Important balance stuff

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Tex
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Important balance stuff

Postby Tex » Wed 25 Dec, 2013 7:58 pm

It should be pretty clear by now that some things just reek of over-performance. These will be the things I list first.
After I am done listing said things, I will give my take on how I think some changes could be made (in regards to said over-performing things) to promote diversity or fairness without making said "thing" completely useless. Later on, I will convert this list and add the many other minor things that could use some smaller less important tweaks.

#1) Flesh Hook.

#2) Feeder Tendrils.

#3) Channeling runes ---> banshees

#4) Internal balance of Chaos: Chaos Lord is superior to Sorc or Plague Champ

#5) Vindicare Assassin.

#6) Endless swarm and gaunt/gant T2-T3 exclusivity for hp increase being removed and upgrade costs.

#7) Focused warp blast cooldown.

#8) Banewolf call-in.

#9) Excrutiators.

#10) Spotters vs Catachans.

Ok, this is the primary list. Now I will elaborate on these things.

In regards to Flesh Hook:

This abillity has huge range, does model sniping damage (it has to be at least 150 because it kills a ranger in 1 shot) and worst of all, the distance of its pull is outrageous.
I feel like the obvious solution here is 2 fold. First, I feel like reducing the pull to a very minimal distance is a must have, and that second, the energy cost of fleshhook should be somewhere in the 60 range.
The reason I feel the energy cost of flesh hook should be higher as well is because it will indirectly give the LA's adrenal gland armor a reason to exist outside of using pheromones.
As an off-shoot of this, I would also change the price of the LA's adrenal gland armor to 100-20 down from 100-25.

In regards to Feeder Tendrils:

This wargear over-performs in every category you could put it into.
First problem I have is that it is power_melee, making it inherently better against the races that it already kicks so much ass against, namely SM, CSM, and GK. THERE IS NO REASON FOR THIS WARGEAR TO BE POWER_MELEE!!!
Second problem I have with this wargear is its price. There is absolutely no reason for this wargear to be cheaper that the other variants when it has 0 drawbacks and a superior damage type.
So basically, here are the options that I deem to be reasonable in response to this ridiculousness...
Option 1 would be to move feeder tendrils to T2 and increase its price to 120-30. This change would alleviate a huge portion of the stress that an LA can put on armies in t1 due to his "countering his counters" nature being interrupted.
Option 2 would be to increase the cost of feeder tendrils to 135-25, and change their damage type to sword_pvp or w/e it is.
I feel like either of these changes would also need to be paired with an adjustment to LA T1 wargear pricing like changing adrenal glands to 100-20 and also making toxin sacs 125-20.

In regards to Channeling runes:

This wargear is pretty awesome on ranged squads and stuff, very cool to see guardians hold up against heretics or w/e in melee, stuff like that. But when it comes time for banshees and this wargear, its just outlandishly stupid. It takes pure luck to kill even 1 of those banshee models and it takes very poor execution for the warlock player to not win a T1 engagement with this combination. My latest game against Toilalee is fantastic evidence to support this claim.
Ideally I would love if an exclusive modifier for banshees could be introduced that interacts with this wargear. It would be the most precise fix for the problem as we could limit the amount that banshees are healed to an acceptable level (which is only a bit lower than what it is right now).
If a modifier cannot be introduced, I think that the best way to keep this wargear in the realm of the reasonable would be to lower its range and duration slightly, but to compensate, then make the warlock weapon_knockback immune while channeling.

