3.0 - Things to be adressed

[Caeltos]

With 3.0 I want to try to look for a few things, and I can try to spoil some content that will TRY to make into the release of this patch;

Reworks
Without Numbers
With the Infestation Pillars serving as a structure for Ripper/Mines Without Numbers now have rather limited to no-use. My Goal is to make this more appropiate to the Tyranid theme, so the name itself will not get any changes. So the new approach is to go back abit to the roots, to provide Hormagaunt/Termagant with a few additions
- Drop in not restricted to require Line of Sight
- Grants Termagant/Hormagaunt squad with upgrades

So technically, this would be a fall-back option for fielding squads if you're already low on your army, or if you want to keep up the pressure. I'm doing some brainstorming on this, but a rework is abound nontheless

Grey Knight Rhino armed with a mounted-gunner for T1 Pressure
This would be abit of a flair of a similiaritiy of the Sentinel would be in the early-game. As it stands now, Rhino in 2s/3s in the early-game don't do much use, and are more of a niché purchase in the 1v1 scene if anything, and has a risky pay-off. This is to make it more of a tactical purchase, that would allow pressure play and manuverability. Of course, there is probably some cost evaluation to be done, but in the end, this would probably spice-up GK t1/t2 and maybe flex out some of the AV-incoporated builds you could throw in, without feeling the possible need to purchase the VA to deal with vehicles.

Depending on the implementation, this would do the following;
- Arm GK Rhino T1 with a pressure-potential vehicle that has similiar traits of that of a Sentinel. However, due to restricted repair ratio of Storms and initial power-cost, the restriction is abound to make sure that a "spam" is to be prevented, and that a fast-tech is even a possible strategy as long as you can counter-pressure with T2 investment afterwards
- Rhino becomes more flexible and capable of a scaling "mini-tank" with it's T2 purchases. However, abit of this will depend on the overall damage-values we'll give the mounted-gunner in T1.

Warboss Angry Bitz + Spiky Bitz
This has to do with the Angry Bitz + Spiky Bitz combo, but the overall thing can be resolved rather easily. Don't worry, its' abit on my radar and it'll get checked as a priority.

Smoke Bombs // Spotters
Smoke Bombs are probably doing abit TOO good job shutting down ranged blobs. There'll be probably some small nerf towards their Smoke Shell. Their Fire-Shell is probabably dealing too much damage as well (Probably similiar to that of a Hellfury) so there's going to be some evaluation over there.

Spotters will probably get some changes in-compensate towards their reduced performance, if it's deemded neccasary. As they are a very ability dependant unit, which is a good flavor, they should have some "minor" impact tho with their pewpew guns, but don't expect superfancy improvements overall. It'll be more likely nerfs. Sorry

Space Marine Force Commander Terminator Claws
They're abit underwhelming still, probably due to the fact that they share similiar damage values of that of a "lone" terminator with claws. However, it should be abit above that, since it does put him in the action, and Terminator Claws are the most scariest when there's 3 of them with their initial splash & damage values. The overall buf I'm looking foward is to make it somewhere of that of a strength of between 1-2 Terminators, rather then 1. This is subject to change, I'll need some overall raw statistics on the melee damage & melee special

Nobs
I feel that Nobs are being actually, contrary to some - doing abit less then what they're being paid to do. Frenzy took a large blow, and that really mitigated their performance to get in and wreck havoc. They're a pricey squad, and they should feel like an investment can pay-off if they get in. However, this doesn't feel like the case. I'm looking mostly at the Frenzy for an approach to improve them.


Additional Content to be released
- More color palettes (This was to be released a while ago, but priorities and stuff!)
- New "DLC" armies. And cosmetics
- More portraits! \o/


Feel like I missed something? Write about it and I'll explain why it's not on the list. Or, why I just haven't mentioned on this post.

It's abit of WIP by the way, but nontheless - general stuff

[Bahamut]

Venom Cannon Carnifex
Altho it was already said that these guys will not have fire on the move, quite some people agreed they're under performing abit for their price. I suggested increasing their range to about 46-48 to compensate for not being able to fire on the move, but staff might know better what to do with this guys. At the end of the day you're paying 750/200 for a t3 unit with 50 AP dps 44 range 1300 vehicle armor with 90 melee heavy dps when chaos tzeentch dread is t2, 500/180 has fire on the move, pretty much same AP dps (50vs48) and only 300 less hp and 17 less melee heavy dps

Hormagaunts
Still a bit too good in the late game. 3.1k these guy have in t3 at lvl 4 under melee syanpse. I'd say the hp boost on t2 and t3 is unnecessary overall, should definitely NOT stack with melee synapse at least

SM Terminators
Rather them underperforming, i see alot of things overperforming against them. Specially in late t3. Karskins, dire avengers, flash gits, chaos lighting claw termies are way more common than SM terminators and way too effective at dealing with them

Weirdboy
I think this guy overperforms big time. Vomit is still 8 seconds (at least that's what i can read in the module files). Such a killy and stompy race with such a long disable smells OP to me.

