Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Element » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 4:58 am

I was playing a game with Ruthless at Heart today upon the reskinned version of Greentooth Gorge, I was ahead in T1 by at least 100+ V.P.'s , had great map control, fantastic positioning, and then *A Wild Lictor Appears*--> uses flesh hook upon the sergeant model of my scout squad and pulls him in, and within a relative 1-1.5s., decide to retreat the unit so as to not to take too many losses from what is an absolutely worse situation than having lost just the sergeant, which is what happens next---> All the damage of all the other units upon that one model spilling out onto the other models of the squad, which are totally up the field, there is absolutely no way they would ever be caught, but then... they all start dieing because, welp, sergeant dies last and now all the front lead models die, while this scout sergeant is completely swarmed by tyranids.--> Causes the wipe of a fully upgraded shotgun scout squad, and given that the Lictor can flesh hook outside the range of (The Scout Sergeants detector radius) there is no counter. I mean seriously like what the heck is that? 40 power just out the door, no counter? that's absolutely ridiculous. I mean truly, that's just absolutely absurd. Simply put I understand the whole matter of sniping out I.C. amongst units but we all know that the Sergeant needs to be die last for the scouts, otherwise they would just end up taking too many losses and become grossly inefficient which leads to the next natural conclusion other than *Some Play Better Satirical Post* which is the Lictor Alpha should not have the ability to sniper out I.C.'s within squads due to a matter of sheer game balance, unless it can be technically situated where once models are out of a certain range of being able to take damage/then they become immune to taking damage. I don't know if that is possible, now if that is, I'm all for it, but if it isn't then simply put you just can't have that kind of mechanic for the Lictor Alpha around in the game. It's just totally game breaking. No other Faction has the means to snipe out I.C.'s like that. I mean I understand allowing the Lictor Alpha to retain the ability to snipe out 1 model unit I.C.'s but if there in a squad, I just cannot support such a measure of play, because simply put, it just throws off engagements entirely when the objective becomes (exploit said A mechanic to wipe a squad once having massed your units around your Lictor Alpha to put in mass amounts of damage to that squad and take out the remaining models.) It's not even about cheating, that is just plain smart at the end of the day, to bypass the whole mechanic all together and play for ways to break the game in such a sense, but I can't necessarily say we will all be playing this game for much longer given that becomes the (Meta) of Exploiting game mechanics beyond the account of measure of game balance as opposed to addressing them, which is the whole purpose of this Mod in itself.

Well, I definitely feel a part of me was quite incited by this whole debacco, but I hope none of you take my tenacity towards the subject matter with angst. The only reason I am bringing up the issue is because I believe it to be relevant to everyone who still plays this game and cares out about game balance, if not I wouldn't say anything and just allow all the broken aspects to pile up until they overwhelming ran the game into the ground because nobody seemed to look to do anything about it, at which point, what would be best at least for me, is to look elsewhere for meaningful gameplay.
Last edited by Element on Tue 23 Apr, 2019 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Atlas » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 5:31 am

That block of text is unbreakable :X

But basically, you lost your scouts to a flesh hook and it sucks, is that the gist?
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 6:14 am

Lictor hooked his Scout Sarge and then since Sarge dies last as damage is spread out his entire squad wiped. I only made it halfway through the block but that is the basics of it.

It's a really annoying actual problem. There are ways you can save it with disruption or a heal but you may not always have those available. One idea is 10% reduced on shared damage or something.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 7:05 am

Dude for fucks sake write these posts smaller. You have been doing this since you came here. You are explaining something which could be written with only 3-5 sentences, but no, you have to make it 20-30 sentences.

Thats why I'm just ignoring what you are writng every time. I don't even know what are you complaining about right now because I skiped whatever you said there. And I will keep doing it as long as you keep writing unnecesseryly long posts like this.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Antandron » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 3:49 pm

Die-last is a bullshit mechanic and only exists because of Flesh Hook apparently.

The solution is this:
a. nerf Fleshhook so that it can't be (overly) abused or exploited vs squad leaders. maybe range 30 so that range 40 detection units can detect the LA before being flesh hooked.
b. give LA more hp and/or damage to compensate for the nerfed Flesh Hook.
c. remove die-last.
d. reprice squad leaders.
e. 1/2 price reinforcements for squad leaders.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 6:09 pm

I dont know if this can be done in the coding, but instead of dying last, models could die and a new one could replace a vanilla squad member (the way they do with plasma guns and big shootas).
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Element » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 7:12 pm

Die-last is a bullshit mechanic and only exists because of Flesh Hook apparently.

