Improvements to Tyranids quality of life
Posted: Mon 25 Feb, 2019 11:15 am
Hey, I really like most of the changes to Tyranids in 2.9 but I wonder if they might have some tweaks to improve quality of life to some situations they're severely lacking in and their late game on some units. I'm focusing on individual weaknesses and peculiarities of units in the Nid roster that I feel have never really been addressed and not really addressing their strength as a whole (hard to know where that is in the current meta, but it's definitely improved).
I'm including all my ideas here for the sake of simplicity and I'm not necessarily advocating implementing all of them, so I'm just numbering them here with my proposed idea. But if it's better to divide them into individual threads I'd be happy to do so. Also, if I'm misunderstanding the purpose of some units or their abilities I'd be happy to be corrected.
Here is what I was thinking:
1. Garrisons and Turrets
This becomes less of a problem after T2 when nids can get out units like Zoanthropes and... more Zoanthropes. But in T1 they're completely shut down by units going into a garrison or turret spam. The nid player can get strangler warriors but it's not ideal in many situations and they don't actually help against turrets. Spore mines help with garrisons somewhat if used really well. Like REALLY WELL. But a lot of abilities that knock them back or setup teams completely disintegrate them before they can often get off more than one blast in range. That's assuming if you have the high level micro-skills necessary to constantly switch back to them and manually detonate them while also managing your terms, gaunts, and hero.
Possible Solution: Why not restore their suppression (or giving it a knockback if it's meant to make them unique from barbed stranglers) on explosion and remove their poison damage over time ability? Replace it with them creating a burn effect on the ground upon death. This gives good counterplay to the enemy, they can just kite away and kill them (as they do now) but gives the Spore mines more versatility since they can suppress melee squads and threaten them with the burn effect. And since they produce the effect upon death instead of detonation, they don't lose value against garrisons and turrets. They just need to get into range and will still serve their intended purpose by dying to enemy fire with the burn effect. They won't get their frontend damage from the detonation but they can still force units out of garrisons and kill turrets, forcing the enemy to adopt a more balanced strategy. The enemy can still use turrets and garrisons and force the nid player to invest in spore mines, but they'll have to think a lot more strategically about it than they do now at least.
This would probably need to be balanced so they don't deal too much damage to generators, and they'd probably also need to be made completely immune to fire damage so they don't kill themselves by detonating (I don't see much problem with this). I think this would add a lot of utility to spore mines and help Tyranids address two of their biggest shortcomings in T1 with a single unit. That is if it's possible to implement in the mod...
2. Venom Cannon Carnifex
The buffs to the venom cannon giving it a little splash are a big improvement. But the VC fex is still an extremely niche upgrade imo. You want and need it for T3 super units which nids tend to struggle against like baneblades, Land Raiders, Daemons, etc. Beyond that it's not terribly useful. Its bio plasma skillshot is pretty nice I guess? I mean it's better than nothing but it's kind of a poor man's Pdev, it does good damage against vehicles and ok damage against infantry but its best feature is good disruption with long-range knockback which nids severely lack late-game (more on that later), but it doesn't really justify getting the VCfex just for that...
The VC fex has no fire on the move, is slow and has kinda shit pathing (like most large units but its speed and the fact it's a walker kind of compounds this). Not to mention it's possibly the only T3 specialized AV that can be effectively disrupted by a guardsmen squad in melee. On top of this, if it can't outshoot other specialized AV like a las-predator, it's very unlikely to get away without a lot of luck.
Possible Solution: How about giving its bioplasma a stun? Nids currently don't have any unit that stuns. They have knockback, suppression, and slows, but are kind of lacking in CC options for units that ignore knockback/suppression (of which there are many in T3). It'd give the VC fex at least a chance to get away from a losing fight and maybe even grant it a bit of versatility for the nid army if the enemy shifts away from vehicles to infantry. Its cooldown/damage/range/projectile speed could be adjusted to balance it if need-be, but a ranged AoE stun isn't that unheard of for T3, especially for such a specialized unit with limited use outside of AV. Speaking of stuns though...
3. Tyranid Hero Utility
The Tyranid heroes have a lot of useful abilities but are severely lacking when it comes to having any sort of crowd control.
Possible Solution: Is it unreasonable to ask that they have some kind of wargear that gives a stun of some sort? They have slows/knockback/suppression abilities, but many late game abilities and units completely negate these. Assuming no other unit gets a stun (see VC fex suggestion above), it'd really help them deal with certain kinds of heavy infantry or heroes (looking at you Telehammer) that they tend to struggle against. Just putting this out there, but since nids don't have transports, retreat nodes and limited infield reinforcement options they tend to rely heavily on winning a fight to be viable and if they can't then they're usually completely off the field (or dead). A targeted stun would help them deal with certain individual threats and open more options for them. Most heroes have some form of stun and it doesn't seem unreasonable for them.
