Please please can we fix Cata bleed?

[Commissar Yarrick]

I kind of like Catachans the way they are now that I actually play IG

Glad they aren't as good as they were in retail though >:(

Agreed! I see no reason to nerf Catachan Devils at all. IG are as fragile as they can be already so I say keep them as they are now. Nerfing them now would be outrageous without some compensation.

[Dark Riku]

Rafa doesn't want to nerf catas.
He wants them to bleed more reliably and not be with 7/8 models with 100hp left.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

arguably a nerf, although their current states can cause them to die unexpectedly.

[Raffa]

@Riku
I'm glad at least one person understands what I'm trying to achieve here...

I'm not suggesting a nerf. I'm suggesting they bleed like every other squad in the game. You get so much out of the unit already.

ofc there's gonna be peeps who can't see what's right in front of them are going to say there's nothing wrong with a squad with 1hp getting away with 4 models, or getting away with under 100hp and 7 or 8/8 consistently. Or being stupidly tanky vs sniper fire.

It's not even funny that there's actually players who think there's nothing wrong. It goes against the basic unit mechanic of dow2. You take too much damage; you lose models; hurts your economy; don't do it again.

Cretella aside, think it's just a lack of skill and understanding on their part.

[Lag]

Catas are the only damage dealing IG squad in T1 and either rape or get raped hard. Even if they don't, their short range makes it hard for for them to transfer to other tiers as they become easier and easier to focus down by high DPS units of the higher tiers.

[Dark Riku]

Lag you are exaggerating way too much here.

[Vinyl41]

cata bleed was fixed on retail with the removal of the 1hp knife models the only problem that occures afterwards was thx to BC screwing the damage values on the models we ended with an op unit in both ranged and melee
retail catas from the start have 120 ranged and 150 power melee where the ranged damage doesnt change with range like it does on scouts and fun fack retail catas can now loose their grenade guy and the demo man which forces you to rebuy him

Imperial Guard: (retail changes)

Catachan Total Squad Size reduced from 7 to 5
Catachan Entity health scaled to 210 per entity
Catachan Shotgun damage scaled from 20 to 30 - 50% increase on ranged ( clear oversight by BC which caused them to become wtf bbq everything in t1)
Catachan Melee damage scaled from 20 to 30 - melee incresed by 7%

and this is how old retail and current mod catas behave:
At present, Catas are an unusual unit. They have one guy with a nade launcher that does 0 ranged DPS, who has 0 HP, who dies last, but has a standard melee attack. They have two guys with swords and pistols that have standard Cat health (at the moment that's 140), have 1.1 ranged DPS with their pistols, and standard melee DPS with their machetes. And, finally, they have four guys with shotguns that do 20 ranged damage per shot (about 11.8 DPS), do standard melee damage, and have normal Cat health.

Their squad leaders will not be affected by the patch other than their melee attacks being boosted as I already mentioned, since they have separate health they already grant (150 HP for Demo Man, 225 for Sarge), and different weapons from the rest of the Cats (a beefed-up shotgun that does 35 damage per shot for the Demo Man, and the melta for the Sarge).
just noticed that the retail demo man had 60hp less that might be the reason why he died so often on retail so if we would be changing the catas numbers his hp should go up too

[PanKiller]

So u say tacs/asm escaping with full models on 300 hp is okay? What about the other guy who DOES have casualties?

[Kvek]

So u say tacs/asm escaping with full models on 300 hp is okay? What about the other guy who DOES have casualties?

You are wrong. It's very rare to escape with 300HP and don't lose a model. And really guardsmen are 13 req to reinforce and with sergeant they reinforce 2 for 1.

[Dark Riku]

"damage spread across all 3 models" Yeah so give asm 670HP and do the same with tacs..
....
nerf them.

Are you insane?

Why models just dont die sometimes when they have way below 1 model hp? Is it just hidden relic bs?

Because a model can have 0.022746252 hp or whatever, you just see "1" in-game.

I think what he's trying to say here is why that a tac squad doesn't lose a model once they received 351 damage.

What are you trying to say Pankiller in all your posts?
Please use full comprehensive sentences.
Also what's an "apo abuser" ?


Let's also go back to the topic here, the catachan (non-) bleed.

[Codex]

Pankiller is saying, basically, if we're on the subject of Cata bleed (or lack thereof), that clearly SM exhibit this trait as much as Catachans. How is it fair that SM bleed when other races don't? Especially those players who have perfected the technique of "apo abuse", they don't have to lose any models at all? How is that fair? Same with Warlock using channeling runes on Banshees, clearly OP as it's impossible to bleed the Shees, whose weakness is supposed to be fragility!

