Squad Leader Positioning

[Forestradio]

Squad Leader Positioning

This thread is about the absolutely stupid positioning of certain squad leaders that makes them die first and throws players into economic havoc for losing just one model (a model that costs 25 power to replace),

While some of you are probably thinking that this isn't a balance issue, it is. Because some factions (grey knights, chaos, eldar, and to a lesser extent IG and SM) are going to be affected if this gets changed, while other factions (orks and nids) who don't have this problem are going to remain the same.


Melee units that have this issue

1. Purifiers. These guys are worthless without their justicar.

2. Howling Banshees. These ladies need their exarch in T2 in order to get into combat with powerful ranged weapons around.

3. Ogryns. Once again, pretty much worthless without their leader. Without their disruption ability, they lose badly to other dedicated melee.

4. MoK CSM. Their aspiring champion is once again pretty must an auto-buy if you plan on using these guys effectively. He also makes them get some soft AV.

So as we see, these units require a leader to be effective. Losing that leader costs around 90-100 req and 25-30 power which is quite a bit.

Current squad makeup for ogryns/MoK CSM/purfiers is the squad leader in front, then the other three models behind him.

Something like this:

_______________Leader
Normal Model____Normal Model____Normal Model

Consequently, it is the squad leader who ends up eating most of the melee attacks/ranged fire and dying in a pathetic manner. The squad now has to replace an expensive leader, and is greatly reduced in its role for the rest of the engagement.

What positioning I would like to see:

____________Normal Model
Normal Model____ Leader____Normal Model

Not only does this make more sense from a lore perspective (the leader should be in the middle to give better orders, etc) but it now means that the squad leader isn't going to be the one dying first.

Howling Banshees have more than four models, but their exarch does have an annoying tendency to run in front of her sisters when chasing stuff, so she gets gunned down rather easily as well. I'm not sure how to fix this.

Ranged Units that have this issue
1. Tactical Squad.

2. Ranged CSM (either vanilla or MoT)

3. Strike squad (either ranged or with Nemesis focus)

This isn't as big of a problem with ranged units (since they aren't massive bullet magnets) and they also don't rely as much upon their squad leaders. However, it's still annoying. And stupid.

Conclusion:

If Caeltos doesn't think it's a problem with ranged units (and it's not as big of a problem with them) I would still like to see melee units get this tweak to their positioning. It affects a lot of races and some pretty pivotal units that require a big investment (especially ogryns and purifiers).

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

Ur also forgetting wraithguard where the leader is sitting in front tanking.concerning this i wonder why we cant make the leader u purchase for every squad the last to die? Unless that would cause balance issues?

[Sub_Zero]

I don't mind if it will be fixed. But I really don't feel anymore that leaders of my squads die often. I used to feel it in retail.

But making all leaders immortal is a bad idea. And I will explain why. Immortal leaders share damage and hence make other member more resistant to bleed. I can imagine how horrible will be assault marines under apo's support for an opponent to deal with.

We all know how cats can preserve models even being very low at health. That is why they have 2-3 immortal leaders. Shoota boyz, scouts become less resistant to bleed with their leaders too.

[Asmon]

Immortal leader mechanics is a terrible thing that was implemented because relic failed to make live what we prefered: to repurchase leaders at a lower cost. Except perhaps for IG where it more or less works well enough.

[SirSid]

I agree imortal leader's are bad.

However moving the leaders into the middile / back of the units ranks would be a nice fix "idea"

The problem i see with it right off the bat is that u would have to do this to evrey unit at the same time as it would be a massive balance change . Remember some races and comanders specialize at kill leaders , like the lictor alpha obviously however a FC with a power fist also , or warboss claw .

Also would doing this just create more problems ? I mean look how much u all bitched about the leader for the hormaguants and termaguants , the main problem is that it never died dew to staying a huge distance in the back.

Also with banshies i HATE lossing my leader with that squade however if it never died that would change the eldar ecnomy ALOT instantly .


This is not a bad idea but i think it has large reaching effects that have to be thought about alot.

[Torpid]

I think it's a change that I'm surprised hasn't been done earlier actually. The units forest listed would be perfect for the change and I don't think it would make any of the units listed OP with the change.

[Kithrixx]

I never saw "leaders die last" as a particularly awful thing, actually. To be honest, I think "leaders die last" fits on melee squads, but not ranged squads. I believe that if it was strictly a feature of melee, then things would be different, but then again I may be entirely wrong.