The solution is this:
a. nerf Fleshhook so that it can't be (overly) abused or exploited vs squad leaders. maybe range 30 so that range 40 detection units can detect the LA before being flesh hooked.
b. give LA more hp and/or damage to compensate for the nerfed Flesh Hook.
c. remove die-last.
d. reprice squad leaders.
e. 1/2 price reinforcements for squad leaders.


I actually considered that option of increasing the sight the radius way beyond the Lictor Alpha's infiltration, and appreciate the way in which you are thinking about solving the matter, Anrandron, though the one problem I found in doing so is that you would totally be negating the whole purpose of playing the Lictor regarding having the Infiltration ability/still does not negate the whole account of the matter that is The Lictor can still pull in a squad wipe using this mechanic whenever the Lictor does happen to be in range to use the ability. I considered infiltration as a purchase choice as a means to hide away your scouts from infiltration flesh hooks, but then I came to the concousion that while it would be functional to an extent; Why is that I have to purchase an upgrade so as to counteract a broken mechanic. Not to mention that would mean, I would find myself not always having the energy to use my other abilities from other purchases, given the enrgy drain being coming from using infiltration, perhaps at times where I wouldn't normally be doing so in order to counteract that of the said broken mechanic.

I dont know if this can be done in the coding, but instead of dying last, models could die and a new one could replace a vanilla squad member (the way they do with plasma guns and big shootas).


This sounds really good actually if its applicable and doesnt cause problems where it seems you would have to "kill" a sergeant health model for each scout which drops from the squad as a result of it, as the sergeant replaces the next member, after the 1st model is lost.
Last edited by Element on Fri 05 Apr, 2019 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Atlas » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 7:55 pm

Oddnerd wrote:I dont know if this can be done in the coding, but instead of dying last, models could die and a new one could replace a vanilla squad member (the way they do with plasma guns and big shootas).


That happens with wargears, not entities. I mean, maybbbbbe if you made detection a wargear instead of a unit attribute but that's so much workkkkk. Like, why?

Honestly, this whole thread is now starting to sound like pure salt at this point. An LA player did exactly what his hero was good at and earned a squad kill because, from what I read, you thought detection would protect you from such sniping tactics. We've already nerfed Hook's pull strength and it's damage and we nerfed LA's energy economy in general a while back. Should we just remove the ability all-together? And if so, what about HotW or Mind War or all this other stuff that can capitalize on die last leaders?

Like, you do realize how massive a rework removing the die-last mechanic is for what is, honestly, a pretty minimal gain right? Some squads are actually balanced with their leaders in mind so it's not like just repricing them will fix that totally either.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Element » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 8:10 pm

And if so, what about HotW or Mind War or all this other stuff that can capitalize on die last leaders?


While Im actually not familiar with the first accronym you typed in, Mind War doesn't pull your Dies last leader into a Horde of the other units with extraordinary high burst spike damage dealinf capabilities/The range is much less on that abilitity.

And you say it's a tactic, The tactic involves--> killing off a squad leader which I am ok with, though naturally not very fond of given no other faction can target squad leaders with such reliability as such, that being said, the broken aspect comes into play when it subjects that model momentarily to astronomical amounts of damage which will then in turn spread onto other models of that particular squad, which is no where close to represented by any other faction other than perhaps the G.U.O's ability which doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed, more rather that it's so rare for that unit to hit the field, there's very little to talk about given the manner of consistancy of usage, unlike that of the Lictor Alpha.

And I cannot call killing an almost full health upgraded scout squad little gain, given their critical importance in the S.M. roster./This match up as would relate to being the only counter detector unit to the infiltration unit which is completely negating the point of them even
being a detector unit./The reliability which lies in the cosistency of setting up such engagements.
Last edited by Element on Fri 05 Apr, 2019 9:30 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Antandron » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 8:46 pm

Salt free here. I just like contributing balance ideas, can't help myself.

Die-last:
a. looks ridiculous when a squad leader tanks damage and distributes it evenly to other models
b. only exists because of Flesh Hook
c. is an advantage for factions that use squad leaders
d. is an inconsistency in the game. some squad leaders are die-last, some are not. why? not sure.

