squad in the game. This little annoying fella can stay on the field way longer than them and he is able to hunt down any vehicle. He is like devastators under veil of time buff + sniper scouts.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Honestly, and with all the respect for the Lulgrim/dev work to design/implement the "Infiltration in cover" passive effect, I see it quite unnecessary. The Vindicare Assasin already have a great synergy with the GK Librarian, which can give the awesome Invisiblity + damage buff combo. In addition, is causing problems. (Synchronization problem)

[Forestradio]

VA doesn't do Rear-armor hits ,take note. His Weakness alone is his HP and him having set-up timing ,he get easily swarm by meele units or flesh hooked .

The setup time is not enough for melee units to get near him, he's extremly mobile and if you have the hp upgrade he can survive a guo flesh hook and two hits from a guo, may be one though (right forestradio?!?!?!?!)

And if he doesn't do rear armor hits, then that's probably a bug

That was one of the greatest troll moments of all time.

You GUO hooked my VA into a GUO, a plague fist, and a squad of heretics, and he still got away!

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

You can easily flesh hook any single-model unit and possibly get a wipe if you have the right army composition, this guy can even manage to get out of troubles like this, you should try to look at other units in the game and see how vulnerable they are to similar attacks, why should a unit with such high AV capabilities be able to get out of trouble easier than others?

[Arthel]

OK here we go...

Theory & Design
GK had the weakest AV of any race: they relied on kiting las-rhinos and relying on a light vehicle for your AV is not a good idea in my books, even if it can be effective. The Vindicare helps solve this problem by his high-damage AV rounds. He also adds serious bleeding power; this is more than any other sniper unit yes, but from a T2 unit that basically needs 60 power investment in total, and is possibly the most micro-intensive unit in the game, this seems totally fine and actually rather nicely implemented.


AV
Biggest bone of contention over this unit. Put simply, I could accept a small damage tweak but that's it - he is strong, but he is meant to be strong as long-range AV yes? And is he really that much better than other races' AV? And isn't this GK, whose T2 AV is close to nonexistent without him? (answers: yes, no, yes)

The Vindicare Assassin also has much shorter range than other snipers and other AV.
Recently his sight range got a reduction as well

[sk4zi]

i think the shots of him should be more visible ... e.g. the AV rounds should look like a high powered Ranger shot ore something similar ...

often its not easy to see him.

[DarkGod]

Personally, I feel the VA is a great unit, but it is very situation orientated. For example, I have a game I played today where my VA took down 3 chaos dreads and a baneblade. Obviously, he got lots of support, but he always ran ahead and took the killing shot.

The upgrade that gives him extra health and health regen is amazing if you are the one with the VA. My VA got jumped by level 2 Vanguard Veterans, and they got his melee path twice... and he survived. Of course, if this was real w40k lore, then it is perfectly realistic. The members of Clade Vindicare are infamous for their antics... then again if this was real w40k lore a tactical squad could tear gaurdsmen squads and heroes to pieces

Another game, he was in deep behind enemy lines and the Plague Champion walked by him. He had the Mark of Nurgle, so my vindi took some damage. No problem, he just regenerated. He was spotted however, and one punch from level 5 plague champion with power fist in retreat path spelled the end of him.

I think these examples show how the Vindi is very situation orientated. The fact his AV shots no longer snare went a long way to balancing him, and his really short range further improved his balance stats.

DoW2 logic: lord general who no scopes has longer ranged than genetically engineered assassin from birth who uses his scope

[Orkfaeller]

DoW2 logic: lord general who no scopes has longer ranged than genetically engineered assassin from birth who uses his scope

The difference is caused by the Mustache, somehow, I think.

[DarkGod]

Even xenos and heretics fall before the power of... FACIAL HAIR *cue dramatic music*

[Toilailee]

DoW2 logic: lord general who no scopes has longer ranged than genetically engineered assassin from birth who uses his scope

The difference is caused by the Mustache, somehow, I think.

True dat

[Arbit]

DoW2 logic: lord general who no scopes has longer ranged than genetically engineered assassin from birth who uses his scope

The difference is caused by the Mustache, somehow, I think.

The tips of his Mustache extend down and help steady the rifle. Just think how good of a shot he'd be if he put down his sword and used two hands + Mustache.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

if it were flat, with more surface area on the top, it could act as a spoiler at high speeds. would probably have to stick past the sides of his face though.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

DoW2 logic: lord general who no scopes has longer ranged than genetically engineered assassin from birth who uses his scope

The difference is caused by the Mustache, somehow, I think.

Yeah man, he hunts hive tyrants just so that he can pull out one of their horns just so he can carve it out into a comb to comb his manstache.

Personally, I've seen a lot less of him lately. I'm not sure if it was a "Flavor" of the month kind of thing when he first came out (coupled with his absurd strength of course), but I never see him thrown out in T2. Even more so in team games, where I'd feel he'd be able to get away with his absurdity even more so than usual because of the walls of meatshields ahead of him.

But then again, perhaps it's because of that sync bug (is it still going on?)

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Ive been throughly testing gk lately and will soon be making a thread for them. honestly in a competetive scene i think vindicare is a requirement in 1v1. he is ur only reliable source of av in t2, pair him with interceptor nades and they work well. he can also go back to infantry later

[Torpid]

He's such an awkward unit. He can't be any more expensive or GK would become completely unviable, but I dislike it so much how his mere presence in the GK roster makes transport play vs GK totally pointless...

[Forestradio]

Ive been throughly testing gk lately and will soon be making a thread for them. honestly in a competetive scene i think vindicare is a requirement in 1v1. he is ur only reliable source of av in t2, pair him with interceptor nades and they work well. he can also go back to infantry later

when the interceptor nades don't derp out and get you whole squad wiped, then yes it works well.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

The Cameleon Stealth suit only works "properly" without crashing if you purchase it first then the 'Extended Operations' in that order, however there is a small chance the game will get a De-sync error while getting the second upgrade, still making the upgrade unreliable as you have to buy both upgrades and as you only have the Cameleon suit it may crash if the ability activates.

If you get Extended Operations first then the Cameloen suit not only will the ability not work as intended but the chance of a De-sync error is very potent.

I still think it would be best if the mechanic got changed as it's still unreliable.
Perhaps change it to a Infiltrated while idle?