UYC
35% melee damage and 60 melee skill for 25 seconds for just 75 red. A bit too good i would say, just increasing its red cost should do, since the ability is and should be strong.. just not that strong

[Toilailee]

Mek turret.

I have tried using them extensively and I have to say that they are completely useless atm. Even with the buff to their dps they still have very little impact. They take forever to build and they cost 20 fucking power.

The only comparable turret, the multilas turret, cost 5 power and has far greater impact on the field. Las turret also has better synergy with ig repair and takes less time to build so it can be used on a whim just in time for a deciding t1 engagement, while the mek turret can't.

Basically the mek turret wants to be a crossover of a cheap ig firesupport turret and an expensive hero turret. But it has all the drawbacks of a hero turret (cost, build time) without the key advantage (supression) and it lacks the real advantages of a cheap turret (dps at max range, build time, cost, synergy with it's race) and has only 1 of it's advantages (salvage).

And even the salvage has very little meaning in context, if you invest 20 power into this turret you plan on defending something with it. And since it takes too long to build to use before an engagement and because it's so expensive your army will be inferior to that of the opponents. So if your opponent makes a t1 push on the turret in most cases you cannot afford to lose that engagement because then you'll lose your gens aswell, which means even if you manage to salvage the turret it'll do you little good.


I have even tried using 2 or 3 of them at once and they are very easily countered by t1 infantry army with 1 decent turret counter (flamer/melee) since the more turrets you have the less units you will have to defend those turrets.
They are supposed to be fire support turrets like las turrets, which means you are supposed to have your army supporting them and not leave them on their own to stop everything in their tracks like supression turrets. Can you see the controversy here?

[Raffa]

This would be abit of a flair of a similiaritiy of the Sentinel would be in the early-game. As it stands now, Rhino in 2s/3s in the early-game don't do much use, and are more of a niché purchase in the 1v1 scene if anything, and has a risky pay-off. This is to make it more of a tactical purchase, that would allow pressure play and manuverability...
Depending on the implementation, this would do the following;
- Arm GK Rhino T1 with a pressure-potential vehicle that has similiar traits of that of a Sentinel. However, due to restricted repair ratio of Storms and initial power-cost, the restriction is abound to make sure that a "spam" is to be prevented, and that a fast-tech is even a possible strategy as long as you can counter-pressure with T2 investment afterwards
- Rhino becomes more flexible and capable of a scaling "mini-tank" with it's T2 purchases. However, abit of this will depend on the overall damage-values we'll give the mounted-gunner in T1.

I like this. There is very little reason to get a Rhino as GK except for AV purposes in T2. I just wonder if this could make GK have many of the advantages of the Sent+GM synergy, whilst also allowing the extra manoeuvrability, and then all transitioning into a "proper" vehicle come T2. It could be strong but the Rhino is in need of another look-at and this might do the trick - altho a lot of playtesting may be needed (moar betas!)[/quote]

Nobs
I feel that Nobs are being actually, contrary to some - doing abit less then what they're being paid to do. Frenzy took a large blow, and that really mitigated their performance to get in and wreck havoc. They're a pricey squad, and they should feel like an investment can pay-off if they get in. However, this doesn't feel like the case. I'm looking mostly at the Frenzy for an approach to improve them.

Frenzy did take a hit yes, but the smart Ork players (Mathis especially) are finding ways to work around it - namely webo synergy. Warpath in particular turns Ork blobs into rolling death balls and it can be very diffcult to target nobs with the dps and disruption Orks can put out. In short my opinion is that Nobs are strong with a webo but if you have that combo it should be damn strong. That being said, 50(!) power for the hammers is too high - 100/40 would be my pick.

With the Infestation Pillars serving as a structure for Ripper/Mines Without Numbers now have rather limited to no-use. My Goal is to make this more appropiate to the Tyranid theme, so the name itself will not get any changes. So the new approach is to go back abit to the roots, to provide Hormagaunt/Termagant with a few additions
- Drop in not restricted to require Line of Sight
- Grants Termagant/Hormagaunt squad with upgrades

Really skeptical about not restricting drop in to LoS. Secret power bashes? Extreme flanking? Even trying to attack base turrets or get LoS for a unit drop-in to kill things in retreat or at base? Besides, Infestation Pillars are just about balanced (possibly on the strong side) as is.

Additional Content to be released
- More color palettes (This was to be released a while ago, but priorities and stuff!)
- New "DLC" armies. And cosmetics
- More portraits! \o/

:p

Mek Turret costs 20 power o.O - thought it was like 10 or something.