Squad leader pricing is easy:

a. base model cost
plus
b. improvements over the base model
plus
c. abilities (detection, grenades, FoF, etc.)
plus
d. squad improvements (SL providing increased range, hp or damage)
then
e. set reinforce cost as 1/2 purchase cost.
Last edited by Antandron on Fri 05 Apr, 2019 9:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Nurland » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 9:36 pm

Did the die last mechanic get added because of flesh hook? I can't remember since that has been in game for like 9 years or something.

Anyhow, removing die last squad leaders even with 1/2 would be a massive nerf. Not only because the leader dies but also because the squad bleeds more without the mechanic.

So it would be a massive rework at least. Not sure how easy it would be to rebalance that.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 9:52 pm

I suspected the wargear swap change would be difficult to code. I think flesh hooking dies-last models is like telespammer, where it's obvious cheese but it's been part of the game for so long that trying to fix it is more difficult than just learning to work around it. It's annoying but it by no means is a guaranteed game winner.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Atlas » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 11:03 pm

Antandron wrote:Salt free here. I just like contributing balance ideas, can't help myself.

Die-last:
a. looks ridiculous when a squad leader tanks damage and distributes it evenly to other models
b. only exists because of Flesh Hook
c. is an advantage for factions that use squad leaders
d. is an inconsistency in the game. some squad leaders are die-last, some are not. why? not sure.

Squad leader pricing is easy:

a. base model cost
plus
b. improvements over the base model
plus
c. abilities (detection, grenades, FoF, etc.)
plus
d. squad improvements (SL providing increased range, hp or damage)
then
e. set reinforce cost as 1/2 purchase cost.


There is only one faction in the game that doesn't have squad leaders and it has its own racial mechanics. The only non-detecting die-last leaders I can think of are the GM leaders the IST leaders and the Ops Sarge. The former two are absolutely vital to the squad while the latter three can have arguments made about it.

And no, squad pricing is only easy from the literal point of view. You keep engaging in this reductionist theory of boiling it all down to a req and power cost but there's just no compelling reason to do so or even believe that non-cost attributes can even be assigned a fixed cost.

I'm hesitant to ever endorse a rework of the squad leader mechanics because there's SO much risk involved and it's ultimately just trying to target a set of very specific abilities and wargears. It's just not worth it. This is what I mean by a "massive rework for minimal gain" earlier.

Look, I get it. I know this thread was made because it sucks to lose your squad like that. I can see where someone would ask for damage resistance on the model hooked or sh*t like that and maybe a discussion can happen around some idea like that. But I'm just going to tell you that a global change to squad leaders is not happening unless the situation changes. A lot.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Torpid » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 5:09 am

Annnd in spite of everything everyone still thinks the LA is the weakest nid hero in 3v3. And a lot of people would say he's up there even in 1v1. And even outside of nids, very few people consider the LA top tier anymore...

So re-hauling the key feature of the hero, or every single leader's features for the LA seems waaaaaaay out of proportion...
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Antandron » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 8:13 am

Atlas wrote:And no, squad pricing is only easy from the literal point of view. You keep engaging in this reductionist theory of boiling it all down to a req and power cost but there's just no compelling reason to do so or even believe that non-cost attributes can even be assigned a fixed cost.


Ahh but Atlas, EVERYTHING can be assigned a cost as I had shown in the thought experiment involving proAI playing infinite games.

I would work like this:
a. run infinite games of ProAI vs ProAI using the current patch, then evaluate win rates. Are all MUs 50-50 or close enough? If not, adjust prices of various units, wargear, upgrades and squadleaders.
b. repeat infinite times for infinite combinations of price adjustments for units,wargear, upgrades and squadleaders.
c. Stop when the average deviation from 50-50 win rates is at a minimum. Some MUs might be 50-50 and some maybe be 49-51 but this is the best that can be done in an asymmetrical game.
d. Eventually every unit, wargear, upgrades and squadleader would have a cost that resulted in close to 50-50 win rates across all MUs.

Although this is only a theory, it proves (imo at least) that costs can be assigned to all units, squad leaders, upgrades, abilites and wargear. From this we can also take a stab at guessing at some principles that would assist in finding out the correct unit prices. These "correct prices" are a mystery to us as we don't have ProAI playing infinite games but it's possible to get close. I think this is why I'm so keen on unit comparisons as it's the most accurate method available. It is very reductionist, you are right about that, but what better method is there? Allowances can be made for some units to fill compositional holes, but the starting point should be direct unit comparisons.

