(Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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(Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 11:09 pm

Hear me out.

every single hero has 3 or 4 weapon options.

The sorc only has 2.

My suggestion is a T3 melee weapon to help him scale into the later part of the game.
something the has either strong power melee or Heavy melee.

maybe giving him some more durability stats like health? or maybe health on hit or Health re gen?

For a model for the weapon I suggest maybe the blood letter sword thats in last stand?

not trying to break balance just think its a good option.

discuss please
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Torpid » Thu 21 Mar, 2019 11:39 pm

Been thought about for years but never had a solid suggestion. Once it's implemented it is implemented and changes a lot. We look silly if we keep changing his 3rd weapon every patch.

do you have a concrete suggestion? Heavy melee is a definite no since he can teleport, it would be too strong even in t3, and he is a support hero not a force commander or something similar.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SarDauk » Fri 22 Mar, 2019 2:08 am

At some point they have been some serious talk about a new staff in T1 to help sorcerer to deal with aggressive heroes. Why have the ideas been abandoned ?
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Fri 22 Mar, 2019 5:02 am

I guess there wasn't enough steam to push it forward. I never said I was against that. And tbf, no one else stood against it at that time.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Fri 22 Mar, 2019 5:16 am

my best suggestion is something that has alot of power melee for sure for dmg.

then possible stats for durablity.

how about maybe a shield or invul? would help him survive that later game burst alot thing just nuke him when he tele or walks in.

T3 the sorc kinda gets out damaged and out tanked but alot stuff.
So im perfectly fine if hes just given a sword thats just strong power dps as its only thing.

as for dealing with the more aggressive heroes T3 I seriously think giving him some more tanky options would be nice, if even slighty.
Or just give him a weapon that specifically does more damage to heroes and commander armor. It would give him a option against the over tanky heroes that can just rekt him early. But not be broken against everything else.

That or maybe a energy stealing weapon? similar too the apoc axe? cause T3 on sorc you usually have more abilities than you can handle from just the armor war gear and the accessory.

those are my top suggestions i can think of that wouldn't be over powered(I think).

but he seriously needs a weapon that can help his DPS in the later game.

As for a model once again I suggest the Daemon sword from last stand, that way its not the same as his regular staff upgrade.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Fri 22 Mar, 2019 7:18 am

SOLID SQUIG wrote:T3 the sorc kinda gets out damaged and out tanked but alot stuff.


He doesn't need to make a lot of damage. T3 Sorcerer with his levels and wargears is like a god! You can do a lot of damage if you combine Chains, Subjugation, Warpfire, dark flmes and shit. Other heroes can't have the same performance with raw damage.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Fri 22 Mar, 2019 6:59 pm

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:
SOLID SQUIG wrote:T3 the sorc kinda gets out damaged and out tanked but alot stuff.


He doesn't need to make a lot of damage. T3 Sorcerer with his levels and wargears is like a god! You can do a lot of damage if you combine Chains, Subjugation, Warpfire, dark flmes and shit. Other heroes can't have the same performance with raw damage.



Fair enough but he still needs a another weapon, I think a sword with engery drain on hit would be good. With maybe a properity of doing more damage to commanders.

But seriously it needs a higher dps per swing.
T3 the sorc May have a bunch of CC and fancy abilities but when terminators and other crazy heavy things running around he can’t really do anything but hit like a wet noodle. Maybe a psychic damage weapon? With maybe that damage effect like the GK purifiers have that does special damage to vechs?
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Fri 22 Mar, 2019 8:25 pm

Also please don’t let this post die.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Kvn » Fri 22 Mar, 2019 9:20 pm

SOLID SQUIG wrote:Fair enough but he still needs a another weapon, I think a sword with engery drain on hit would be good. With maybe a properity of doing more damage to commanders.

But seriously it needs a higher dps per swing.
T3 the sorc May have a bunch of CC and fancy abilities but when terminators and other crazy heavy things running around he can’t really do anything but hit like a wet noodle. Maybe a psychic damage weapon? With maybe that damage effect like the GK purifiers have that does special damage to vechs?