In regards to Internal balance of Chaos:

There are some key factors in this claim and no doubt, there will be some extreme disagreement on this one. Regardless, the stats are steadily pouring in and you can see for yourself.
Now, before I go on to make this into a giant essay (which this point alone could easily be made into) I will relate that this point on my balance list came from a very candid evening of gaming and conversation that I had with Noisy Elmo. Him and I are both prolific sorc players, and we both have very similar beliefs in that the chaos sorcerer has an extremely high skill ceiling; and that even when played at a 90% efficiency, the Chaos Lord is still better. We also feel that the Plague Champion, even when played at 95% efficiency, is still not as good as the Chaos Lord.
What are the key factors?
To be honest, there are too many. But here are some major things to consider:
-Ease of use. Its not just the chaos lord, its his worship and his globals too.
-T1 Pressure. Cannot be suppressed, very hard to knockback, has a built in melee counter, very killy with his gun (and has full range).
-Khorne worship. Yes, it does relate to ease of use a bit. But it also relates to utility. It is by far the most useful worship for retreat killing, vehicle support, tank chasing, etc!
-Chaos Lord globals. They are on par with the Sorc's, but the PC lags behind simply because plague of undeath is... crap.
-Wargear. All three chaos heroes struggle against vehicles, so it isn't like an inherent AV potential advantage lies with the sorc of PC. And please, before you say the plague fist is AV, think about what you are saying. The Chaos lord has superior wargear options compared to the other commanders and a lot of this lies in the strength of his economy (due to his insane ability to pressure and bleed) which enables him to invest more freely. Consider that the combi-flamer is a super sniping hand-held that comes with a mild anti-blob and anti-garrison. Sorc and PC can only attain 1 of those attributes per-wargear. LTGB is basically better than dark flames or noxious cloud and it comes on a 150-30 (almost) no-brainer wargear. Blood Maul comes with crazy crowd control which stuns, meaning it is by definition better than the CC options that sorc (chains of torment is very easily countered in non isolated engagements) and pc have, especially once elite infantry are on the scene. The only gear that wins points for the sorc when stacked against the CL is the tome of subjugation, vestements of the warp, and warp rift. The PC has only 1 wargear that would be considered better than CL gear and that is the bile spewer.
-Shrines. The Chaos Lord and Plague Champ both have great shrines, (I consider the CL one to be the best still because +10% damage for chaos units is definitely significant) but the Chaos Sorcerer shrine is just so much worse.

Now... What to do about this???

That is a super hard question obviously. But I think adjusting just a few things would go a long way in improving the internal balance.
-Make nurgle worship more useful. It doesn't affect vehicles and it doesn't have a second perk for demons. I find this to be completely unacceptable. There are any number of options here that have been listed in many different threads, and picking one of them is the best course of action.
-Make tzeentch shrines have a different effect other than -10% damage received or adjust the doom bolts that it shoots. The Sorc has problems with elite melee units and vehicles, thus, I would either have the tzeentch shrine aura changed to a weapon_knockback immune aura with no damage reduction OR make the doombolts snare vehicles that hit their AOE.
-Combi-flamer utility needs to be reduced. This weapon simply trumps anything the Sorc of PC can do in T1.
-Grant the Sorcerer and Plague Champion some much needed situational solutions by buffing the plague sword with a reduced cost, and buffing the icon of tzeentch with a better effect.

In regards to the Vindicare Assassin:

This guy really puts the cherry on the cake for a GK race that got a lot of well deserved buffs. But the problem is that he does quite a bit too much for the minimal cost that he comes out of the gate at. As stated previously in other threads, he completely negates light vehicle play against GK, and previously, this was GK's greatest weakness next to countering tanks.
For the first in a series of adjustments to the VA, I would highly recommend that he comes with an increased base cost, such that he costs at least 45 power to start building.

In regards to endless swarm:

This is pretty black and white here. The cheap reinforcing paired with increased performance per tier is actually ending up to be quite impossible to deal with. Pheromones or a broodnest and you have, relatively speaking, a no-win situation. Somethings gotta give.
I would recommend a slight reduction in the scaling of gaunts/gants.
Also, on the topic of gaunts/gants, I find it abhorrent that the toxin sacs upgrade only costs 50-15, and yet the adrenal gland for hormagants costs 75-15. Not only should these prices be switched, but I also feel that toxin sacs has always been an upgrade worthy of 20 power, even if it needs to come with a slight range buff to the ability.