[Torpid]

Heavy Bolter rhino's are the shit due to how strong GKs t1 is and the VA. If you get a gen bash off in t1 (which you often can since GK t1 is amazing) and follow up with a HB rhino + VA it often ends the game right there.

[Commissar Vocaloid]

I'm saddened to hear the nerf about the spotters as an IG player, especially with the incendiary shell - my only hope is that you can still have it do enough damage to punish players who overlook/neglect a setup team (i.e forget the team entirely and they still wipe to one incendiary shell, albeit over a longer period now of course). Setup teams are annoying to deal with otherwise from a purely infantry role for IG (assuming you don't roll in chima/manti to use as an answer - which are huge and risky investments).

[PhatE]

Wagh banners could use a build time decrease or, and this is something that Fear and I were talking about, giving the Mek boy a build time decrease for when he builds banners.

It may provoke some people into playing him more plus it gives you a better reason to actually make them.

Right now it's very slow. I'd say not particularly worth it given many circumstances but they do come in handy from time to time given what they can offer. 2 vs 2's they can be really good if you're both orks or a combination of capillary towers and wagh banners. But for 1 vs 1 it's a different story.

I don't want the ability to spam them but I'd like to see more of them. That being nearly non existent to some of the time. I wouldn't want to go for something like capillary towers I do really like that you have to build them. It can really fit the aggressive play style as well as the aggressive nature of orks

[Caeltos]

I'm saddened to hear the nerf about the spotters as an IG player, especially with the incendiary shell - my only hope is that you can still have it do enough damage to punish players who overlook/neglect a setup team (i.e forget the team entirely and they still wipe to one incendiary shell, albeit over a longer period now of course). Setup teams are annoying to deal with otherwise from a purely infantry role for IG (assuming you don't roll in chima/manti to use as an answer - which are huge and risky investments).

Of course, if you're not paying attention to the fire, you're suppose to get burn'd.
Or just you know, the thumbrule - Don't stand in the fire.

[Sub_Zero]

All points in the first post seem fine for me but buffing nobz is not looking good. Anti-everything unit that can retreat and go invulnerable and being fully upgraded can go toe-to-toe with almost every unit in the game and they can level up. Of course that won't change your mind but still...

Totaly agree with Bahamut.

There are tons of gameplay aspects that I want to talk about but don't have enough time to make threads for it. For example khorne marines role and performance, ogryns cost (too high), raveners performance etc

[Lag]

Basically this:
Fix Tyranid bleed or at least adjust their income (like Orks had)
Fix Hook
Decrease Storm GL projectile speed
Increase CD on Brother Captain starting ability maybe?
REduce Vomit stun time

BTW I'm out of the hiatus zone for now so I have more time on my hands. If you guys can insert new sounds I'd be happy to help.

[Caeltos]

@Lag
Please refrain from posting in the thread if you're not going to bring anything to the table. I removed the Catachan post, as I assumed the (trololol) was intentional to mark it as an unserious note.

[Lag]

Meaning "trolling". Then I made another post saying what I think should be addressed. Check the (now) last post of previous page.

[Caeltos]

Meaning "trolling". Then I made another post saying what I think should be addressed. Check the (now) last post of previous page.

Yeah, I just saw it after I posted.

[xerrol nanoha]

Is there any consideration for GK Rhino to reinforce with an upgrade in tier 2 or 3?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Maybe a cost decrease in some of the Nobz' upgrades would be enough. With some support they can own everything in melee combat.

I want to throw to the table some stuff which AFAIK don't have his own thread.

- KCSM and their role/performance in the current meta.
- Plague Marines and their (almost usually) useless heal-other-on-death effect.
- Range build/third armour for Plague Champion?
- Third weapon wargear for Chaos Sorcerer?
- SM Ranged Terminators in the current meta.
- SM Librarian/Terminator/Dread Inspire suppression resistance effect.
- IG Ogryns in the current meta.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Im just hoping the la fixes come.hes clearly broken

[Sub_Zero]

Doom/Mark Target are pretty fucking broken abilities. For God sake reduce their effectivness.

[Lag]

Oh yeah, I forgot. The DoM still two-click rapes entire IG armies.

[Torpid]

Oh yeah, I forgot. The DoM still two-click rapes entire IG armies.

Not just IG, but also eldar. Caeltos must be aware of this by now and hence I've just gave up on it. I mean fine, let nids get a SHI counter in t3, but don't make it so stupidly hard to kill AND be able to deal with entire armies of H/LI too.

[Caeltos]

Don't worry, there's something that will be changed on those stuff.

[Sub_Zero]

What about abilities that allow your army to rape a unit of choice?

[Caeltos]

What about abilities that allow your army to rape a unit of choice?

Care to elaborate?

[Vapor]

What about abilities that allow your army to rape a unit of choice?