4. Zoanthrope
The new T3 zoan heal is a nice addition and gives Tyranids much needed infield repair for their monstrous units. But the ability not allowing it to retreat makes it a very risky prospect.
Possible Solution: Is there no way to make Zoanthrope able to retreat while casting it? I'm fine with that canceling the healing if it's possible. It already takes away the zoans shield, and I understand it's probably made this way to add risk to the zoan healing units that are in combat. But even if it's healing outside of combat, the number of units that can get into range quickly (either infiltrated, jumped in, or called in) means using it in the field is risky in the best of circumstances.
Also: And this is more of a nice to have but since the repair upgrade pretty much makes zoanthropes required in all matchups could we see them get a price reduction and maybe make focused warpblast a T2 upgrade (it could also include a damage reduction with the upgrade restoring its current damage levels). They're already the Tyranid healer, artillery, anti-turret, anti-garrison, anti-heavy infantry, anti-infantry unit. So why not make their Anti-vehicle ability more of a niche purchase than out-of-the-box and make them a bit easier to get out?
5. Neurothrope
First want to point out that Spirit Leech incorrectly states that the ability immobilizes the squad it targets. It only immobilizes the model it's targeting. Also the codex link incorrectly goes to: https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=e ... _malan'tai instead of the correct link: https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=elite/neurothrope
I like the Neurothrope, it fills in a lot of the gaps that the Tyranids have with dealing with super heavy infantry, crowd control, and monstrous units. And although I'd prefer some of this utility transferred to the Tyranid heroes (see Tyranid Hero Utility) I'm fine with it as is for the most part.
One thing that seems strange to me about it is its ability Absorb Life (Same as the Swarmlord ability). It already has an ability to restore energy (Leech Essence) and it already heals when it damages a unit (unless this was changed?) this ability would appear intended to threaten any enemy units that get too close to it. But really, any unit that gets with 25 radius of it and is actually a threat would make me more inclined to just retreat. Considering its utility and kit encourages you to keep it long range, the ability would seem more suited as a levitation field or some kind of cc on units in case they manage to close with it, since it has no shield and can die to a strong enough breeze. But another issue is that this makes it kind of unwieldly having four separate abilities on one unit to consider and manage.
Possible Solution: Honestly I'd much prefer just removing the ability and making the Neurothrope immune to knockback. Four abilities on a single unit is confusing and a lot to manage when you're also trying to micro a army (most of which also have abilities) and in T3 there are tons of units that can cause knockback (special attacks, leaps, AoE weapons). Zoanthropes have a light counter to this with their shield, it at least gives them a chance to retreat. But it's often a death sentence for the Neurothrope to be knocked down since it can suffer chain knockback and isn't that tanky of a single unit entity to begin with. Not to mention healing units in the field has already been given to the Zoanthrope so the ability to heal itself (combined with its passive heal on hit) seems a bit redundant. This would simplify it and give it much greater survivability imo.
6. Endless Swarm
This isn't that bad of an ability, so this is more of me just having wishful thinking. As T3 ults go it just feels kind of lackluster, even with two squads with full upgrades, it feels like they don't make that much of an impact because they have no levels. In fact it feels like they kind of have big drawbacks since you want every resource going towards your monstrous units, and red seems better placed in Tyrannoformation or Cap towers, plus the gaunts and terms drop models so quickly it feels like you're just feeding your opponent red not to mention it kind of tanks your eco. There are some niche situations where it's good to use, but it seems like a rare occasion...
Possible Solution: This may be crazy, but what about making the Hormagaunts and Termagants dropped unique? Call them Hivefleet Horms and Terms and make them about as strong as level 2 gaunts and terms, but they can't level. They have the standard upgrades but they're unique in that they don't cost any upkeep or pop. The cooldown of the ability could be increased to compensate, so they're basically like free units (you're still paying red/resources and same cost to reinforce), but since they're not as strong as gaunts or terms that may have made it that far in the game the nid player is dissuaded from just suiciding them for free ones. It'd feel like a really cool ability and give the sense of an "endless swarm" enveloping the planet. Or instead maybe just move the ability to T2 where the two squads dropped can make more of an impact? I think the former would be cooler, but the latter at least gives the ability more utility and options for the nid player.
