(Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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DanielGrushin
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(Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby DanielGrushin » Thu 28 Mar, 2019 7:32 am

It's not a secret that IG struggles against set-up teams and Spotters were added to help IG deal with those said set-up teams in T1. They are a good unit but they underperform against 2-3 set-up teams builds.

Most of the time when you play against mass set-up teams you have to face check where are those HWT's are deployed. If you are face cheking with Spotters enemy can focus down them very quickly and force to retreat them unless you got lucky and called arty on set-up team before it managed to supress you. If you are face checking with your GU then you'll probably lose the following fight because your GU still be supressed after you call arty on the HWT.
If you are face checking with your sent or hero you're risking to lose them in the following fight since other ranged squads will focus them down after initial barrage from HWT.

What I suggest is that Spotters should have increased sight radius (55). Currently it doesn't make sense not lore wise nor balance wise why Kasrkin and Storm Trooper squads have better sight radius than Spotters. It will help them to call support without being exposed to set-up teams fire and scout ahead for the IG army.

Another suggestion is to allow them to have sniper rifle after upgrading them for let's say 100 REQ/15 ENR. They will lose arty call-ins and gain Infiltration and Mark Target ability (Mark Enemy Squad for 25 seconds. You are able to see this squad in FOW and deal increased ranged and courage damage to them or increased courage damage and increased accuracy against them. 60 Energy cost/35 sec CD). Snipers are very fitting to IG all-ranged roster and will become another counter to set-up teams.

I understand that snipers are a massive cancer and IG already have enough cancer but fighting mass set-up teams are almost impossible as IG, especially SM HWT with Vengeance Rounds. You bleed like no tomorrow against them. I don't understand why this faceroll ability is still in the game.

Appreciate if you leave a feedback and share some thoughts on how to counter set-up teams builds as IG on high lvl (lmao) play.
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hiveminion
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby hiveminion » Thu 28 Mar, 2019 8:10 am

No thank you. Spotters gave IG the best setup team counter in the game, one squad can already deal with two units with each of their shells. That's unlike jump infantry who can only jump one squad and have to risk model losses going in as well.
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Torpid
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby Torpid » Thu 28 Mar, 2019 9:24 am

You "face-check" with the unbleedable, very difficult to kill 30hp/s regen sentinels... Then in T2 you swap to a chimera, have the spotter flare for line of sight (as well as servo skull as inquisitor) and can also use infiltrated stormtroopers.
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Rostam
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby Rostam » Thu 28 Mar, 2019 10:03 am

btw, is the problem with Spotters "not affecting Pdevs" is fixed?
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DanielGrushin
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby DanielGrushin » Thu 28 Mar, 2019 10:50 am

hiveminion wrote:No thank you. Spotters gave IG the best setup team counter in the game, one squad can already deal with two units with each of their shells. That's unlike jump infantry who can only jump one squad and have to risk model losses going in as well.

They can't fight like ASM/Raptors/Raveners/Memeboys tho. Usually you need to spend both shells to shut down one HWT since IG dps in t1 is quite low and we are talking about situations when you face multiple HWT's. Once you used both shells you have squad that can't do anything for 40 sec.

Torpid wrote:You "face-check" with the unbleedable, very difficult to kill 30hp/s regen sentinels... Then in T2 you swap to a chimera, have the spotter flare for line of sight (as well as servo skull as inquisitor) and can also use infiltrated stormtroopers.

You still waste time repairing sents. We're talking about T1. All this possibilities are opening in T2 except for servo skull but why would you ever upgrade it when you have rosarius in the same spot. Flare is terrible since it activates CD on smoke.
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Thu 28 Mar, 2019 1:52 pm

1 shell should be enough to force off a setup team. You use the first shell to knock the setup team out of cover and close to your army and then focus fire them. Ig has pretty decent ranged damage in t1 actually with double sergeant gm and sent.
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Sun 31 Mar, 2019 9:29 pm

Rather not fight more sniper dps if spotters got a sniper weapon I fear it would just turn into sniper spam 2.0 and with a LG with sniper and combined with the shells. Well then IG would be the next best sniper spam.

This would just be too much. Power armor armies would just melt.
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby Atlas » Sun 31 Mar, 2019 10:37 pm

Rostam wrote:btw, is the problem with Spotters "not affecting Pdevs" is fixed?


No and it won't unless we change the projectile type of the plasma cannon. It's the same reason Flare doesn't affect them either.

I would say no to any bonuses or abilities, but I think it would be interesting to give the squad a sniper upgrade in T2. Yes, I know the squad is a support unit and is not there for dps. But c'mon man, their damage is just pitiful. Even default scouts out-shoot them. Now, whether the sniper rifle works with their animator is another question.
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby boss » Sun 31 Mar, 2019 10:39 pm

Would rather spotters get detection then more sight range means you won't need catas so much.
Snipers for them would let them kill as well as nuke stuff not good and not needed.