Can't do anything? I mean, I don't want to sound harsh here, but that's pretty far off the mark. Chaos Sorc can mind control enemy units with subjugation, and pin down things like Terms with Chains of Torment, allowing his army to shoot the now-helpless squad to death while the opponent can't do anything to save them. Heck, going for heavy investment infantry (especially Terminators) vs the Sorc has been a bad idea for a very long time due to those kinds of tricks, and that's not even touching on his rifts, teleportation, teleporting allies, etc. that he can pull.

Long story short, the Sorcerer doesn't hit hard because he's a Sorcerer, not a warrior. He's not meant to hit hard with his melee weapon anymore than the Farseer is. He's got a bunch of strong spells that he can use to cripple the enemy and generally mess things up. It's more complicated to play him well than the other two Chaos champions, but he can do some crazy things. Making him into a duelist/melee monster is both unnecessary and a contradiction to the way he's thematically designed.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Fri 22 Mar, 2019 10:45 pm

Kvn wrote:
SOLID SQUIG wrote:Fair enough but he still needs a another weapon, I think a sword with engery drain on hit would be good. With maybe a properity of doing more damage to commanders.

But seriously it needs a higher dps per swing.
T3 the sorc May have a bunch of CC and fancy abilities but when terminators and other crazy heavy things running around he can’t really do anything but hit like a wet noodle. Maybe a psychic damage weapon? With maybe that damage effect like the GK purifiers have that does special damage to vechs?


Can't do anything? I mean, I don't want to sound harsh here, but that's pretty far off the mark. Chaos Sorc can mind control enemy units with subjugation, and pin down things like Terms with Chains of Torment, allowing his army to shoot the now-helpless squad to death while the opponent can't do anything to save them. Heck, going for heavy investment infantry (especially Terminators) vs the Sorc has been a bad idea for a very long time due to those kinds of tricks, and that's not even touching on his rifts, teleportation, teleporting allies, etc. that he can pull.

Long story short, the Sorcerer doesn't hit hard because he's a Sorcerer, not a warrior. He's not meant to hit hard with his melee weapon anymore than the Farseer is. He's got a bunch of strong spells that he can use to cripple the enemy and generally mess things up. It's more complicated to play him well than the other two Chaos champions, but he can do some crazy things. Making him into a duelist/melee monster is both unnecessary and a contradiction to the way he's thematically designed.


Alright then. I get what your saying then how about a melee weapon with a support focus? Like maybe it has a spell that can buff a ally unit?

All I’m saying is he needs a 3rd weapon with a slightly higher dps in t3 I believe the flame sword is around 50 power dps, just give him something that has around 75-80 dps, it doesn’t have to have a ground breaking crazy ability or interaction but I do think it should either give give him another support spell or self stats. While he may have a awesome t3 item in the subjugation doom bolt doesn’t really scale crazy in later game he has a lot of early and mid game stuff IMO but late game his diversity is still not great.

I’m just saying either give him another option. Or give him a item that just buffs his stats for the later portion.

Or how about a sword that buffs doom bolt? Wouldnt break him IMO and still keep him in line with his style of play. Just have it strong DPS like 80ish and it buffs his doombolt.(maybe just a gives him more enegry? Or makes doom bolt half cost for full dmg?)

What’s wrong with given him a stronger melee weapon? Almost every single other melee hero has better melee dps. Hell even the Libby upgraded can duel him better.

Please I don’t want to break the hero and make him OP becoming the next Warp spider or slam captain.

But I think we can come up with a viable fun option for him.

Please discuss
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Atlas » Sat 23 Mar, 2019 5:53 am

From what I remember about the concept ideas for the Sorc's new weapons, they were T1 variants that were meant to lock down single entities. I'll keep watching this thread.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Sat 23 Mar, 2019 5:10 pm

Atlas wrote:From what I remember about the concept ideas for the Sorc's new weapons, they were T1 variants that were meant to lock down single entities. I'll keep watching this thread.