Of course, the perfect solution would be a cheaper buyback if a leader unit is lost, but I'm not sure that's possible.

[Asmon]

Basically the mechanics is bad because the damage sharing is poorly implemented, which results in a lot of issues with abilities, sniper shots and the like not doing the intended damage (and sometimes no damage at all).

[Nuclear Arbitor]

the only squad that i consider die last leaders to work fine on is GM and that's because it's two of 13 or so models

[Lulgrim]

Of course, the perfect solution would be a cheaper buyback if a leader unit is lost, but I'm not sure that's possible.

Easily doable using a "bought a squad leader" upgrade and a couple of conditions... There's no reason Relic couldn't have done it any day, they chose not to.

the only squad that i consider die last leaders to work fine on is GM and that's because it's two of 13 or so models

That was the original concept, wasn't it, only IG got them originally.

[Asmon]

Indeed, and to extend it to other squads was a huge mistake.

[Forestradio]

I don't think an across the board "leaders die last" change would work for the reasons already stated.

My main issue is that purifiers/ogryns/MoK CSM/shees seem to have a "leader dies first" thing with their stupid squad positioning.

The squad leader should have an equal chance of dying, not a greater chance.


And this is way different from the nids squad leaders. Nids squad leaders were waaaaay more durable than the rest of the gaunts in the squad, so they rarely died. But melee unit leaders aren't that much more durable than the regular models:

Purifier Justicar: 550 hp compared to 500 on a normal mode

MoK CSM AC: 460 hp compared to around 400 on a normal model

Ogryn Bonhead: 600 hp compared to 425 on a normal model

[crazyman64335]

here's an idea to solve this, how about once you purchase a squad leader he can still die and all that fun stuff, but when you go to repurchase the squad leader his cost is reduced to half or something? It's annoying as hell (especially for GK) to get squad leaders, have to shell out the 90/25 every time for their squad leaders which are more important than any other race's imo.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I like the idea to make squad leaders a reinforceable unit, but I see two problems.
1. Not all squad leaders are the same/have the same performance.
2. Doing this will make snipe model tactics/abilities a smaller reward.

[Sub_Zero]

You call for a sergeant to lead your troops. He dies in battle. You call for another one paying the full cost. This economical mechanism should not be changed. Why? Because player has to think about this investment, cheaper costs will remove this aspect. I think you assume at least a 50% discount on a leader once he purchased.

[Ace of Swords]

Except that you have no power on how and when the leader will die outside of losing the whole squad.

[Asmon]

here's an idea to solve this, how about once you purchase a squad leader he can still die and all that fun stuff, but when you go to repurchase the squad leader his cost is reduced to half or something?

That's what we've been asking for during about the past 2 years ;>

[Faultron]

for bansheez
leader in front is good especially aspect of strength vs vehicles for dealing damage
and this unit doesnt bleed in power unless leader dies.(this is something important to consider)

so unit like ogryn/purifiers are in a worse spot cos they bleed power anyway no matter who dies

[Nuclear Arbitor]

they better not be bleeding power very much given how much req the tend to bleed. if i want to bleed power i'll build anything else except guardians.

[Orkfaeller]

Not a fan of immortal leaders, but what annoys me most is just the inconsistency and lack of sense ( logic / gamedesign, not balancing whise ) behind it.

A Slugga Nob dies but a Shoota Nob doesnt?

Its one of those things that make DoWII not deep or complex, but unnecesary complicated and twisted imho.

[Sub_Zero]

I find it very logical that leaders who provide you detection can't die. Scout's leader is fragile and can be owned in 3-5 seconds. And you just spent 25 power to buy him. Ork's T2 leaders are the best leaders since they very rarely die due to their large health pool. I would make them more expensive than other leaders in the game purely because of that fact. And there is one OP thing exists - the FLESH HOOK! Just imagine you pull an immortal leader and you just stole 75 req / 25 power from your opponent and left him without detection.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

that's why it was changed to make detectors immortal. now however you can pull the leader and wipe 350/20 or whatever instead of just the leader.

[Orkfaeller]

Just imagine you pull an immortal leader and you just stole 75 req / 25 power from your opponent and left him without detection.