Anyway, that's my thinking. Tyranids probably need more time in this patch to see where they stand in the meta but I don't think their lack of cc and large vulnerabilities of the units listed above has ever really been addressed so would like to hear thoughts on it. Or if I'm just wrong about these being issues wouldn't mind hearing the reasons for that as well.
I'm including all my ideas here for the sake of simplicity and I'm not necessarily advocating implementing all of them, so I'm just numbering them here with my proposed idea. But if it's better to divide them into individual threads I'd be happy to do so. Also, if I'm misunderstanding the purpose of some units or their abilities I'd be happy to be corrected.
Here is what I was thinking:
1. Garrisons and Turrets
This becomes less of a problem after T2 when nids can get out units like Zoanthropes and... more Zoanthropes. But in T1 they're completely shut down by units going into a garrison or turret spam. The nid player can get strangler warriors but it's not ideal in many situations and they don't actually help against turrets. Spore mines help with garrisons somewhat if used really well. Like REALLY WELL. But a lot of abilities that knock them back or setup teams completely disintegrate them before they can often get off more than one blast in range. That's assuming if you have the high level micro-skills necessary to constantly switch back to them and manually detonate them while also managing your terms, gaunts, and hero.
Possible Solution: Why not restore their suppression (or giving it a knockback if it's meant to make them unique from barbed stranglers) on explosion and remove their poison damage over time ability? Replace it with them creating a burn effect on the ground upon death. This gives good counterplay to the enemy, they can just kite away and kill them (as they do now) but gives the Spore mines more versatility since they can suppress melee squads and threaten them with the burn effect. And since they produce the effect upon death instead of detonation, they don't lose value against garrisons and turrets. They just need to get into range and will still serve their intended purpose by dying to enemy fire with the burn effect. They won't get their frontend damage from the detonation but they can still force units out of garrisons and kill turrets, forcing the enemy to adopt a more balanced strategy. The enemy can still use turrets and garrisons and force the nid player to invest in spore mines, but they'll have to think a lot more strategically about it than they do now at least.
This would probably need to be balanced so they don't deal too much damage to generators, and they'd probably also need to be made completely immune to fire damage so they don't kill themselves by detonating (I don't see much problem with this). I think this would add a lot of utility to spore mines and help Tyranids address two of their biggest shortcomings in T1 with a single unit. That is if it's possible to implement in the mod...
2. Venom Cannon Carnifex
The buffs to the venom cannon giving it a little splash are a big improvement. But the VC fex is still an extremely niche upgrade imo. You want and need it for T3 super units which nids tend to struggle against like baneblades, Land Raiders, Daemons, etc. Beyond that it's not terribly useful. Its bio plasma skillshot is pretty nice I guess? I mean it's better than nothing but it's kind of a poor man's Pdev, it does good damage against vehicles and ok damage against infantry but its best feature is good disruption with long-range knockback which nids severely lack late-game (more on that later), but it doesn't really justify getting the VCfex just for that...
The VC fex has no fire on the move, is slow and has kinda shit pathing (like most large units but its speed and the fact it's a walker kind of compounds this). Not to mention it's possibly the only T3 specialized AV that can be effectively disrupted by a guardsmen squad in melee. On top of this, if it can't outshoot other specialized AV like a las-predator, it's very unlikely to get away without a lot of luck.
Possible Solution: How about giving its bioplasma a stun? Nids currently don't have any unit that stuns. They have knockback, suppression, and slows, but are kind of lacking in CC options for units that ignore knockback/suppression (of which there are many in T3). It'd give the VC fex at least a chance to get away from a losing fight and maybe even grant it a bit of versatility for the nid army if the enemy shifts away from vehicles to infantry. Its cooldown/damage/range/projectile speed could be adjusted to balance it if need-be, but a ranged AoE stun isn't that unheard of for T3, especially for such a specialized unit with limited use outside of AV. Speaking of stuns though...
3. Tyranid Hero Utility
The Tyranid heroes have a lot of useful abilities but are severely lacking when it comes to having any sort of crowd control.
Possible Solution: Is it unreasonable to ask that they have some kind of wargear that gives a stun of some sort? They have slows/knockback/suppression abilities, but many late game abilities and units completely negate these. Assuming no other unit gets a stun (see VC fex suggestion above), it'd really help them deal with certain kinds of heavy infantry or heroes (looking at you Telehammer) that they tend to struggle against. Just putting this out there, but since nids don't have transports, retreat nodes and limited infield reinforcement options they tend to rely heavily on winning a fight to be viable and if they can't then they're usually completely off the field (or dead). A targeted stun would help them deal with certain individual threats and open more options for them. Most heroes have some form of stun and it doesn't seem unreasonable for them.