A target stun wouldn’t be out of this world to see
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Mon 25 Mar, 2019 3:07 am

could a dev please give thoughts on this?
Atlas

Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Atlas » Mon 25 Mar, 2019 5:19 am

SOLID SQUIG wrote:could a dev please give thoughts on this?


I tried to dig the old notes out but couldn't find them. I'll try to recite from memory.

The idea was either a new bolt pistol or a staff and the ability was certain variants of control on a single entity. One was basically like Mind War, one was more like a snipe ability and I don't remember the last one.

But yeah, targeted stun/suppression/slow, something like that.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Mon 25 Mar, 2019 7:03 pm

Atlas wrote:
SOLID SQUIG wrote:could a dev please give thoughts on this?


I tried to dig the old notes out but couldn't find them. I'll try to recite from memory.

The idea was either a new bolt pistol or a staff and the ability was certain variants of control on a single entity. One was basically like Mind War, one was more like a snipe ability and I don't remember the last one.

But yeah, targeted stun/suppression/slow, something like that.



I like the idea of that a pistol or weapon With said target cc ability sounds good. That’s got my vote

All and all i just want another option at this point

But in all seriousness he needs a item with heath regen he none I get he has consume but it doesn’t really heal that well later game, maybe add a scaling to it?

Also deamon sword model.

Please don’t let that be a wasted opportunity.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Oddnerd » Mon 25 Mar, 2019 7:41 pm

The only thing about CS that is a problem is the fact that certain offensive commanders, particularly FC, make him their bitch in T1.

Is a targeted stun or suppression that lasts long enough to make a difference in that particular MU going to be fair in any other context? I feel like a crippling talon style weapon would be the only solution, but that would also be a buff to a hero who is already in every other regard extremely potent. In theory it would punish people who invest too heavily in their commander while being unimpressive against multiple model squads.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SarDauk » Mon 25 Mar, 2019 7:57 pm

Atlas wrote:
I tried to dig the old notes out but couldn't find them. I'll try to recite from memory.

The idea was either a new bolt pistol or a staff and the ability was certain variants of control on a single entity. One was basically like Mind War, one was more like a snipe ability and I don't remember the last one.

But yeah, targeted stun/suppression/slow, something like that.


If I remember correctly the third was some kind of enfeeble but on targeted model only, like taking 40% more damage.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Mon 25 Mar, 2019 8:16 pm

Oddnerd wrote:The only thing about CS that is a problem is the fact that certain offensive commanders, particularly FC, make him their bitch in T1.

Is a targeted stun or suppression that lasts long enough to make a difference in that particular MU going to be fair in any other context? I feel like a crippling talon style weapon would be the only solution, but that would also be a buff to a hero who is already in every other regard extremely potent. In theory it would punish people who invest too heavily in their commander while being unimpressive against multiple model squads.


So then what excatly allows the FC/CL/other heavyweight hero to domanite him, if we can figure that out it should help point to the solution.

As for accidentally over buffing the CS that’s why maybe I think we should also slightly change some stats maybe to that way he’s more on par IMO

For example you look at chaos overall in T1 the only units with access to power melee in T1 are chaos hero’s

The CL has it on all his weapons (maybe not the flamer I think)

The PC has it on the sword

Sorc has to buy his flame sword

Maybe just give the sorc power melee base starting default?

Could help him but maybe not break him for early game.

I think a target stun similar to crippling talon on a item would be a fine addition or a spell similar to the Inquisitors target stun would help. Putting it on a pistol or god help (maybe have him 1 hand a bolter or plasma pistol) would help not break him if it doesn’t give him power melee from the weapon.

Still think he should have a T3 weapon that has a higher power DPS compared to his other options with some kinda durability increase.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SarDauk » Mon 25 Mar, 2019 8:22 pm

chaos sorcerer is not supposed to be a melee beast tho, it's a support like the farseer which mean he should have better abilities but less damage and tankiness than the heroes dedicated to it
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Mon 25 Mar, 2019 8:45 pm

SarDauk wrote:chaos sorcerer is not supposed to be a melee beast tho, it's a support like the farseer which mean he should have better abilities but less damage and tankiness than the heroes dedicated to it



You say that but the farseer has access to a heavy melee weapon, and far potent combat power with levitate and such. Not to mention abilities that can self buff herself to be much more durable and sustain herself in a fight.