Only way people can beat ig is mass setup teams until this get change then no buffs pls
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Telos
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby Telos » Mon 01 Apr, 2019 4:36 am

Atlas wrote:I would say no to any bonuses or abilities, but I think it would be interesting to give the squad a sniper upgrade in T2. Yes, I know the squad is a support unit and is not there for dps. But c'mon man, their damage is just pitiful. Even default scouts out-shoot them. Now, whether the sniper rifle works with their animator is another question.


As much as I love Gaunt's Ghosts, please no more snipers in this game... At least until the way snipers work is changed so it feels less like cancer.
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby Black Relic » Mon 01 Apr, 2019 6:08 am

Atlas wrote:
Rostam wrote:btw, is the problem with Spotters "not affecting Pdevs" is fixed?


No and it won't unless we change the projectile type of the plasma cannon. It's the same reason Flare doesn't affect them either.

I would say no to any bonuses or abilities, but I think it would be interesting to give the squad a sniper upgrade in T2. Yes, I know the squad is a support unit and is not there for dps. But c'mon man, their damage is just pitiful. Even default scouts out-shoot them. Now, whether the sniper rifle works with their animator is another question.


No it wont.

Maybe just have the spotter had a lasgun with decent range that auto call in shells on their target. Or something rather than an ability?? Honestly just need a Mortor weapon model. And the Squad is instantly better and exactly what Caeltos wanted way back when.

And what is the issue with the projectile type of the Plasma cannon?? Is it because its artillery and not a missile anymore??
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Torpid
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby Torpid » Mon 01 Apr, 2019 1:31 pm

Mortar teams are more than enough cancer in TT I think... Let's not add that cancer here to.

@atlas Looking at the stats it would appear that spotters can out-shoot scouts. It is not clear to me why spotter's should be doing more damage than ordinary guardsmen with their lasguns so if anything I'd prefer to see their damage reduced.

Ultimately spotters are one of IG's most powerful units, definitely the best scaling unit in t1 one and the only thing that stops them being outright the best unit is that they are niche.
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby Atlas » Mon 01 Apr, 2019 6:52 pm

Black Relic wrote:And what is the issue with the projectile type of the Plasma cannon?? Is it because its artillery and not a missile anymore??


Basically yes. I was told by Myrdal that was the reason for abilities that reduce range not affecting them. Reverting them would fix it but those weapons would no longer arc to their target.

If you could look into it for a more elegant solution, I'd take it!

Torpid wrote:Looking at the stats it would appear that spotters can out-shoot scouts. It is not clear to me why spotter's should be doing more damage than ordinary guardsmen with their lasguns so if anything I'd prefer to see their damage reduced.


I just looked at codex. Spotters pull around 6 something dps and scouts are around 7.5 dps each on their bolters.

-------

Anyway, this is all academic now as Black Relic confirmed sniper rifles don't work with the IG animators so unless we change their animators then that's it. But that could introduce whole new problems soooo unless we really want to do this it's not worth the effort.
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Telos
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby Telos » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 4:55 am

Atlas wrote:I just looked at codex. Spotters pull around 6 something dps and scouts are around 7.5 dps each on their bolters.


Does it really matter if their dps is lower than scouts? It seems like their utility is the main point and if they're in range to fire at something they're probably in a bad position. But couldn't this be resolved by increasing the accuracy of their lasguns? It would make sense they'd be more accurate being spotters and all.

Atlas wrote:Anyway, this is all academic now as Black Relic confirmed sniper rifles don't work with the IG animators so unless we change their animators then that's it. But that could introduce whole new problems soooo unless we really want to do this it's not worth the effort.


What about making the upgrade call in a new squad, similar to Vanguard vets, and replacing them with reskinned scout snipers with different abilities/stats? Not the most elegant solution, or even sure how feasible it is, but if people really want snipers on IG...
Atlas

Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby Atlas » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 7:11 am

Yeah but... why? The idea is pretty lukewarm even in this thread and that's a lot of work :(

I just thought the snipers gave the spotters a bit more to do. They pretty much just click Q and W and.. that's about it right now.
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby Nurland » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 7:19 am

Do they actually need to be better than they currently are in straight up combat? I mean they have great abilities that scale well. Why would they need to be able to solo bleed enemies as well?
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Telos
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby Telos » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 7:26 am

Atlas wrote:I just thought the snipers gave the spotters a bit more to do. They pretty much just click Q and W and.. that's about it right now.


Two skillshot abilities with high utility on a single squad is kind of a lot isn't it? What more should they be doing?
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Re: (Suggestion) IG Spotter Squad sight increase and sniper kit upgrade

Postby Asmon » Tue 02 Apr, 2019 5:02 pm

Nurland wrote:Do they actually need to be better than they currently are in straight up combat? I mean they have great abilities that scale well. Why would they need to be able to solo bleed enemies as well?


No they don't. Spotters are fine, one might even say very strong, move on.

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