Once you have a set of principles, it is very easy to identify possible imbalances in factions. Without principles, it's all guesswork and random speculation.

e.g.
If you agree with the principle of "better units cost more" or "better models cost more" then you have a hard time explaining why an Interceptor costs 150/20 while an Interceptor Justicar costs 90/15. They are identical models except the Justicar provides improved teleport. How does this make sense? If you agree that "better units cost more" and that violating this rule without good reason = imbalance then you have to agree that imbalances are everywhere in the costs of squad leaders. The only possible explanation I can think of is that because SLs have to be rebought at full cost, which is a strange design decision by someone as 1/2 cost reinforcements are the norm for nearly all units. Even if this were true, and SLs got a slight discount because they have to be rebought for full cost, how is the Kasrkin Sargeant 80/25?

Purifier Justicar 90/25
Kasrkin Sargeant 80/25
Ogryn Bone'Ead 100/25
ASM Sargeant 100/25
Raptor AC 100/25

Torpid wrote:So re-hauling the key feature of the hero, or every single leader's features for the LA seems waaaaaaay out of proportion...


You are right, adding die-last to 7 of 27 squad leaders just to try and balance flesh hook is way out of proportion.

/salt
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Nurland » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 9:27 am

The mod did not add the die last leaders. I am not sure what were the original reasons for adding this mechanic to them. Do you have some insight in this (ie. do you remember reading the patch notes when some leaders became die-last)?
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby boss » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 11:16 am

Last time I checked die last leaders was added in retail cos having to pay 25 power for detection that can just get snipe not just from flesh hook is bullshit aka shoota leaders and scout leaders not so bad for other races that have squads for detection.

If you think flesh hook bad in elite should play retail again and see what worse seeing your leader get pull all the way across the screen, think its only a problem for scout leader cos he garbage for his cost 25 power for him wtf he barely worth 15 power let alone 25 power.


Don't think squad price that hard to do and your hardly the one to talk about theory shit atlas you made up "standardized upkeep" to fit your ideas shame that got blown up :lol: if you just use some comon sense squad price not that hard to do but then again comon sense elite mod wtf is this.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Asmon » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 1:05 pm

The mechanic was created by relic along the IG race, for all their leader-die-lasts squads, especially needed for guardsmen but very bs for catachans.

Then Boss is right. The mechanic was also implented to several squads by relic after everyone complained their scout sarge/aspiring champion/shoota Nob got fleshhooked and murdered. Then everyone was complaining their scout sarge/aspiring champion/shoota Nob got fleshhooked and THE WHOLE SQUAD murdered.

A classic relic bs. At this point they could've looked into a good way to reinforce your squad leader for cheap, or the messy but easy way I have ALWAYS spoken about: the first leader purchase unlocks an ability that grand a squad leader for cheap. It is easy to implement and only relies on player being aware, when the leader dies, not to repay it at full price by cliking the wrong upgrade.

Now we're stuck with a mechanic that has more flaws than advantages, but would indeed, as Atlas highlighted, require a heavy balance rework if it were to be removed. I'd be glad to hop in the balance wagon and help to address this mess, even if it takes a few months.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Oddnerd » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 1:59 pm

Didn't LA have flesh hooks back before IG were even a thing?
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Antandron » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 2:50 pm

boss wrote:Don't think squad price that hard to do and your hardly the one to talk about theory shit atlas you made up "standardized upkeep" to fit your ideas shame that got blown up :lol: if you just use some comon sense squad price not that hard to do but then again comon sense elite mod wtf is this.


Will you give up on this. Standardised upkeep makes sense.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby boss » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 3:51 pm

Antandron wrote:
boss wrote:Don't think squad price that hard to do and your hardly the one to talk about theory shit atlas you made up "standardized upkeep" to fit your ideas shame that got blown up :lol: if you just use some comon sense squad price not that hard to do but then again comon sense elite mod wtf is this.


Will you give up on this. Standardised upkeep makes sense.


No I will keep shittalking bad ideas and for once I was defending you don't make me regret it
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Black Relic » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 5:09 pm

Oddnerd wrote:Didn't LA have flesh hooks back before IG were even a thing?


