3.0 - Things to be adressed

[BigBadWoolf]

According to the Elite skill ladder Riku's best hero is the Warlock..

[Nuclear Arbitor]

last i heard (months ago) the lemon drop was crap and never used; maybe no hearts would break if it was replaced with kasrkin.

[Asmon]

According to the Elite skill ladder Riku's best hero is the Warlock..

Lulz

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

this game goes to show how much u can outplay an opponent but since ur apo he can hang in there till the end.

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=292177

[Dark Riku]

Agree Apo needs buffs.

[Tex]

Apo doesn't need buffs. Creative play turns him into an absolute animal.

The only thing apo needs is for the LA and the CL to get nerfs. After that happens, he doesn't have a single un-winnable match up.

In fact, I would say that there is a much needed wargear nerf to the apo... His purity vials are absolutely out of control. The cooldown is too short, the damage over time AND the burst are both very high, and worst of all, the effect lasts for at least 15 seconds which provides ridiculous area denial.

On the other hand, I have no idea why sanguine sword costs 25 power and I could definitely see purification rites getting a slight cost decrease.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

i dont find the apo needs buff per say. i tihnk ive figured out how we can solve the sm problem as a whole. vials do need to be toned down as they are over performing horrendously. how do we fix sm fellas? we need to look at the upkeep costs on the sarges. its way to high and stalls the eco in t2 if u purchase atleast 2 sarges. what is the upkeep cost on them exactly tacts and asm?

[Caeltos]

Most 5 pop leaders are at 12.8 upkeep. Eldar used to be the exception for a long time, and I do believe they still are in retail to some degree.

[ThongSong]

interceptor's removal of nemesis focus is raising my eyebrow. Even if it is a massive point sink, I can't help but feel that it was a useful upgrade to let them stand up against other melee squads.

Were they considered to overperform even after their teleport took a hit?

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

hmm would tweaking these upkeep factors a tad open up the eco in t2? cause i love 2 tacts into asm myself if i sarge everything with them alone im at like 79/100 and with 2 nat req points on calderis my req is at like +169 or something like that? which makes it so with even minimal bleed the progression to t3 is slow as crap, i linked a replay earlier that shows this. bled a cl to absolute crap still had trouble out teching him?

[Caeltos]

hmm would tweaking these upkeep factors a tad open up the eco in t2? cause i love 2 tacts into asm myself if i sarge everything with them alone im at like 79/100 and with 2 nat req points on calderis my req is at like +169 or something like that? which makes it so with even minimal bleed the progression to t3 is slow as crap, i linked a replay earlier that shows this. bled a cl to absolute crap still had trouble out teching him?

Mostly just the problem with transitional builds that consists heavily of 15 pop squads. They can't be everywhere, but they're needed for the big fights, and if you lose models, you're going to pay the price, esp. if you lose to a more synergized- lower-sized pop army.

It's no wonder that multiple scouts are very favorable in 1v1s since it helps out your overall economical stability, and can also synergize very well with one another better rather than chugging down the 450 req on asm/tacs etc.

If you say, reduce the Tactical Sergant upkeep from 12.8 to 10.8 , and let's just say you get it around 7-8 minutes into the game (Just for the sake of setting up a how much requisition you gain from it, compared to before situation);

- 8 minute Tactical Sergeant in a 30 minute game - cost 281,6 requisition (22 minutes)
- 8 minute Tactical Sergeant in a 30 minute game - cost 237,6 requisition (22 minutes)

As you can see, it's a measly 50 requisition over the course of 22 minutes. However, if you add multiple sergeants and start comparing, you're getting a better pay-off of course.

Eldar used to have upkeep that varied from between 3 to 7.8 , however of course - this is due to they bled abit more frequently compared to Space Marine counterparts. But a well played Eldar would also be terrorized by the forums for being such a cheesy faction with their economical advantage, and it's probably still true to day, but problably NOT as bad tho.

I believe it worked better in general with the lower upkeep on the sergeants, they cost alot more upfront compared to a regular model so ... meh, it's really debatable to the end of times. But overall you'd prefer to give every faction a very respectable overall economy that makes them able to fund stuff, rather than feel completely depleted - it's what makes games exciting to begin with and not a complete borefest and super one-sided.

