GK strike squads current state.

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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GK strike squads current state.

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 8:29 am

At the moment it seems melee strike squads are just insane at the moment how they preform.

I was wondering could we make GK upkeep higher to help compensate?
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Torpid » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 9:53 am

Are they? 475/15 for a pure melee squad with no movement abilities or ways to counter suppression.

I should hope they do the t1 melee job fairly well at least. Remember banshees are 425/20 with the aspect (right?), but banshees also scale far better.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Asmon » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 4:59 pm

I wouldn't say insane but they certainly are very solid. Their heavy armor is what makes them shine because you have basically no way to damage them with piercing if they're in melee. The lack of movement is not an issue: you stand to shoot the incoming enemy before engaging in melee.

Again those upkeep stuff are nonsense. If you want to nerf them, remove their specials.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Atlas » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 5:40 pm

Asmon wrote:Again those upkeep stuff are nonsense. If you want to nerf them, remove their specials.


O.o

They need the upgrade just to get specials and specials are kind of a big deal to a melee squad. Why target the specials in particular?

Honestly, it's the Ranged version that needs more attention imo.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby boss » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 5:42 pm

Would rather both upgrades go up buy 5 power both of them are too cheap on there costs, gks already have one of the cheapest techs as it is
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Element » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 7:23 pm

Boss:
Would rather both upgrades go up buy 5 power both of them are too cheap on there costs, gks already have one of the cheapest techs as it is


I concur with boss here, address the cost of the purchase for the upgrades which cost almost close to nothing in relations to what they give, and then look into having to modify any actual technical/stat atrributes regarding the unit. at 20 power- they may need further adjustment at 25- power cost, the unit there would very much so, likely be no need for further adjustment. So there are definitely options available but, 15 power is way too cheap for what they gain in relations to the cost of the investment.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Atlas » Wed 03 Apr, 2019 1:24 am

I think that is a bit too insular of thinking. OM has a lot of power taxes in T1, particularly on IST and Strikes. It's very Eldar like in that way. Either Strike upgrade is basically mandatory and if you're only rolling default IST and like x2 melee Strike squad there's ways to shut it down.

In the grand scheme, I don't see why OM can be called power light. At least in any optimal play I can theory here. What makes people think OM fast tech is so lethal?
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 03 Apr, 2019 2:40 am

OM have tons of power taxes, especially in early T2. Melee SS also fall off pretty hard in T2, and struggle to stay relevant in the roster, especially with purifiers competing for a similar role - they need to have a more clearly defined purpose and role in the larger context of OM.

Personally I’m not a huge fan of raising the power cost of nemesis focus. Maybe decrease their damage instead?

In my mind, with nemesis focus SS should function as a very tanky melee squad that can bully most T1 units. They should be able to soak up lots of damage and keep other melee squads on their asses with melee specials, but they don’t need to be big damage dealers by themselves - IST and ops should be the primary dps in T1.

I would love to see changes that make SS worse at wiping units, and better at melee disruption and staying power.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Asmon » Wed 03 Apr, 2019 5:34 pm

I'd target the specials because it is what makes them win fights they shoudn't, for instance against shees or multiple sluggas/hormas.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Torpid » Wed 03 Apr, 2019 8:02 pm

Asmon wrote:I'd target the specials because it is what makes them win fights they shoudn't, for instance against shees or multiple sluggas/hormas.


But they should win those fights... They're a melee superiority unit that gets shut down when they charge in blindly and focus fired/suppressed. Without a doubt without those specials the squad would be awful for cost.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Asmon » Thu 04 Apr, 2019 10:51 am

Well that's your opinion. I certainly think they should lose those fights. Upgraded T1 shees cannot win vs 2 sluggas or hormas for instance (well sometimes hormas if both squads attack at the same time and eat lots of specials), and they are a melee superioty unit. SS shouldn't be one. As someone said, there are Justicars for this in T2.

What happened with SS is just an analogy for what GK has become. GK has no longer a clear identity, which is to me the only reason to create a new race in the first place. And with a T3 way too strong, the race is cheesy af and not interesting at all to play or play against.

At first Caeltos created GK with a weakness to melee in T1: no suppression, few control abilities. It was arguably too hard for them. They were all-rounders with modest performances.

Then we introduced a lot of snares, kb abilities etc... which are now more than enough to deal with melee. Especially considering how OP operatives are. And on top of this we make SS better at melee than shees?! Oh sure they have no movement abilities, but this is irrelevant, in the same way slow heroes that are invulnerable to kb and suppression are OP, because once they're in melee, you've lost the melee fight. You don't charge with them. You counter-initiate.