In fact, both Apo and channeling runes have very natural counters, as the Apo can be focus fired first, meaning he has to waste his heal on himself rather than on his troops, and of course you are free to focus fire a channeling warlock, but it would be far more efficient to use knockback to counter the channeling runes, then focus fire the banshees. For example, an ASM jump, shotgun blast, grenade, anything. The Warlock has to stand still to use his channeling runes after all.

Without these tools, you should be able to bleed even SM in a fair fight, unless your opponent is being too passive, avoiding fights or retreating too cheaply. If they do that, take the map and go bash gens.

[Torpid]

I can't believe what I'm reading here, clearly none of you guys who are suggesting both a nerf to the bleed of catachans, and a nerf to their damage even play IG. Allow me to elaborate as someone who mains IG, but also plays SM/nids in 1v1 and realise how bad IG are as a result purely of catachans:

Catachans exist in order to compensate for the fact that IG get no other hard suppression counters. Spotters in t1 simply aren't a hard suppression counter alone as they merely cause the set up team to fall back slightly. Catachans then have the purpose of being soft anti set-up teams, soft anti building and a anti-jump unit squad and in t1 it fills all of these roles perfectly, yet it must be noted that catachans do not counter ranged units very effectively so long as such ranged units do not blob up. This is because catachans, like flamer guardsmen have shorter ranges than most ranged units and so they must leave the protection of cover to attack - they get no melee charge, they can't fire on the move, they are always the further out in the IG army bar sentinels/leaders and they are priority targets. The result of this is that they get focus fired by everything, and catachans therefore are forced off before they can do any significant damage with their shotguns default attacks.

The problem regarding catachans exasperates itself in t2, suddenly dedicated melee squads are able to beat catachans in melee due to them triggering special attacks and jump squads like asm slaughter them with merciless strike and just far higher hp, this problem was of course not as much of a problem in retail due to the ridiculous dps of catachans, but also due to them having a smaller squad size. Additionally catachans now have 9 models in t2, this combined with them constantly being out of cover due to their poor range leads to them being extremely susceptible to aoe attacks. Such attacks will bleed the catachans in a similar way to GM, except it will be bleeding power too. This is already significant enough on the IG economy which is extremely reliant on a good amount of pressure in t1 to pull you through the horror that is early t2. The only artillery for IG costs 100 power, the only line breaker unit costs 120 power and keeps demanding an extra 30 as that damn bone 'ead dies repeatedly, in order to maintain the usefulness of GM squads (which are almost a compulsory purchase in t1) you have to get comissars. Effectively in t2 both GM and catachans can become units that cost more in upkeep than their value is...(this is exaggeration).

The point remains that under no circumstances at all should catachans receive additional damage nerfs, such would be ridiculous. If that would be the case then it would impossible to fend off jump squads without catachans constantly being around the GM and then sentinels always hugging the catachans which incidentally is a blob that's very susceptible to suppression/aoe, or you would have to get ogryns to counter jump troops so yeah. In fact because catachans are so susceptible to aoe in t2 I would actually propose that the sergeant buffs the hp of the normal models slightly (I don't know by how much atm), but to compensate for this their ranged damage should be reduced as the purpose of catachans is not ranged damage output, it is disruption, utility and anti-melee.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

catachan are melee counters and utility units; they shouldn't ever be leading a charge. they don't need to either.

[dance commander]

I can't believe what I'm reading here, clearly none of you guys who are suggesting both a nerf to the bleed of catachans, and a nerf to their damage even play IG. Allow me to elaborate as someone who mains IG, but also plays SM/nids in 1v1 and realise how bad IG are as a result purely of catachans

I'm not sure who mentioned a damage nerf but the thread is not about nerfing them, but fixing their bleed.

[Rataxas]

Well Hellu players and ragers.

So you ppl say Catachans are not bleeding ? Lucky does not many of you guys play IG right ?

1) I would rather make my Devils bleed some to keep more health on them when the fight is on. What is does mean ? What the hell is does mean ? Thats mean Devils suffer much ( like all IG Raffa ) on any AOE dmg , so snips are not rly good choice against IG unless you face 5 sentinels on calderis.

2) Also , you guys are wrong about their bleeding , they do bleed much , but you just pick some wrong games where you cant finish those catachans of 200 HP and you get mad like WHYYYYYYY ? For real usally every fight i loss 1-2 models on devils , also is still damn risky to keep 6 models on field with 100-200 HP cause if they share HP ( yes they do ? ) one single nade on one single model can wipe all squad ?