I think so. I remember in dow 2 vanilla scout serg constantly dying before the rest of the squad. Maybe i am imaging it.

How about a possible so some die last models make them immune to a certain type of KB when there is at least one no_leader model in the squad. Make the Flesh hook do that type of KB. SO it effects everyone else normally except those few leaders like scout sergs.

There problem solved.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Nurland » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 5:34 pm

Yeah... So a flesh hook to a leader would do fuck all. That doesn't sound exactly like a great idea either.

LG already gets repurchased retinue members at a discount so I would imagine that making squad leaders rebuy cost reductions should be possible. The problem that causes is that is is a nerf to those squads in all other scenarios so it should be somewhat compensated
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Atlas » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 6:20 pm

Antandron wrote:Ahh but Atlas, EVERYTHING can be assigned a cost as I had shown in the thought experiment involving proAI playing infinite games.

...

e.g.
If you agree with the principle of "better units cost more" or "better models cost more" then you have a hard time explaining why an Interceptor costs 150/20 while an Interceptor Justicar costs 90/15. They are identical models except the Justicar provides improved teleport. How does this make sense?

...

But an interceptor doesn't cost 150/20, it costs 75/10 the reinforce cost. You can't buy an "interceptor model" like you can a justicar. The squad purchase is just an initial cost and the reason reinforce costs are there is because the core of the game relies around incentives for squad preservation. Squad leaders are neat, but not essential aspects of the game as they're ultimately just a type of squad upgrade. The only ones that ARE essential in any sense, the detection sources and the GM ones, are given the die last status. The OM leaders made die last are just there to try and make them more usable ultimately. As I said earlier, a discussion on them can be made imo.

boss wrote:Don't think squad price that hard to do and your hardly the one to talk about theory shit atlas you made up "standardized upkeep" to fit your ideas shame that got blown up :lol: if you just use some comon sense squad price not that hard to do but then again comon sense elite mod wtf is this.

Brah, staph you're just getting emotional about this at this point :lol: If you think you got it right, go to retail's rbf files for the units and note their upkeep values. You might be surprised how similar they are accounting for pop. I wasn't there when Relic made the game and decided upkeep values and, btw, I've been the only one to propose an alternative to my own "theory" that, again, had been listed on the site's Glossary since before I even downloaded Elite.

I honestly don't know why both you and Antandron think I created this concept. My best claim is I came up with the term for it.

Nurland wrote:LG already gets repurchased retinue members at a discount so I would imagine that making squad leaders rebuy cost reductions should be possible. The problem that causes is that is is a nerf to those squads in all other scenarios so it should be somewhat compensated

That's exactly what I was thinking when I ran an experiment on the idea. I couldn't get it to work exactly right but I've been improving as a Cope's coder so I might have success on a second run. I'm thinking another way we could do it is to just replace the upgrade with a new squad leader upgrade at half cost. But that would basically x2 the number of squad leader upgrades which is a bit ugly under the hood.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Black Relic » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 6:56 pm

Nurland wrote:Yeah... So a flesh hook to a leader would do fuck all. That doesn't sound exactly like a great idea either.

LG already gets repurchased retinue members at a discount so I would imagine that making squad leaders rebuy cost reductions should be possible. The problem that causes is that is is a nerf to those squads in all other scenarios so it should be somewhat compensated



Actually i said to only to die last squad leaders so scouts serg and GMs and shoots nobs thats about it.. Damage would still be there just no KB on the leaders only. It would still do work just not an instant shut down a squad because now you have to target a kill able model to get the KB. Bleed is still there. The entire point of Flesh hook getting nerfs way back when was due to the insane damage and KB it did and was strictly used on die last models. Making wiping easy on getting a range squad to fall back with one ability.

And secondly. Repurchasing work on LG because he is a hero. You cannot really allow the reduced purchase on squads i have tried unless you want to add extra requirements and sim variables for it to work. Im not interested in something like that regardless if it was a nerf or buff.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Antandron » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 7:19 pm

Atlas wrote:
Antandron wrote:Ahh but Atlas, EVERYTHING can be assigned a cost as I had shown in the thought experiment involving proAI playing infinite games.
...
e.g.
If you agree with the principle of "better units cost more" or "better models cost more" then you have a hard time explaining why an Interceptor costs 150/20 while an Interceptor Justicar costs 90/15. They are identical models except the Justicar provides improved teleport. How does this make sense?
...