The CS has no heavy melee, or durability self buffing spells beside the giant bubble or the fire aura from the flame sword which only just adds some flame dps and no real durability.

CS could use something like a stronger melee weapon for late game against all the heavy stuff running around .

Maybe even the doomblast spell similar to the one in Last stand.

Also he doesn’t have a single armor that buffs his health or engery regen.

I just would like more build variety for late game that’s not just “hey use subjugation”

I mean look at the other hero’s and you can turn them into tons of different build styles

The SM TM can become a melee build is a example. Or the melee kommando nob, heck look at the melee build Warp spider, and have you seen a Apoc with chainsword and wargear? That hero is a beast. There’s no rule against support hero’s be able to melee

Edit: sorry to seem like I’m spamming or angry I just actually want this thread to go somewhere and not just drift into the sunset with no discussion or solution
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Mon 25 Mar, 2019 9:02 pm

SOLID SQUIG wrote:The CS has no heavy melee, or durability self buffing spells beside the giant bubble or the fire aura from the flame sword which only just adds some flame dps and no real durability.

CS could use something like a stronger melee weapon for late game against all the heavy stuff running around .

Maybe even the doomblast spell similar to the one in Last stand.


1-) CS does not need any of those kind of weapons. He is already killy enough by it self.

Also he doesn’t have a single armor that buffs his health or engery regen.


2-) Deamon armor increases energy by 20 and increases energy regen by 1.5. Which is basicially a GOD MODE if you keep spamming your Doombolts, Warp Fire, Subj, etc.

I just would like more build variety for late game that’s not just “hey use subjugation”


3-) You don't want variety, you just want to kill things in melee in one shot or something like that.

The problem is, that is not the point of Sorcerer. He is not for killing things by bare hands, he is there for crowd control, misdirection, tricks, etc. This is his concept for last 8 fucking years, and no one besides you complained about that. I would prefer having the power of stopping an entire army to set up a trap (chains of torment) insted of a stupid heavy melee weapon.

---------------

Speaking of topic it self, I would like to see a target-slow-down weapon in T1.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Mon 25 Mar, 2019 9:14 pm

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:
1-) CS does not need any of those kind of weapons. He is already killy enough by it self.

Also he doesn’t have a single armor that buffs his health or engery regen.


2-) Deamon armor increases energy by 20 and increases energy regen by 1.5. Which is basicially a GOD MODE if you keep spamming your Doombolts, Warp Fire, Subj, etc.

I just would like more build variety for late game that’s not just “hey use subjugation”


3-) You don't want variety, you just want to kill things in melee in one shot or something like that.

The problem is, that is not the point of Sorcerer. He is not for killing things by bare hands, he is there for crowd control, misdirection, tricks, etc. This is his concept for last 8 fucking years, and no one besides you complained about that. I would prefer having the power of stopping an entire army to set up a trap (chains of torment) insted of a stupid heavy melee weapon.

---------------

Speaking of topic it self, I would like to see a target-slow-down weapon in T1.


Okay I see your points on the armor and spamming doombolts and spells, I’m not complaining I just want to see options. And yes I’m sorry I forgot it does give engery and regen to engery.

But durability is still aweful, just look at the inquisitior another spell casting hero that relies on abilities and CC she can get a engery shield and a invul.
Also she has a cloak.


I’m not looking to break him or make him OP and 1 shot stuff

I just want a later game weapon that can actually be useful to his play style that won’t break him, and isn’t just there to “fill a slot”

The T1 weapon idea we can agree on. And still has some more use later in the match for sure also.