What i would change in devils is :

- melee dps - way to big it can wipe almost hero on 200 HP ofc if he run in to them on X.

- just a bit a range dps , but something like 10% maybe 5% , they actually got knock nade , shotgun blast , smoke nade , so with their dps in "cap fight" they own usally most squads.

- incrase HP per model 30-40 HP around so they would not die from a single nade.

[Raffa]

- incrase HP per model 30-40 HP around so they would not die from a single nade.

Let me get this straight. You're suggesting around an extra 300+hp for the squad?

The way the game works is if you fight you risk losing models which punishes your eco which sets you back. Fighting also gives you the chance to set your opponent back by bleeding his models. Devil bleed takes away a lot of the risk of losing models thus IG eco is very strong and much harder to damage as their expensive power-costing T1 unit doesn't often need to be reinforced.

The damage sharing also means that they are so vulnerable to aoe attacks like nades and grenade launchers. It's also the reason IG's linebreaker and artillery units cost sooo much power.

Cata bleed needs to be fixed, and consequently Ogryn and Manticore power costs can be brought down to a more reasonable level (since currently they're basically what you spent that excess power on that you haven't lost in T1)

[Torpid]

Well Hellu players and ragers.

So you ppl say Catachans are not bleeding ? Lucky does not many of you guys play IG right ?

1) I would rather make my Devils bleed some to keep more health on them when the fight is on. What is does mean ? What the hell is does mean ? Thats mean Devils suffer much ( like all IG Raffa ) on any AOE dmg , so snips are not rly good choice against IG unless you face 5 sentinels on calderis.

2) Also , you guys are wrong about their bleeding , they do bleed much , but you just pick some wrong games where you cant finish those catachans of 200 HP and you get mad like WHYYYYYYY ? For real usally every fight i loss 1-2 models on devils , also is still damn risky to keep 6 models on field with 100-200 HP cause if they share HP ( yes they do ? ) one single nade on one single model can wipe all squad ?

What i would change in devils is :

- melee dps - way to big it can wipe almost hero on 200 HP ofc if he run in to them on X.

- just a bit a range dps , but something like 10% maybe 5% , they actually got knock nade , shotgun blast , smoke nade , so with their dps in "cap fight" they own usally most squads.

- incrase HP per model 30-40 HP around so they would not die from a single nade.

No, they must keep their melee damage. If there melee damage is reduced then how are they IG meant to deal with jump units like asm? At the moment catachans alone in t1 with demoman lose to asm if asm land the jump on them because asm get so many special attacks on them. Not to mention if the rest of the sm army is focus firing. Also it is wise to go heavy t1 against IG -> suppression + jump squad. Catachans because of how big their squad is do very poorly in melee while suppressed because not all their models can get in melee range and because special attacks knock some of the models out of the fight for even longer. They need that melee damage, it's their ranged damage that isn't needed because it overlaps with guardsmen, but of course that's there since they can't shoot on the move and are short range therefore a reduction in that should buff the catachan hp in t2 (they are already too good in t1 for a hp buff) where they start to become much less useful due to AoE.

[Lag]

Catas are fine. You have a unit which does very little damage and bleeds a lot (GM - the bleeding cost is not as important as the necessity to fall back and lose map control), you have a unit which does very little damage and doesn't bleed at all but lacks management (Sent), and then you have Catas who should actually do some damage and stay on the field a bit longer, but transfer to T2 somewhat badly as DPS of ranged units rises drastically, while their health doesn't, and neither does their range.
If you ask me - GM need to bleed less.

[Ace of Swords]

Jesus christ what i have to read...

Cata's problem is with their LEADERS they have 4 and yes FOUR models that will die last, 3 immortal leaders with 1hp + the last member of the squad, that's half of the squad that will NEVER bleed, so their healt is actually 243 per model when fully upgraded that's almost space marine stuff.

also is still damn risky to keep 6 models on field with 100-200 HP cause if they share HP ( yes they do ? ) one single nade on one single model can wipe all squad ?

obviosuly, beside the fact that if you have an almost full model squad in 1-2/10 of their hp you should be punished for that, beside, this is a problem for everyone else, and still ONLY the 3 leaders have shared else so you gotta hit one of these models, plus they will bug more often than not, snipers will do 0 damage on catas or hell even grenades, i still remember well when i thrown a grenade which surely hit the catas and it did 0 damage while they were retreating.

- incrase HP per model 30-40 HP around so they would not die from a single nade.