But an interceptor doesn't cost 150/20, it costs 75/10 the reinforce cost. You can't buy an "interceptor model" like you can a justicar. The squad purchase is just an initial cost and the reason reinforce costs are there is because the core of the game relies around incentives for squad preservation. Squad leaders are neat, but not essential aspects of the game as they're ultimately just a type of squad upgrade. The only ones that ARE essential in any sense, the detection sources and the GM ones, are given the die last status. The OM leaders made die last are just there to try and make them more usable ultimately. As I said earlier, a discussion on them can be made imo.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilcRS5eUpwk

When a squad of Interceptors is bought they cost 450/60 for 3 models so it's implied that 1 model is worth 150/20. You say it's "just an initial cost" but unit costs are the foundation of game balance. If a faction is to have good internal balance, with no OP or UP units in relation to one another, then Squad Leaders have to be compared to the base models since it's the most obvious comparison to make. If 3 Interceptors are worth 450/60, how much are 4 Interceptors worth? 600/80 ofc. But if the Interceptor Justicar costs only 90/15 then these 4 Interceptors cost 540/75 and that's not including the improved teleport.

An OM player can't buy a single Interceptor or Justicar model, but they do have access to a bunch of other units and upgrades. If everything is connected to everything else by a series of comparisons, all the options available to a player should be roughly balanced in terms of strength, so that the better/stronger/more influential units/wargear/squad leaders cost more than the weaker units/squad leaders/wargear. Then the player would have a difficult decision to make when deciding which option to select. Currently an OM player doesn't have a difficult decision after buying Purifiers since the answer is almost always "buy a Purifier Justicar" and rarely "save for something else" because the internal balance of the roster is imbalanced in favour of Purifier Justicars. The same would apply to any other roster which includes units which are OP in relation to other options, such as the 2.6 and 2.7 Eldar T2 when the Falcon was OP, and was bought in most games at the expense of other units which were rarely used.

Atlas wrote:I honestly don't know why both you and Antandron think I created this concept. My best claim is I came up with the term for it.


Only Boss thinks you created this concept, not me. I am 100% in favour of upkeep and pop standardisation.
Last edited by Antandron on Sat 06 Apr, 2019 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 7:39 pm

Torpid wrote:Annnd in spite of everything everyone still thinks the LA is the weakest nid hero in 3v3. And a lot of people would say he's up there even in 1v1. And even outside of nids, very few people consider the LA top tier anymore...

So re-hauling the key feature of the hero, or every single leader's features for the LA seems waaaaaaay out of proportion...


You underestimate my vast hatred of Nids. They're all OP and need to be nerfed to the ground :)
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Re: RE: Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Nurland » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 10:29 pm

Black Relic wrote:[quote="Nurland"]Yeah... So a flesh hook to a leader would do fuck all. That doesn't sound exactly like a great idea either.

LG already gets repurchased retinue members at a discount so I would imagine that making squad leaders rebuy cost reductions should be possible. The problem that causes is that is is a nerf to those squads in all other scenarios so it should be somewhat compensated



Actually i said to only to die last squad leaders so scouts serg and GMs and shoots nobs thats about it.. Damage would still be there just no KB on the leaders only. It would still do work just not an instant shut down a squad because now you have to target a kill able model to get the KB. Bleed is still there. The entire point of Flesh hook getting nerfs way back when was due to the insane damage and KB it did and was strictly used on die last models. Making wiping easy on getting a range squad to fall back with one ability.

And secondly. Repurchasing work on LG because he is a hero. You cannot really allow the reduced purchase on squads i have tried unless you want to add extra requirements and sim variables for it to work. Im not interested in something like that regardless if it was a nerf or buff.[/quote]For flesh hook the damage is secondary unless used in retreat wipes anyway. You use it to manipulate the position of a certain model. Just sounds like a nerf that is most likely not needed.

Also it would add another, unintuitive, hidden mechanic.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Black Relic » Sun 07 Apr, 2019 5:05 am

Thats fair. It was just an option. I dont think the flesh hook thing needs to change because LA imo is kinda lack luster for the two heroes (as strange as that sounds i just like RA more). Just throwing things at people.
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Re: Flesh Hook and Independent Character (Problems)

Postby Nurland » Sun 07 Apr, 2019 7:53 am

Fair enough.
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