Care to elaborate?

He was using some colorful language to describe doom and mark target

[Sub_Zero]

Yeah And for the first time, by the way.

These abilities basically force you to retreat a unit that was "cursed" by it. And usually it spells doom for any melee/jump unit. You can somehow prevent your ranged squad from it but that is nearly impossible with your melee units. Yes, you can bring disruption/stuns/supression to prevent the murder of your cursed unit but in practice it is hard. Also these abilities work too well on vehicles. And vehicles can't retreat. When you buff your unit somehow it is ok. When you debuff damage output of other units it is ok. But when you make enemy unit less resistant to damage by 40% or 50% from all your units this is not ok at all. I suggest to decrease these effects to 20% and 25% so these effects will not be so crucial.

For any TM player the Signum Armor is pretty much an auto-buy since it gives you the ability in "I win" style. Melee build for the TM is just for fun. If you want to win then just buy the Signum Armor. It will give you so much easy squad kills. If we nerfthe ability then this situation will change.

Farseer can abuse "Doom" since T1. And that is really painful with defensive gaydar play. All T1.5 units of Eldar roster force you to be offensive. Supression teams and snipers. Any jump unit usually helps to deal with these units. But eldar has banshees who do insanely high damage for a T1 melee unit. Assault marines jump on shuriken platform, they get doomed by Farseer and then banshees eat them alive before they even hurt the shuriken platform. You can throw guide on your banshees for more lulz. Scouts snipers suck compared to rangers. They will get owned by them while they try to force off a shuriken platform. Infiltrated scouts can work out vs 2x shuriken platforms play but when your opponent have rangers then they won't be effective. Space Marines have a lot of ways to deal with supression teams but what about orks who have only one source? (stormboyz) Yes, two of their heroes are good supression counters but if you hero is the warboss then you won't do much vs 2x shuriken play. We assume that platforms cover each other. IF you don't jump on the second playtform then you lose. And while you try to find it your stormboyz will be weakened by rangers. When they will finally land on the second platform they'll get doomed and owned by banshees. Yes, you can make stormboyz harder, yes, you can supress with shoota boyz all ranged units but 2nd shuriken platform can freely de-setup while your stormboyz fly on it. Stormboyz have no effect on landing so that shuriken cannon can get away and setup again because banshees will stop stormboyz using warshout and they will kill them in melee if Doom was used on stormboyz. You can go for 2nd stormboyz but your opponent will just make yet another supression team.
And you can't really recognize doom as easily as you do it with mark target. Yet another point why it is overpowered.

[Torpid]

Well I certainly haven't had the same 1v1 experience as you because whenever I play farseer I never get banshees since I can counter-initiate better with mind war -> nades. SM arethe race I have most success doing this with because before ASM + shotgun scouts+ flamer tacs made my shees pretty useless and if they were the apo it was even worse.

As orks you just cap wherever the shurikens aren't and if they split up they are promptly forced off by stormboyz + AWD on the shees. Shootas beat guardians 1v1 and the warboss with his shoota can easily deal with eldar heroes. I really don't see what the big deal is at all with doom. It's certainly strong, but I don't feel it's OP and I think it's just one reason to play the farseer instead of the warlock/trollspider, alongside her gates, farsight, her natural sight radius and mind war.

[Sub_Zero]

In other words "Doom" buffs damage of all your units against one certain unit by 40%. It sounds kinda scary, doesn't it? I would dare to say that even 20% buff for all your units against one certain unit is really strong. What we have now is just madness.

[Forestradio]

What about abilities that allow your army to rape a unit of choice?

Care to elaborate?

assail.

Right now it isn't even channeled, so the inquisitor can cast it on any unit (probably an expensive jump unit that bleeds a lot) and completely nullify it in an engagement.

It's getting to the point where GK have no chance vs the inquisitor in T2.

[Torpid]

I agree, assail is horrible at the moment, as is the bane wolf, but regardless, you shouldn't be getting GKI vs IG.

[Forestradio]

I agree, assail is horrible at the moment, as is the bane wolf, but regardless, you shouldn't be getting GKI vs IG.

I guess i also shouldn't get purgation or strike squad or purifiers or anything.

Oh wait, that's half of the GK roster rendered useless by a single hero.

But whatever. If the IG player knows the matchup, he'll just go double sentinel and it will be gg wp around 5 minutes in.

[Kvek]

I agree, assail is horrible at the moment, as is the bane wolf, but regardless, you shouldn't be getting GKI vs IG.

I guess i also shouldn't get purgation or strike squad or purifiers or anything.

Oh wait, that's half of the GK roster rendered useless by a single hero.

But whatever. If the IG player knows the matchup, he'll just go double sentinel and it will be gg wp around 5 minutes in.

Agree about the Inq

If the GK player knows how to counter sents, no it won't be...