So I think that’s the right direction
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Element » Mon 25 Mar, 2019 11:39 pm

The sorcerer doesn't need a heavy PvP weapon. The sorcerer already has great augmentation abilities when it comes to supporting units so that they can easily wreck vehicles/heavily armored infantry/troll super heavy units. One could honestly say even the farseer's singing spear should be considered to be changed to some kind of power pvp weapon type though even I recognize heavy weapon pvp is what naturally associates with having a singing spear. Some people are suggesting a weapon that slows which may be ok. But my thoughts would be more towards weapon skill/damge output debuffs > allowing for a greater likelihood to pull off specials/Increased performance for units entering into melee/with benefits for units in ranged skirmishes as well.. The whole matter being it stays somewhat in theme with sorcerer looking to weaken adversarial units from attaining their truest potential/deception> using them for the sorcerer's own personal gain (Sacrifice for greater access to vast amounts of arcane knowledge.)> Giving the sorcerer a Pistol/Plasma pistol where (Some kind of incantation is recored could possibly do well.)
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Tue 26 Mar, 2019 12:55 am

Element wrote:The sorcerer doesn't need a heavy PvP weapon. The sorcerer already has great augmentation abilities when it comes to supporting units so that they can easily wreck vehicles/heavily armored infantry/troll super heavy units. One could honestly say even the farseer's singing spear should be considered to be changed to some kind of power pvp weapon type though even I recognize heavy weapon pvp is what naturally associates with having a singing spear. Some people are suggesting a weapon that slows which may be ok. But my thoughts would be more towards weapon skill/damge output debuffs > allowing for a greater likelihood to pull off specials/Increased performance for units entering into melee/with benefits for units in ranged skirmishes as well.. The whole matter being it stays somewhat in theme with sorcerer looking to weaken adversarial units from attaining their truest potential/deception> using them for the sorcerer's own personal gain (Sacrifice for greater access to vast amounts of arcane knowledge.)> Giving the sorcerer a Pistol/Plasma pistol where (Some kind of incantation is recored could possibly do well.)


So are you saying a support buff type ability? Cause I can get behind that.

So the it seems the pistol/ranged weapon with a cc is the most accepted at this point.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Element » Tue 26 Mar, 2019 6:50 am

So are you saying a support buff type ability? Cause I can get behind that.

So the it seems the pistol/ranged weapon with a cc is the most accepted at this point.


-More like a Support De-buff ability, Perhaps like a slight slow in movement speed %-30- 40% + a 30% damage reduction for that particular squad. when the Sorcerer buys the, I mean I wouldn't mind giving him a plasma pistol, but that may make the sorcerer to good when it comes to running down units, with the bolt/plasma pistol upgrade that would be implemented into the game as an additional weapon choice option. probably for T1, but my a nother sense tells me that, T2 would proably be best, given that kind of reduction would seriously shift metas, if all of a sudden A.S.M. are doing 30% less damage in engagements for those who use them in this match- up in T1.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby ShowMeMagik » Tue 26 Mar, 2019 9:01 pm

This maybe controversial and I dont play that much these days but what is the weakness that the CS that needs a buff?

This thread seems to be approaching it from we could have another weapon, that would be cool so let's come up with a reason to do it.

If we can identify the gap the CS has it makes it easier to find a weapon/ability to fit.
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby SOLID SQUIG » Tue 26 Mar, 2019 10:15 pm

ShowMeMagik wrote:This maybe controversial and I dont play that much these days but what is the weakness that the CS that needs a buff?

This thread seems to be approaching it from we could have another weapon, that would be cool so let's come up with a reason to do it.

If we can identify the gap the CS has it makes it easier to find a weapon/ability to fit.



I think he needs a late game weapon other people are for giving him a T1 weapon
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Broodwich » Wed 27 Mar, 2019 5:54 am

uhhh, ever heard of subjugation?
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Telos » Wed 27 Mar, 2019 9:54 am

Broodwich wrote:uhhh, ever heard of subjugation?


Quite possibly the strongest ability in the game... But let's give him more control abilities. Lol
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Re: (Suggestion) Maybe a third weapon for chaos sorcerer

Postby Torpid » Wed 27 Mar, 2019 2:04 pm

@OP

Are you seeing why over the years we never bothered adding a new weapon for him now...?
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!

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