In regards to the "focused warp blast" ability cooldown:

Again, this is a completely black and white issue. It comes off cooldown immediately after the snare is done. This ability also has massive range and can be used to snipe commanders even worse than kinetic shot because it doesn't do friendly fire, AND it does a nice chunk of damage.
Flat out, this ability needs a longer cooldown for sure.

In regards to the Banewolf call-in:

The recent reduction in red cost was surely to promote the use of a unit that wasn't seen in a while. But what actually has been done here has brought back to light the fact that this light tank is a beast and shouldn't be so much easier to get than warpspiders or kommandos. 150 red is just too accessible. If 200 is too high, then let us try 175. The only other fix I can see that is fair would be to make it a bit more expensive so that it truly becomes a tech stalling unit that you sacrifice to get a hold of.

In regards to Excrutiators:

This is a black and white issue. The wargear only costs 140-20 and it is the ultimate combo tool. Big range, long snare, and now its not even channeling. This wargear needs to be reverted back to channeling without a doubt. It simply isn't fair for the Inq to eliminate your most valuable squad at the very beginning of every T2.5 engagement by comboing excruiators and manti (or w/e), especially while she is already off causing trouble somewhere else instead of channeling and being vulnerable.

In regards to spotters vs catachans:

Ok so I had a very productive brainstorming session with Torpid about this one. Basically, the problem here is that catachans are a utility unit, and so are spotters. Spotters just happen to be way more effective and push chans into a spot where they are a 60 power unit that doesn't get much done.
Long story short, here is the solution we came up with:
Catachans are adapted to make them more combat capable, but a little less utility.
Changes are as such:
-catachans lose 1 member, hp and damage is spread over the rest
-ol' reliable damage is slightly nerfed on vanilla catachan squad
-demo man buffs ol' reliable damage to a value slightly higher than what it is currently
-IED energy cost increased to 80, cooldown 60 seconds
-T2 Sargeant increases catachan squad shotgun and melta range by 4 (or could give them fotm, or could give them slightly increased ranged damage)

Please keep commentary organized so I can update stuff effectively.
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xerrol nanoha
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby xerrol nanoha » Wed 25 Dec, 2013 8:11 pm

It's sad when we think of things as overperforming, when I wish we could afford for that to be a simple standard and that all other things simply underperform. But alas, it doesn't work that way does it?
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Bahamut » Wed 25 Dec, 2013 8:15 pm

Tex wrote:Also, on the topic of gaunts/gants, I find it abhorrent that the toxin sacs upgrade only costs 50-15, and yet the adrenal gland for hormagants costs 75-15. Not only should these prices be switched, but I also feel that toxin sacs has always been an upgrade worthy of 20 power, even if it needs to come with a slight range buff to the ability.


You need to take into consideration that termagaunts start with a crappy 28 dps per squad, and it's only with toxic sac they go up to 40 dps per squad, where as sluggas start at 35dps per squad and dire avengers start at 43 dps.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby FiSH » Wed 25 Dec, 2013 8:28 pm

definitely agree on the focused warp blast cooldown increase. that was all i was thinking when watching a recent replay of you (LA) vs rataxas (TM), where you went 3 warriors into 2 zoans and killed a lot of dreadnoughts.

replay link here from indrid's channel:
http://youtu.be/U5R-jEGvTV0
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Kvek » Wed 25 Dec, 2013 8:48 pm

I thought you would include Bio Plasma here too, since it's the most useless wargear, even though if you are a lucky nub you can wipe a hormagaunt model with it in retreat :L
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 25 Dec, 2013 9:07 pm

xerrol nanoha wrote:It's sad when we think of things as overperforming, when I wish we could afford for that to be a simple standard and that all other things simply underperform. But alas, it doesn't work that way does it?


Yes, a unit does 1000 dps and everyone else does 10, let's escalate everyone to 1000 dps, great logic right there.