Now you can flesh hook the leader and just whipe the whole squad instead^^

Edith: whope, too slow

[Torpid]

Which really is just a testament to how stupidly designed abilities such as flesh hook are. I mean the brother captain is a chaos lord that can teleport, but to get flesh hook he has to wait until t2, sacrifice his teleport (which with him being so bulky and high-dps is a best ask) and pay 35 power, that seems fair, unlike him starting with it by default -_-

[Sub_Zero]

I believe it was designed to allow him to be a lone-hunter. Like he pulls any hero to his position and 1 v 1 him. But in fact the ability is used to pull any hero and 12311516236 v 1 him or just other cheap uses like pull in immortal leaders. This ability should be given only to the T3-lictor. The LA's flesh hook should be reworked since it is pretty broken to have such an ability in T1 with no cost whatsoever. However players do manage to counter it. Hive Tyrant, Brother Captain, Chaos Lord are immune to it; Force Commander, Lord Commissar, Warlock, Inquisitor have shields that provide them knockback immunity; Mekboy, Warp Spider Exarch, Chaos Sorcerer can teleport away; Plague Champion, Ravener Alpha can purchase T2 armors to be immune to it and other heroes have no natural ways to negate the OP Hook. But Apo can go for his grenades and his sanguine sword; Techmarine can go for his melee build; Kommando Nob and Warboss are rather glad to be pulled in since they can cause havoc after it, Farseer can use her gravity blade and other tricks, Lictor Alpha has this ability and well he is glad to be pulled in really; Lord General is tanky enough to survive it. And that is just what heroes can do to counter it. But you also have units that should help. And hence do this ability need to be fixed if every hero can counter it? Tell me what thing in the game cannot be countered? This thing will be truly overpowered. And things that can get countered by any army and any hero should not be considered as overpowered. Huh?

[Torpid]

Sure you can counter it like you can counter set-up teams with double the firing arc range as they have now, the problem would be that the cost of deploying the set-up team is far cheaper than the cost to counter it, so it's not balanced. This is the problem with nearly all those counters you listed. Teleporting heroes can attempt to avoid flesh hook with a teleport, but it also means they are unlikely to teleport until flesh hook is used, which can be nice. Are there pre-emptive micro/macro considerations that you can take to avoid being flesh hooked as you can say for example avoid being executed by the commissar or HOTWed by the INQ? Not really, due to the infiltration of the LA and the range of flesh hook.

So that could be one way to go about fixing it, reduce the range and/or the energy cost of flesh hook. That actually would be ideal because it would still retain the pull so it is useful against heroes (which I actually think is fine), but it's a bit easier to avoid on the victim side since the LA has to get closer and doesn't get to infiltrate for as long. Because he can't infiltrate as much and has to get closer it also makes flesh hook much less effective vs set-up teams (which I think is the most broken application of it).

This is one reason why warp throw is so overpowered. It's akin to flesh hook, but on a race with much more wipe potential and it affects squads not a model. It does have a longer casting time but unfortunately eldar play really works too well with warp throw. I very rarely won't have either rangers or shurikens as eldar and both of those units make it impossible to dodge a warp throw marker or not, and that just causes instant retreats of multiple squads or even wipes, that's far too cost effective in t2 and so it's OP.

[Forestradio]

Which really is just a testament to how stupidly designed abilities such as flesh hook are. I mean the brother captain is a chaos lord that can teleport, but to get flesh hook he has to wait until t2, sacrifice his teleport (which with him being so bulky and high-dps is a best ask) and pay 35 power, that seems fair, unlike him starting with it by default -_-

except that the brother captain is slower than the chaos lord, and has no leech life ability to heal him in the middle of melee engagements.

The teleporter pack is far less useful than the unending purge, which is a a must purchase if your brother captain wants to fight melee troops at all in T1.

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

In reply to Radio the Forest's original post; Ogryns actually have their squad leader next to the front normal model, identical positioning to the Space Marine Assault Squad, so losing the leader on Ogryns is mostly coincidental.

[Torpid]

except that the brother captain is slower than the chaos lord, and has no leech life ability to heal him in the middle of melee engagements.

The teleporter pack is far less useful than the unending purge, which is a a must purchase if your brother captain wants to fight melee troops at all in T1.

His first armour does more for durability vs everything than the unending purge does and in t2 he can more than handle his own vs melee so the teleport is amazing.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

fucking teleport and halberd vs IG. if you allow him to get stomped he's almost impossible to kill; especially with levels. probably decent against orks and eldar too.