[Torpid]

Yeah, such req heavy builds really do have to be used very aggressively to force either a lot of bleed on your foe, or to gain map control while you push them about, or to gen bash. If you do none of these but don't bleed yourself then you've still failed. I guess that's why builds such as 2x tacs+asm are that bit rarer, they're just a bit more cheesy (risky).

[Ace of Swords]

Is anything beign done the the tyrant guard? It's a 55 power unit that requires both SHI and Vehicle counters to be taken down, it also has an obscene hp regen on his shield that stacks with the zoan aura, so atleast this has to go, aside from the fact that the basic regen is too high considering it can also heal up at the base, so the shield wall itself is not an exclusive way for it to heal up, but rather an extra that could be compared to repairing, except that instead of disabling multiple squads it only disables the TG itself.

tl:dr the stacking needs fixing, and the TG itself needs a nerf on his shieldwall ability.

Another thing, about the apo nades, it DOES need a CD increase, but it doesn't need any other nerf if I recall correctly like the PC nade it has a shorter throw range than standard grenades, it also makes me mad the fact that people that complain about it's damage don't even make an effort to avoid it and THEN THEY COMPLAIN IT TOOK 50% OF THE SQUAD HP when A NORMAL NADE WOULD HAVE WIPED THE SQUAD OUT, and im speaking from what I've observed in game that's all.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

thx alot for the detailed response caeltos

[Forestradio]

Is anything beign done the the tyrant guard? It's a 55 power unit that requires both SHI and Vehicle counters to be taken down, it also has an obscene hp regen on his shield that stacks with the zoan aura, so atleast this has to go, aside from the fact that the basic regen is too high considering it can also heal up at the base, so the shield wall itself is not an exclusive way for it to heal up, but rather an extra that could be compared to repairing, except that instead of disabling multiple squads it only disables the TG itself.

tl:dr the stacking needs fixing, and the TG itself needs a nerf on his shieldwall ability.

Another thing, about the apo nades, it DOES need a CD increase, but it doesn't need any other nerf if I recall correctly like the PC nade it has a shorter throw range than standard grenades, it also makes me mad the fact that people that complain about it's damage don't even make an effort to avoid it and THEN THEY COMPLAIN IT TOOK 50% OF THE SQUAD HP when A NORMAL NADE WOULD HAVE WIPED THE SQUAD OUT, and im speaking from what I've observed in game that's all.

zoan hp regen stacks with shieldwall??????

That cannot be intended..............

I would increase the cooldown on the apo purification vials and slightly increase the energy cost from the current 25 to 30 or 35.

[Bahamut]

depends how it stacks... if it stacks baseregen*regen syanspe + shieldwall regen then it's totally fine. If regen synapse is using shieldwall as base regen value then yeah... wtf

[Faultron]

-make AI works again in bot match so we can somewhat warm up/practice vs cpu, and this will help for newcommers as well a lot or who comes from retail.

-and replace the warlock leaders for eldar
my thoughts on this are in this topic
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=452



more publicity in:
- steam (free mod download from ,store')
- moddb

[Speedy^]

Can you also check one thing. Inquisitor Auspex Scan with Servo Skull hotkey is F and Rosarius shield in the upgrade list is also F. When ever you hotkey use Servo Skulls auspex scan it uses the ability, but also changes servo skull to Rosarius Shield.

While we are at it, would it be possible to add Detector status for Servo Skull to make it possible to have inquisitor be a detector as well? Or simply have the auspex scan detect hidden targets?

[Nuclear Arbitor]

gird keys/no grid keys?

suggest a replacement key.

no because it would make it far to easy for her to counter infiltrated units.

[Kvek]

Can you also check one thing. Inquisitor Auspex Scan with Servo Skull hotkey is F and Rosarius shield in the upgrade list is also F. When ever you hotkey use Servo Skulls auspex scan it uses the ability, but also changes servo skull to Rosarius Shield.

While we are at it, would it be possible to add Detector status for Servo Skull to make it possible to have inquisitor be a detector as well? Or simply have the auspex scan detect hidden targets?

It already detects (the ability) and for such a low cost..

[Speedy^]

Can you also check one thing. Inquisitor Auspex Scan with Servo Skull hotkey is F and Rosarius shield in the upgrade list is also F. When ever you hotkey use Servo Skulls auspex scan it uses the ability, but also changes servo skull to Rosarius Shield.