Aside this, I just agree with everything tex said, though RA also needs to be looked at,atm it's just overshadowed by the fact that nobody mains him and that LA is just easy mode, namely acid splatter, regeneration,speed accessory/damage synapse.

There's also a couple of things quite broken with orks, such as Mek's second global (dakk dakka dakka or something), his shield and a couple of other things with the mek Knob, like his knife, the ability it has basically makes it like a LA when countering setup teams.

And well, then there's the TM which has quite some op things like mark target.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Commissar Vocaloid » Wed 25 Dec, 2013 10:27 pm

Tex wrote:In regards to Excrutiators:

This is a black and white issue. The wargear only costs 140-20 and it is the ultimate combo tool. Big range, long snare, and now its not even channeling. This wargear needs to be reverted back to channeling without a doubt. It simply isn't fair for the Inq to eliminate your most valuable squad at the very beginning of every T2.5 engagement by comboing excruiators and manti (or w/e), especially while she is already off causing trouble somewhere else instead of channeling and being vulnerable.

In regards to spotters vs catachans:

Ok so I had a very productive brainstorming session with Torpid about this one. Basically, the problem here is that catachans are a utility unit, and so are spotters. Spotters just happen to be way more effective and push chans into a spot where they are a 60 power unit that doesn't get much done.
Long story short, here is the solution we came up with:
Catachans are adapted to make them more combat capable, but a little less utility.
Changes are as such:
-catachans lose 1 member, hp and damage is spread over the rest
-ol' reliable damage is slightly nerfed on vanilla catachan squad
-demo man buffs ol' reliable damage to a value slightly higher than what it is currently
-IED energy cost increased to 80, cooldown 60 seconds
-T2 Sargeant increases catachan squad shotgun and melta range by 4 (or could give them fotm, or could give them slightly increased ranged damage)

Please keep commentary organized so I can update stuff effectively.



Excrutiators don't require channeling anymore??? I had no idea but that's pretty damn good now. I never used it because a lot of the time, I needed the Inquis to tie something up in melee so I couldn't afford to use excrutiators in my build and relied on microing my units to kite as well as other forms of control/supression for engaging units. I'll have to test them out now, but alternatively, to encourage the change for non-channeling but perhaps keeping it in fairness, perhaps it could be something like a reduced time for being constricted? Or perhaps keep it channeled for as long as it takes, but if the inquisitor moves, the binding continues for several seconds (say 4 seconds)?

As for catachans, I'm not sure what I can suggest. I agree that they are pretty crummy when compared to spotters for their utility, and I would definitely not invest in them because of their power cost and their general lackluster combat performance past t1, but I think they'd need more than increased range or whatever else, have you. The extra damage might be nice, but I feel as if they should get a more significant upgrade in melee more so than anything else. A sergeant perhaps would give the catachans some melee skill (so they can perform specials on units) which would give IG an actual feasible unit that will be able to counter initiate much better against say jump units like ASM. Because aside from having your commander, the only other option is Ogryn and they bleed you like no tomorrow. Now, you might argue that that's what the shotgun blast is for and I agree that it's there for the exact same purpose, but it isn't a reliable source of anti-melee as it's an ability and isn't exactly ideal. But to be honest, I really can't think of anything else. I just don't like cata's - I don't see where they fit in the IG army in the current state of the game; they fit a very tight niche.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Forestradio » Wed 25 Dec, 2013 11:09 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:And well, then there's the TM which has quite some op things like mark target.


I second this.

I've seen mark target with a plasma cannon shot wipe a full health tactical marine squad with sergeant. Granted, that's not going to happen very often, but still.

Signum+plasma gun+mark target= dead HI/SHI models all the time. You can even force stuff like the GUO and Avatar to back up based on sheer damage.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Wed 25 Dec, 2013 11:38 pm

in regards to the bane wolf, i think the damage type should be changed to something like inferno_pvp and probably the snare removed. right now the tank is fast, counter infantry very, counters melee (IG already have a lot of melee counters) and burns gens. changing the damage type would make it a lot harder to burn gens and the thing uses a chemical spray anyway.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Torpid » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 2:57 am

Radio the Forest wrote:
Ace of Swords wrote:And well, then there's the TM which has quite some op things like mark target.