So in the end I don't think melee SS should be so strong. They even delete a t1 melee hero with weapon upgrade, since they lose dps much less quickly than other dedicated melee squads (for they have only 3 members).
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Nurland » Thu 04 Apr, 2019 2:30 pm

Meh. Strike scaling is pretty bad so I don't mind a good early game performance
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Atlas » Thu 04 Apr, 2019 7:18 pm

Asmon wrote:Well that's your opinion. I certainly think they should lose those fights. Upgraded T1 shees cannot win vs 2 sluggas or hormas for instance (well sometimes hormas if both squads attack at the same time and eat lots of specials), and they are a melee superioty unit. SS shouldn't be one. As someone said, there are Justicars for this in T2.

...

So in the end I don't think melee SS should be so strong. They even delete a t1 melee hero with weapon upgrade, since they lose dps much less quickly than other dedicated melee squads (for they have only 3 members).

Strike Squads with Nemesis have 379.5 hp each for 40.25 dph/~31 dps melee, 10.5 dps piercing and Purification. 475/15.
Raptors have 350 hp each for 40 dph/30.77 dps melee, 10.5 dps piercing and Jump. 400/40.
ASM have 400 hp each for 35 dph/26.92 dps melee, 7.3 dps piercing and Jump. 450/50.

Their specials are copy/paste as far as I know as well.

Unless you are about to sit here and claim that ASM or Raptors are able to solo 2 sluggas or hormas or whatever, then I call total BS. Of all of the units mentioned, upgrade Banshees would probably have the BEST chance to take 2x melee squads because the specials dice are loaded in their favor with higher model counts and (iirc) faster attack speed compared to HI T1 melee squads and there's a better chance they can keep those units on their backs long enough to win.

And the Justicar is basically a copy/paste ASM sarg with a better sidearm which doesn't really matter when talking melee fights. He does benefit from the nemesis bonus and get Energy Burst however. Still, the general opinion I've heard is Strikes fall off regardless. And I've heard the Ranged version is way worse than the melee one as of this moment.

And I'll just bite because I'm curious... what exactly would you do to OM T3 so that it is not "cheesy af"?
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Torpid » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 12:07 am

The specials ARE NOT copy/paste Atlas, they have a larger radius to attack, do more damage and more kb distance. If I recall correctly... Not on my PC to check cope's atm, but it is not a copy/paste. They're very dependent on those specials to do the job of anti melee as we all know ASM, and certainly not raptors are NOT dedicated melee unit counters.

@asmon - Operatives are OP? Really? Could you elaborate on this. Shees don't have the same potential to hold their ground and fend off 2 horms/2sluggas compared to melee strikes, and for similar cost, yes. I believe that is fine because to compensate shees can catch fleeing ranged units with fleet/scream and instantly force retreats, as well as move about between supporting units faster - eldar also have the best SUT to help them vs melee whereas OM have to rely on purgation which suck vs 3 model HI squads/heroes and in general is a less reliable melee counter than a shuriken whilst the shuriken also is great vs ranged units.

Then you add onto that the fact that the strike squad justicar is so bad compared to the banshee exarch - that heavy melee, huge dps increase and massive resistance to reanged damage whilst fleeting far far outweights the helpfulness of energy burst, the smaller dps rise/power melee, and the hp buff the justicar grants and the justicar is higher upkeep too.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Asmon » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 12:26 pm

Atlas you should test ingame and see what happens. SS specials for sure are way better than ASM's and Raptors (which are not dedicated melee as Torpid reminds us). And we are not talking in a vaccum here. ASM, Raptors and shees go into the fights against mostly full hp enemy melee, while SS do a little damage at range before engaging. And this behavior alone allows them to land more specials, because of the -2 MS that is inflicted upon incoming units. At least that's what I have seen. I'd say also that I have, on a few occasion, won 1vs2 with shees thanks to specials. Well, it is easier with SS.

About T3, I've been in the one-terminator-squad-per-player wagon a long time. It's stupid enough SM and Chaos can field several of them, I've always advocated against this, but at least in 1v1 you're rarely able to do it. You either win or lose with one squad (mostly win I'd bet). So you can understand why I think GK T3 is cheesy. Not to mention they can have another Terminator-like unit in the form of a fully-kitted BC, alike to Termi FC (that is badly designed also imo, as I've said before).