This suggestion just makes no sense.

[Lulgrim]

I think I could limit the squad leader models to Demo Man and Sarge and have the grenade launcher transfer if the model carrying it dies. This would probably make the squad less wonky.

I am not sure if the knife & pistol models serve a function (besides a visual suggestion that the unit has some level of melee performance).

[Torpid]

I really really don't think making catachans bleed even more is a good idea. They bleed enough as it is, and if they start to bleed like a GM squad then how the hell are IG ever meant to get into late tier2? There's a reason why they have so many die last models, if you want more consistency in kills then either buff their hp to compensate, or make their reinforcement cost cheaper.

[Asmon]

With that many immortal squad members they indeed don't take any damage from snipers and retreat 6/8 with 10% health. This is definitively an issue.

They were implemented as this because the devs were too lazy to make the weapons carry from one member to another. Also they were in the middle of let's make every squad leader last to die.

[Raffa]

Cata's problem is with their LEADERS they have 4 and yes FOUR models that will die last, 3 immortal leaders with 1hp + the last member of the squad, that's half of the squad that will NEVER bleed, so their healt is actually 243 per model when fully upgraded that's almost space marine stuff...

...obviosuly, beside the fact that if you have an almost full model squad in 1-2/10 of their hp you should be punished for that, beside, this is a problem for everyone else, and still ONLY the 3 leaders have shared else so you gotta hit one of these models, plus they will bug more often than not, snipers will do 0 damage on catas or hell even grenades, i still remember well when i thrown a grenade which surely hit the catas and it did 0 damage while they were retreating.

With that many immortal squad members they indeed don't take any damage from snipers and retreat 6/8 with 10% health. This is definitively an issue.

They were implemented as this because the devs were too lazy to make the weapons carry from one member to another. Also they were in the middle of let's make every squad leader last to die.

Always the same people who have the intelligent suggestions

Amazing how few people actually understand the mechanics of the game before commenting on complex issues.

I think I could limit the squad leader models to Demo Man and Sarge and have the grenade launcher transfer if the model carrying it dies. This would probably make the squad less wonky

Please just do this. Would fix the issue instantly.

[Ace of Swords]

With that many immortal squad members they indeed don't take any damage from snipers and retreat 6/8 with 10% health. This is definitively an issue.

This is what IG players fail to see, they think it's fine when everyone else in this game suffers huge losses when overextending, but not for themselves, you overextend catas? np they lose models only under 200hp and only sometimes, you overextend GMs? don't worry 6 GMs are still worth less than a single tactical marine.

They were implemented as this because the devs were too lazy to make the weapons carry from one member to another. Also they were in the middle of let's make every squad leader last to die.

100% true.

[Raffa]

This is what IG players fail to see, they think it's fine when everyone else in this game suffers huge losses when overextending, but not for themselves

This is the whole issue in a nutshell. Notice how the only defenders of catas as they are all:

a) main IG
b) cannot see beyond helping their own race as much as they can

[dance commander]

This is the whole issue in a nutshell. Notice how the only defenders of catas as they are all:

a) main IG
b) cannot see beyond helping their own race as much as they can

I'd say this is true for every player though, but yeah, cata bleed needs to be fixed, i've been saying it for a long time.

[Torpid]

Such would be a massive blow to a race that is far from over performing at the moment. I mean really, do you realise how much additional bleed this would cause?

[Caeltos]

It has severe economical impact with catachan bleed being increased. And IG mid-game requisition can be somewhat unstable. Espicially if it's heavily joint on making several purchases in the mid-game, since they are almost shoehorned in to making some investments in their mid-game to furthermore bolster their effiency. An IG-oriented army consisting of t1 only is quite a rare sight to behold.

It needs to have more tweaks if this is anything to go on, hench why I'm actually not that actually keen on making any adjustments to it, since it has a broad impact on their whole-economy from both early-game to late-game. It's one thing that requires fine-tunement, and onfortunately, there's little to go on what else to make some adjustments without having more impact on non-catachan builds, without possibly just enhancing their performance. (This depends of course, if the standard-non Catachan builds are actually in need of some boosting)

[Lag]

^What he said.

[KanKrusha]

Hi

This is purely a technical post suggestion for Lulgrim rather than a comment on what "should" be done

The heavy weapons guy is only there for visuals. The barrage ability is dependent on him (requirement). If you were to try to adjust this I would suggest making the ability no longer require him. Then you can delete the heavy weapons guy, make him not a leader or just make him not shared damage; whichever one takes your fancy.