I second this.

I've seen mark target with a plasma cannon shot wipe a full health tactical marine squad with sergeant. Granted, that's not going to happen very often, but still.

Signum+plasma gun+mark target= dead HI/SHI models all the time. You can even force stuff like the GUO and Avatar to back up based on sheer damage.


Add a smite to that too so it hits just before the Pdev shot. You can wipe level 4 TCSM in an instant. Mark target is way too strong.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby ThongSong » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 3:01 am

The Ravener Alpha's t1 40something power melee weapon that does splash damage.

that rape train has no brakes
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Vapor » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 3:35 am

What do people suggest for mark target and doom? Reduce the effect to 30-35% or something?
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Ace of Swords » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 3:56 am

fv100 wrote:What do people suggest for mark target and doom? Reduce the effect to 30-35% or something?


yes.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Sub_Zero » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 5:13 am

LTGB is basically better than dark flames or noxious cloud and it comes on a 150-30 (almost) no-brainer wargear.

I really don't know why this armor cost such a pathetic amount of resources. It should cost at least 200 / 50 because it allows you to own armies and as said here better than most globals. Even with less fireballs it is still nuts if you think about it.

which would give IG an actual feasible unit that will be able to counter initiate much better against say jump units like ASM

Not forcing melee against ASM? Try it. You will find them retreating very very soon.

What do people suggest for mark target and doom? Reduce the effect to 30-35% or something?

Doom is a t1 ability. Mark target is a t2 ability. Doom could use huge nerfs, mark target could use slight nerfs. You know it is kinda uncounterable when gaydar hide from you behind shuriken platforms, you jump on them, they debuff your jump squad and banshees kill it in 5 seconds. Space marines have no access to such a cheap tactic. These 2 abilities are extremely powerful melee counters. You can manage to avoid damage if your ranged squads get debuffed but your melee units and jump units have nothing to do but retreat. Unless you use some specific tools to help them such as gates of infinity (teleport back your squad), extra disruption (there are tons of examples for it)
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Tex » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 5:34 am

Keep in mind I have only posted the majorly over performing items right now. I have not lost sight of the things that underperform.

What is the exact effect of doom? All I know for the moment is that the weapon itself does standard levels of sword_pvp (or w/e), slightly increases ranged damage (not sure about this though???) and the ability increases damage taken by the target by at least 30%. This weapon rests somewhere near the top of the 25 power (cost) weapon category.

What is the exact effect of mark target? All I know is that signum armor increases health by 50, weapon range by 5, passive ranged damage by 10%(not sure???), and the ability does something like increase damage taken by 50%?

Please fill me in on these things.

Also, do please feel free to re-read the list and keep commentary largely focused on it instead of wild combinations that seem OP which almost never happen :D.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby HandSome SoddiNg » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 5:36 am

IS There Valid Reasons why i don't see UYC/Warp Vomit & Warpath in THE List ?

UYC for 75 red is Making an awful joke for FTE/MB . Warp vomit the Duration is still LONG ,Shutting down Infantries with a flick of a Hotkey ,rendering them unable to Escape like Terminators , that Debuff by Vomit makes Terminator significantly weaken & Vulnerable for UYC Sluggaz/Nobz & Frenzy in Conjunction w Warpath could Potentially wipe the Termies even if they teleported further ahead ,no doubt Over dere/Warpath would catch em. Maybe reduce the radius of Vomit to a Squad-affected and shorten its duration span . UYC, Buff the Red increase to 100 & shorten its CD to 45-50 seconds?