But to be clear, we play a game where squad preservation is key and bleed must be controlled. Only heroes, vehicles and monstruous creatures are granted the no-bleed gift (though vehicles need repair). Squads with very high hp per model tend to avoid the bleed issue in ways that have always been difficult to balance. Nobz can be suppressed and kb-ed, Terminators can't retreat etc... But then you can buff Nobz to suppression and kb-resistance. You can VoT your terminators... Those things add up and often become out-of-control. And with GK, we're way past the out-of-control frontier. Especially given the crazy abilities those squads can get. And they even had anti-armor ranged weapons for a patch or two!

By comparison, seer council has long been felt as a bad, underwhelming unit, with a lot of weaknesses, no ability, and ok-ish dps. Yet, they would be considered fine (and are almost fine atm) if they did not walk in the shadows of Terminators. They have well-defined strenghts and weakness. They have 5 models with 500 hp each which is the perfect middle-ground. They lack some good abilities (that we tried to address by increasing their ranged dps, lul who tf remembers and tries to use this? I know I barely do) but in the end they are more or less what an elite infantry squad should be in this game.

Torpid, in a nutshell I think operatives are too good for their cost. They feel as useful as catachans, yet cost 1 third less, so you're never really in a situation where you can say it's a risky move to get them.

About SS/shees, well shees are dedicated melee. You get them and voilà. SS are not at first, and it makes them too good imo. If SS were a melee unit from the beginning, then I would mind less their performance with the nemesis upgrade (though I would tone down the specials a bit). At the moment, you can damage safely at range, then work your way into melee if you need to, and timing the upgrade for this move to be super-effective is not difficult at all.

Alright that is a long read.
Last edited by Asmon on Fri 05 Apr, 2019 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Impregnable » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 1:41 pm

I would also like to add that All GK T1 squads do damages in Bursts. I am sure there is a reason why other factions are not designed to do burst damage on T1 units.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Lunatic » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 4:18 pm

Wouldn't it make more sense to compare SS to TAC and CSM? The stats and tactics among the three marine squads variants are much more similar, pre upgrades. They don't seem too far off.

HP per Model: TAC (350) SS (330) CSM (325)
Piercing DPS: TAC (14.58) SS (10.5) CSM (13.42)
P. Melee DPS: TAC (19) SS (26.96) CSM (22)
Deploy Cost: TAC (450/0) SS (400/0) CSM (400/0)

Jumper squads like ASM and Raptors, while also melee, are functionally different. Banshees, while also melee, are statistically different (more models, more total dps, Power melee, but much less health per model, and only have Infantry armor). I'd argue that Jumpers or Banshees shouldn't be used as the best standard for gauging SS as there is a higher variance between them and SS.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Broodwich » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 6:17 pm

Asmon wrote:Atlas you should test ingame and see what happens. SS specials for sure are way better than ASM's and Raptors (which are not dedicated melee as Torpid reminds us). And we are not talking in a vaccum here. ASM, Raptors and shees go into the fights against mostly full hp enemy melee, while SS do a little damage at range before engaging. And this behavior alone allows them to land more specials, because of the -2 MS that is inflicted upon incoming units. At least that's what I have seen. I'd say also that I have, on a few occasion, won 1vs2 with shees thanks to specials. Well, it is easier with SS.

units in melee charge do not lose MS, fyi.

I'm assuming this SS you speak of that beat two shee squads had mind blades, potentially we are the hammer, other squads shooting them, etc. There is no way they would win that fight in a vacuum without buffs

Let's keep GK T3 in another thread
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Atlas » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 7:38 pm

Torpid wrote:The specials ARE NOT copy/paste Atlas, they have a larger radius to attack, do more damage and more kb distance. If I recall correctly... Not on my PC to check cope's atm, but it is not a copy/paste. They're very dependent on those specials to do the job of anti melee as we all know ASM, and certainly not raptors are NOT dedicated melee unit counters.

...

Yes they basically are. I just went to Cope's and unless I am missing something, the Strike Special on halberd_marine_nemesis_force is radius 5 in -70 to 70 whereas ASM and Raptors are radius 4 in -70 to 70. Raptors do 31 melee on its special, Strikes and ASM do 27. They all do kback of 7. They are basically the exact same with a minute difference in radius. But 1 radius is hardly generating the earth shattering results we are talking about. Damage bonus from the upgrade doesn't affect the specials because the upgrade just swaps out their halberds and doesn't apply any modifiers to damage.