4. Zoanthrope
The new T3 zoan heal is a nice addition and gives Tyranids much needed infield repair for their monstrous units. But the ability not allowing it to retreat makes it a very risky prospect.
Possible Solution: Is there no way to make Zoanthrope able to retreat while casting it? I'm fine with that canceling the healing if it's possible. It already takes away the zoans shield, and I understand it's probably made this way to add risk to the zoan healing units that are in combat. But even if it's healing outside of combat, the number of units that can get into range quickly (either infiltrated, jumped in, or called in) means using it in the field is risky in the best of circumstances.
Also: And this is more of a nice to have but since the repair upgrade pretty much makes zoanthropes required in all matchups could we see them get a price reduction and maybe make focused warpblast a T2 upgrade (it could also include a damage reduction with the upgrade restoring its current damage levels). They're already the Tyranid healer, artillery, anti-turret, anti-garrison, anti-heavy infantry, anti-infantry unit. So why not make their Anti-vehicle ability more of a niche purchase than out-of-the-box and make them a bit easier to get out?
5. Neurothrope
First want to point out that Spirit Leech incorrectly states that the ability immobilizes the squad it targets. It only immobilizes the model it's targeting. Also the codex link incorrectly goes to: https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=e ... _malan'tai instead of the correct link: https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=elite/neurothrope
I like the Neurothrope, it fills in a lot of the gaps that the Tyranids have with dealing with super heavy infantry, crowd control, and monstrous units. And although I'd prefer some of this utility transferred to the Tyranid heroes (see Tyranid Hero Utility) I'm fine with it as is for the most part.
One thing that seems strange to me about it is its ability Absorb Life (Same as the Swarmlord ability). It already has an ability to restore energy (Leech Essence) and it already heals when it damages a unit (unless this was changed?) this ability would appear intended to threaten any enemy units that get too close to it. But really, any unit that gets with 25 radius of it and is actually a threat would make me more inclined to just retreat. Considering its utility and kit encourages you to keep it long range, the ability would seem more suited as a levitation field or some kind of cc on units in case they manage to close with it, since it has no shield and can die to a strong enough breeze. But another issue is that this makes it kind of unwieldly having four separate abilities on one unit to consider and manage.
Possible Solution: Honestly I'd much prefer just removing the ability and making the Neurothrope immune to knockback. Four abilities on a single unit is confusing and a lot to manage when you're also trying to micro a army (most of which also have abilities) and in T3 there are tons of units that can cause knockback (special attacks, leaps, AoE weapons). Zoanthropes have a light counter to this with their shield, it at least gives them a chance to retreat. But it's often a death sentence for the Neurothrope to be knocked down since it can suffer chain knockback and isn't that tanky of a single unit entity to begin with. Not to mention healing units in the field has already been given to the Zoanthrope so the ability to heal itself (combined with its passive heal on hit) seems a bit redundant. This would simplify it and give it much greater survivability imo.
6. Endless Swarm
This isn't that bad of an ability, so this is more of me just having wishful thinking. As T3 ults go it just feels kind of lackluster, even with two squads with full upgrades, it feels like they don't make that much of an impact because they have no levels. In fact it feels like they kind of have big drawbacks since you want every resource going towards your monstrous units, and red seems better placed in Tyrannoformation or Cap towers, plus the gaunts and terms drop models so quickly it feels like you're just feeding your opponent red not to mention it kind of tanks your eco. There are some niche situations where it's good to use, but it seems like a rare occasion...
Possible Solution: This may be crazy, but what about making the Hormagaunts and Termagants dropped unique? Call them Hivefleet Horms and Terms and make them about as strong as level 2 gaunts and terms, but they can't level. They have the standard upgrades but they're unique in that they don't cost any upkeep or pop. The cooldown of the ability could be increased to compensate, so they're basically like free units (you're still paying red/resources and same cost to reinforce), but since they're not as strong as gaunts or terms that may have made it that far in the game the nid player is dissuaded from just suiciding them for free ones. It'd feel like a really cool ability and give the sense of an "endless swarm" enveloping the planet. Or instead maybe just move the ability to T2 where the two squads dropped can make more of an impact? I think the former would be cooler, but the latter at least gives the ability more utility and options for the nid player.
Anyway, that's my thinking. Tyranids probably need more time in this patch to see where they stand in the meta but I don't think their lack of cc and large vulnerabilities of the units listed above has ever really been addressed so would like to hear thoughts on it. Or if I'm just wrong about these being issues wouldn't mind hearing the reasons for that as well.