Still , Weirdboy's abilities some of which are still effectively powerful for such little energy usage, his Regeneration of Warrrgh is Fine.
Last edited by HandSome SoddiNg on Thu 26 Dec, 2013 6:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Vapor » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 5:41 am

Tex wrote:
What is the exact effect of doom? All I know for the moment is that the weapon itself does standard levels of sword_pvp (or w/e), slightly increases ranged damage (not sure about this though???) and the ability increases damage taken by the target by at least 30%. This weapon rests somewhere near the top of the 25 power (cost) weapon category.


Doombringer costs 115/25. It increases her melee dps from 35 to 58 and gives her a slightly better ranged attack. The ability increases dmg taken by 40%. I think the ability could stand to be reduced to 30% and/or the wargear could get a power cost increase to 30.

Honestly I don't buy the wargear much in t1, the farseer is too energy intensive to be using guide + doom every engagement. I buy it a lot in t2 though.

And yes mark target is 50%.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Sub_Zero » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 5:51 am

I agree. The warboss's globals are too spammable (orks produce red just like that) and cannot be countered (once if you are in a melee fight you can only retreat from orks buffed with these 2 buffs). And if 'ard boyz is somehow ok for 75 red the other one global is definetely not.
Warp Vomit is yet another uncounterable and ridiculous thing. You can't really avoid it since you don't even know what place will be affected by this vomit. And it stuns for a really stupid amount of time. Even 2-3 seconds of stun would be enough to allow orks' melee units with insane damage to kill your melee units. I always like to remember you about nerfed damage of smite. These 2 abilities are simillar. You can't avoid them unless you are very lucky.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby HandSome SoddiNg » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 6:07 am

Sub_Zero wrote:I agree. The warboss's globals are too spammable (orks produce
Warp Vomit is yet another uncounterable and ridiculous thing. You can't really avoid it since you don't even know what place will be affected by this vomit. And it stuns for a really stupid amount of time. Even 2-3 seconds of stun would be enough to allow orks' melee units with insane damage to kill your melee units. you are very lucky.


Indeed, Once your Jump units/Terminator variants are Affected in the Radius, Tha'ts when the Ork player will pump out all his Buffs & Put the Hurt on you. Especially BBH + UYC on Sluggaz/Stormies/Nobz & Vomit maybe Cyborg implants to stun the Terminators after Vomit has worn out and Warpath will boost the Speed of the Meele units
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby ThongSong » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 7:05 am

I've had Handsome wipe a 4man strong ASM squad in retreat with banshees that were fleet of footed, buffed with whatever the hell they are buffed with, and had my asms doomed.

They were literally doomed. and that retreat path wasn't even that long
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 8:06 am

i think doom could be reduced to 30%. i don't feel that it over preforms right now but i don't buy it much as i tend to prefer other wargear. 30% would bring it inline with guide and fortune.

mark target i'm not familar with.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Lulgrim » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 8:54 am

I feel in general such buffs probably shouldn't exceed 30% at all, ever. Just 20% might be reasonable for some.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 10:14 am

More or less I agree with all that Tex said, but..

- Chaos Lord default weapons are shitty. The power sword do less damage against all units, including the HI and SHI units than the FC default chainsword, for example. The combi bolter do only 1.5 dps more than the FC default boltpistol, for example. Still I saw both weapons balanced if we have in mind the CL's Suppression/Weapon knockback inmmunity/tankyness/slowness.

- The Combi-flamer could receive a req increase cost. It could be deadly at range with this weapon, but with the cooldown increase of Kill the Weak! is now easiest to force (at least with some races) the Kill the Weak! and then shread him in melee. Still exists the danger of using the Combi-flamer ability on his feet to evade melee combat with low hp high model count squads, but then you can shoot him at range and wait until the ability is off/canceled.

- Blood Maul is fine. It's as expensive as PC Powerfist, FC Powerfist, BC T2 weapons... but in contrast to those weapons, only do melee_damage. So except against Infantry or HI, it have reduced DPS against the rest of armour types (only do 70 dps against Commander or SHI armour). The ability is which makes Blood Maul really useful against T2 and T3 units.

- We suggested tons of possible solutions for Plague of Undeath on this thread.