Asmon wrote:Atlas you should test ingame and see what happens. SS specials for sure are way better than ASM's and Raptors (which are not dedicated melee as Torpid reminds us). And we are not talking in a vaccum here. ASM, Raptors and shees go into the fights against mostly full hp enemy melee, while SS do a little damage at range before engaging. And this behavior alone allows them to land more specials, because of the -2 MS that is inflicted upon incoming units. At least that's what I have seen. I'd say also that I have, on a few occasion, won 1vs2 with shees thanks to specials. Well, it is easier with SS.

...

About SS/shees, well shees are dedicated melee. You get them and voilà. SS are not at first, and it makes them too good imo. If SS were a melee unit from the beginning, then I would mind less their performance with the nemesis upgrade (though I would tone down the specials a bit). At the moment, you can damage safely at range, then work your way into melee if you need to, and timing the upgrade for this move to be super-effective is not difficult at all.

Alright that is a long read.

You also have to consider that ASM/Raptors also tend to ENTER melee fights at mostly full hp as well whereas Strikes need to close distance. @Ranged damage, as mentioned in the readout earlier too, Raptors and Strikes have the same ranged dps so even if the ranged attacks are better than the jump, why wouldn't Raptors just do that then? I think players intuitively understand this point in their play.

And yeah, I don't see where them charging in on someone gets more benefit from the -2 MS to moving units as opposed to jump units disrupting formations and making units close on them.

I just don't see the problem at all in the last part, especially the part about timing the upgrade. Not only is it a one-time tactic, but the ranged dps doesn't change between default and nemesis strikes so the tactic is literally pointless unless you are trying to angle for the melee charge or something? Only Psybolt Strikes get a damage bonus on ranged damage.

Impregnable wrote:I would also like to add that All GK T1 squads do damages in Bursts. I am sure there is a reason why other factions are not designed to do burst damage on T1 units.

IST sure, but Strikes share the burst pattern of regular bolters with minor differences. Purgs also I wouldn't call a "burst weapon" either. Idk, I guess if you call Cata Shotguns burst weapons then you can say the same from Ops. So really maybe batting .500? I don't particularly see what this has to do with Strikes in any event.

Lunatic wrote:Wouldn't it make more sense to compare SS to TAC and CSM? The stats and tactics among the three marine squads variants are much more similar, pre upgrades. They don't seem too far off.

I've used that comparison because they're basically the only other 3 model HI melee T1 troops in the game. If you feel your comparison is better, have at it and let us know what you conclude from the comparison.

Broodwich wrote:Units in melee charge do not lose MS, fyi.

I'm assuming this SS you speak of that beat two shee squads had mind blades, potentially we are the hammer, other squads shooting them, etc. There is no way they would win that fight in a vacuum without buffs.

No one has mentioned globals or buffs so I'm presuming we all mean default nemesis strikes. I'll double check on the charge, you may be right but I need to dig in Cope's to be sure. Also he was talking about 2x sluggas, hormas things of that nature. I presume you can add tics to that list.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Broodwich » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 10:42 pm

Atlas wrote:No one has mentioned globals or buffs so I'm presuming we all mean default nemesis strikes. I'll double check on the charge, you may be right but I need to dig in Cope's to be sure. Also he was talking about 2x sluggas, hormas things of that nature. I presume you can add tics to that list.

https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=e ... sary#skill
A moving model has its Melee Skill reduced by 2 points. While this only slightly increases susceptibility to special attacks for already overmatched models, it can allow a slightly underskilled model to tie, and grant a small chance of pulling off a special attack on a moving enemy trying to slip past. This -2 penalty does not apply to models that are in "Charging" mode (a movement state when a model is moving toward an enemy to engage in melee).

Lotta good stuff in there, including your favorite... upkeep :D
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Atlas » Fri 05 Apr, 2019 11:12 pm

KK, ty!
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Torpid » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 5:04 am

I am suspicious of those purported stats on the strike squad special i must admit, but perhaps the extra 25% radius is a bigger deal than it might seem upon first inspection?

And 2 tics should beat nemmy strike squad quite handily I imagine simply because the SS cannot special them.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Asmon » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 12:46 pm

Broodwich wrote:units in melee charge do not lose MS, fyi.

I'm assuming this SS you speak of that beat two shee squads had mind blades, potentially we are the hammer, other squads shooting them, etc. There is no way they would win that fight in a vacuum without buffs

Let's keep GK T3 in another thread


No they don't, but you know melee charges have cd, and wear off often when the squad reaches its target. And sometimes, a model will start walking around to find a space where to fight, because only about 3 models can attack the same enemy model in a big fight, and it allows for such messy pathings. It may be a minor thing, but still it happens.