While we are at it, would it be possible to add Detector status for Servo Skull to make it possible to have inquisitor be a detector as well? Or simply have the auspex scan detect hidden targets?

It already detects (the ability) and for such a low cost..

Does it now? Hm, I didn't have any stealth units to test it with, the description never mentioned that it detects hidden units. Either way it does give long range spotting but is overshadowed by the two shields and the energy armor. I personally like making my Inquisitor a Jeep. But the auspex scan hotkey is interrfering with Rosarius shield upgrade from the upgrade list and each time you press F it changes the wargear as well as doing the ability.

[Sub_Zero]

There are lots of hotkeys on abilities that match with hotkeys on upgrades/on other abilities. I wanted to make a list of them one day. I use standart hotkeys. Will you fix it if I will present you a list of all broken hotkeys?

[Cheah18]

GK Tier 3 vs SM (FC) with AssTerms:

I wanted to get this on here. Played a game very recently where I was GK against SM. There was an observer, Vred. Now I owned this game from start to finish (I do not mean to sound brash, and no disrespect to my opponent, I'm sure he will agree). I owned every point on the map (except his natural power, which had no gens) for a fair while, and constantly bashed his gens while killing his models with my melee units.

My error was to take my foot off the pedal and not cap and hold the VPs so aggressively, and let him get back in the game. However this shouldn't have any bearing on the actual balance issue.

He summoned one unit of ass terms and got them their claws and poof; the game was lost. He had enough units surrounding, and and assault cannon termie FC, to mop up units while I *tried* to focus down the termies. They ripped up my paladins and my crusader (by the time this hit the field he had more normal termies in addition and a few more units). My other units which were a SS, Int, Purifiers and 2 IST, all high levels, got bled loads and could pretty much do nothing. Sure the IST went round capping but they could only have such a size of an effect on the game.

The point is, one unit just rendered everything in my army useless. This was classic overpowered-ness. There was no bad or amazing play, no weird mishaps or bugs; it was just one unit which I physically could not counter. The observer voiced is agreement on this.

I'm not arrogant enough to be go shouting how I know what the game's about on these forums just to got shot down by someone who knows what they're talking about, but can someone tell me please what I could have done or if there is nothing to do for sure. Is something being done about GK tier 3, which has iirc been complained about before?

[Forestradio]

wut.

Grey Knight terminators are 999999999999 times better than assault terminators.

More health, absurdly powerful ranged weaponry, more ways to increase durability, and damage that is almost as good (and can be buffed to be even better).

Let's also not forget that GK terminators can temporarily get speed 5 with WATH.

It brings to mind the phrase "you can run but you'll only die tired."

[Cheah18]

So they should win that match up? or are they just better generally?

I completely agree with you on the points though, they are better as a unit. But my problem was the Assterms just owned my whole army to the point where I couldn't do shi'.

[ThongSong]

your army was exactly the sort of army lightning claw terminators are designed to kill.

If you're throwing paladins, a tank-killing unit, not a dedicated melee one, and purifiers, a t2 dedicated melee squad that is certainly not designed to go up against t3 heavy weights, and expecting a good outcome ... then... well...

If you had your own GK terminators, backed up with everything you had, those LC terms would have been annihilated

[Torpid]

Or if you had a melee claw dreadnought, or if you had the libby your pallies would have wiped the floor with the LC termies. Besides how are you equal in eco in t3 when GK has the far superior early t2 and t1? When he has LC terms you should have pallies+gk terms.

[Bahamut]

force staff on the BC and paladins will eat LC termies for breakfast

[Nuclear Arbitor]

There are lots of hotkeys on abilities that match with hotkeys on upgrades/on other abilities. I wanted to make a list of them one day. I use standart hotkeys. Will you fix it if I will present you a list of all broken hotkeys?

lulgrim has been fixing conflicting hotkeys when people bring them up and suggest a replacement. although webway gates apparently are not fixed yet... go post in the bugs thread, telling him with what hotkey set, what ability, and what you suggest for a replacement.

[Tex]

I don't understand how litclaw termies could have turned that game around. If you had the map, then all you needed to do was keep moving and he would have eventually lost. Furthermore, why wouldn't you spam your cheapest unit against them? You do realize that stormtroopers have a plasma upgrade right?

This is not a case of OP at all. This is likely a case of a series of bad decisions.