- Let the Galaxy burn! is OP and UP (well, maybe not exactly UP :lol: ), because their fireball land location randomness. If 2 or more fireball land where you wanted, you have triumphed. And more against low hp high model count squads. Still IMHO it would receive some nerfs, like reduce their initial damage per fireball.

- Plague Grenades works also well as anti-blob (with some suppresion assistance) and anti-garrison, for example. Plague Powerfists is awesome giving 90% ranged damage resistance, and stun which affects Terminators and at the same time still does good damage. The Pestilence armour Aura of Decay knockbacks, and it's usefull against Nobz/Seer Council. The Plague Sword it's a 50 power_melee dps in T1 even if the enemy squad have melee resistance.

In fact, IMHO some of the Chaos Sorcerer wargear scales not very good in highest Tiers.

- Plague Champion needs a ranged build IMHO, and Chaos Sorcerer a new weapon.

- Agree with your Nurgle Workshipp opinion, but not sure about the Tzeentch Shrine one. Doombolts could make a little snare in their DOT area.

EDIT: And what about KCSM in the ELITE meta? Are they fine?
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appiah4
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby appiah4 » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 11:04 am

ThongSong wrote:The Ravener Alpha's t1 40something power melee weapon that does splash damage.

that rape train has no brakes


I have absolutely no idea how Tex missed this...
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Kvek » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 11:28 am

appiah4 wrote:
ThongSong wrote:The Ravener Alpha's t1 40something power melee weapon that does splash damage.

that rape train has no brakes


I have absolutely no idea how Tex missed this...


It's t2 and it's countered by focus firing the RA. (not saying it's not op :p)
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Sub_Zero » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 11:45 am

I rarely encounter that weapon. But it seems really strong. Not sure if OP
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby ChrisNihilus » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 12:54 pm

Lost Son of Nikhel wrote:- Plague Champion needs a ranged build IMHO, and Chaos Sorcerer a new weapon.


I agree with this.
I'm a novice so my opinion about balance is worthless, but playing Plague Champion i feel it need some kind of ranged weapon as an upgrade.
He start as a ranged heroes but every upgrade reduce his range. It's frustrating.

Maybe add something like the Ectoplasma Cannon?
Something unique to make he stand up, he look like all the other marines.

I think even heavy weapon with deploy time will be great. A more "slow-pushing" style i think is in line with the Nurgle-themed Chaos.

As i said i have no word in balance, just my opinion to make the Plague Champion more unique and fun.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby appiah4 » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 1:22 pm

Autocannon with increased infantry damage and decreased AV damage a-la Nurgle Predator for the Plague Champion would be nice.

However, he already has the best ranged T1 weapon in the game for free anyway. While his other weapons don't really help with range, his free Plague Bolter doesn't quite lose its relevance throughout the game.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby Sub_Zero » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 2:47 pm

Of course a new gun would be a great addition into his arsenal but will it fit his role?

Just look at all his wargears, you will notice that almost all of them allow him to counter melee units. 1) Bile spewer allows him to control melee units and heroes by slowing them and snaring their movement with the ability. 2) Sword of undeath allows him to decimate heavy infantry squads and other jump units (ignores melee resistance) 3) Power fist allows him to decline effectivness of ALL jump units, your setup team will not be harmed at all. Grenades act as a great melee deterrent, mark of nurgle means that no melee unit will survive (especially with high model count) and his armors also give defensive bonuses. It can be used offensivily, no doubts, but primarily he is the best melee counter in the game. Use the standart bolter unless you have some melee units against you that give you troubles.

And that is the difference between the CL and him. The Chaos Lord is supposed to be used offensively (his wargears allow him to tank damage, disrupt enemy lines, weapons do insanely high damage) and the Plague Champion is supposed to be used defensively.
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Re: Important balance stuff

Postby ChrisNihilus » Thu 26 Dec, 2013 3:31 pm

Well, the Heavy Bolter is a defensive weapon that counter melee with suppression.

Just saying. ^^
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