I was not talking about 1 SS beating 2 shees, I was talking about 1 shees beating 2 hormas. It isn't the regular case, but it can happen thanks to specials. And my point was that SS can do it even more reliably.

I spoke about T3 because Atlas asked.

Torpid I am also suspicious about those stats being the same. I feel that at least the angle of the special is broader and the kb distance is bigger. I certainly remember that upon first iteration, the specials were so insane everyone was complaining about, so they got reduced in power, but still remaining better than ASM's for instance.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby boss » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 3:58 pm

I still say it should cost 20 power 15 too lower for what melee ss can do as no one seems to be getting range ones and that should tell you right there. A 15 power upgrade that adds heath, damage buff, more melee skill and a melee special just too good
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Crewfinity » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 4:47 pm

boss wrote:I still say it should cost 20 power 15 too lower for what melee ss can do as no one seems to be getting range ones and that should tell you right there. A 15 power upgrade that adds heath, damage buff, more melee skill and a melee special just too good

I think that’s more of a result of ranged SS lacking rather than melee SS overperforming.

I still very much disagree that melee SS overperform. They’re slow and don’t scale, even if they are good in T1
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Black Relic » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 5:20 pm

I still think SS should just be a ranged unit with some melee capabilities tbh. And Nemesis focus just allows some melee versatility. That way the unit doesn't scale as bad. But nemesis focus be a anti-melee option in t1 than doesn't restrict their scaling into a range sup unit in t2. But complement them.

So it gives them a special attack and HP. That's it. Nothing special. No charge, or increase melee damage. This way they are still a good melee combatant in t1 and shees would still think twice before going in. Can still be used as a counter initiation unit.

Or allow SS to purchase their Leader in t1 but the ability for him are not unlocked til t2. And remove NF but allow SS the special attack when the Leader is around.

Gosh idk. OM are weird atm. It feels like they are tying to have the option of playing like Chaos or Space Marines with a touch of Eldar and the player chooses which route.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Atlas » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 6:53 pm

Torpid wrote:I am suspicious of those purported stats on the strike squad special i must admit...

Asmon wrote:Torpid I am also suspicious about those stats being the same. I feel that at least the angle of the special is broader and the kb distance is bigger...


Iirc, we changed the area of the strike special from a 360 to the -70 to 70 cone. But idk, there might have been more.

EDIT: The different chance and duration on their special attack directory is fine. The "chance" there refers to the chance the model selects that special attack should it have multiple special attacks and the duration is how long the animations run if I got this right.
boss wrote:I still say it should cost 20 power 15 too lower for what melee ss can do as no one seems to be getting range ones and that should tell you right there. A 15 power upgrade that adds heath, damage buff, more melee skill and a melee special just too good

Default strikes are just badddd right now because you specialize them one way or the other atm. That's why they get these slew of bonuses for both upgrades - just to put them in the range of where they should be if they were a melee/range troop. Coming out of the gate they are worse than their other HI comparisons in basically every way.
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 8:37 pm

Why not make SS a ranged unit with decent melee for T1
And give them a melee upgrade for t2?

Maybe just maybe give them power melee t2 or something
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Lunatic » Sat 06 Apr, 2019 10:11 pm

SOLID SQUIG wrote:Why not make SS a ranged unit with decent melee for T1
And give them a melee upgrade for t2?

Maybe just maybe give them power melee t2 or something

It's probably best to focus on the melee potential of SS and less on their ranged potential. Nemesis SS is clearly the better of the two, and most likely the original plan for SS (as their initial melee dps is greater than TAC/CSM but their ranged is lesser to TAC/CSM). That versatility and overall strength of OM marine units is most likely why players are getting fed up with OM to begin with (the other reason being lack of identity?). I mean, since 2.9.1 hit, it has been Purifiers talk, Purgation talk, OM is OP talk, and now SS talk. People are pissed with OM :lol:
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Re: GK strike squads current state.

Postby Black Relic » Sun 07 Apr, 2019 5:08 am

SS used to be a decent range and melee combatant with better melee but worse range. It was ok but not great.

I would like psy bolts change the range weapons of the units to kraken_pvp damage and then allow them to have their old psycannnon weapon upgrade back so OM can get some range sup again. But that role is now the purgation now i think.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54

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