Why are Ogryns SHI?

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Yabbaman » Fri 15 Feb, 2019 1:05 pm

They don't wear any tangible armor and move too fast. It's incongruous with the presence of terminators, tyrant guards, guos and avatars. Why not give them infantry armor and a larger health pool? Would help them against power melee heavy builds and factions, and look better at the same time with the fat dudes being brought down more readily by regular bolter fire. Countering arguments of how detrimental and nerfy a change like this would be, I'd like to draw your attention towards the balance team's continued efforts at nerfing PM and CPM, both of which are noticeably less potent units.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Oddnerd » Fri 15 Feb, 2019 3:45 pm

Ogryns fill a similar niche as ASM/raptors - their primary purpose is bullying ranged units. Giving them SHI armour makes them good at bullying piercing damage blobs while having the same vulnerability to power_melee and plasma damage that other tanky melee units have.

The armour and damage types are not meant to serve the lore, they are meant to balance the game.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Yabbaman » Fri 15 Feb, 2019 4:20 pm

Oddnerd wrote:Ogryns fill a similar niche as ASM/raptors - their primary purpose is bullying ranged units. Giving them SHI armour makes them good at bullying piercing damage blobs while having the same vulnerability to power_melee and plasma damage that other tanky melee units have.

The armour and damage types are not meant to serve the lore, they are meant to balance the game.


Armour and damage types work in conjunction with models, animations and effects. Making things look more or less plausible even in the WH40k context is good. Armour type is just one way of balancing the game. It is up to debate whether say a 4000hp infantry armour Ogryn squad is nerf or buff in the current meta. Currently, imo, for their cost, Ogryns overall underperform against Chaos and OM (especially so if they get a librarian).
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Black Relic » Sat 16 Feb, 2019 6:21 am

They are your dreadnought with SHI armor. You should not have them start the engagement imo. I think having them follow up after the GMs are committed is the best use of Ogryns. That way enemy has to focus fire them as they are taking large amount of piercing or plasma damage to the face.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Oddnerd » Sat 16 Feb, 2019 6:41 am

I don't think there is much to debate.

Right now, Ogryns with a bone 'ead have an effective hp of 6250 against piercing attacks (Base HP / damage modifier = effective HP). 4000 hp infantry armour would be worse in that regard but still a lot of HP. Now look at the damage types that normally are effective against ogryns - plasma/inferno/melta/melee_power_weapons/melee_heavy. Right now, ogryns have an effective HP against plasma of 1250 (plasma does 1.5x damage against their 1875 hp). With 4000 infantry hp, now they have an effective HP of ~5714, which is a roughly 4.5-fold increase. Against melta they go from 1500 to 4000, about a 2.67x increase. Against inferno they go from 1875 to 4000, roughly a 2.15x increase. Against power melee they go from ~2400 (with 40% melee res + 1.3x damage modifier factored in) to ~6667hp, about a 2.8x increase. Against heavy melee weapons, they go from 3125 to ~6667, roughly 2.15x.

So you are proposing making Ogryns less tanky against piercing damage, and in exchange, they are not becoming 2-4.5x as effective against every weapon type that was supposed to be effective against them. Think about how this is going to change matchups. Also consider that the IG roster doesn't need another unit with a monstrous pool of infantry HP. They have that for dirt cheap prices in T1.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Yabbaman » Sat 16 Feb, 2019 3:12 pm

Oddnerd wrote:I don't think there is much to debate.

Right now, Ogryns with a bone 'ead have an effective hp of 6250 against piercing attacks (Base HP / damage modifier = effective HP). 4000 hp infantry armour would be worse in that regard but still a lot of HP. Now look at the damage types that normally are effective against ogryns - plasma/inferno/melta/melee_power_weapons/melee_heavy. Right now, ogryns have an effective HP against plasma of 1250 (plasma does 1.5x damage against their 1875 hp). With 4000 infantry hp, now they have an effective HP of ~5714, which is a roughly 4.5-fold increase. Against melta they go from 1500 to 4000, about a 2.67x increase. Against inferno they go from 1875 to 4000, roughly a 2.15x increase. Against power melee they go from ~2400 (with 40% melee res + 1.3x damage modifier factored in) to ~6667hp, about a 2.8x increase. Against heavy melee weapons, they go from 3125 to ~6667, roughly 2.15x.

So you are proposing making Ogryns less tanky against piercing damage, and in exchange, they are not becoming 2-4.5x as effective against every weapon type that was supposed to be effective against them. Think about how this is going to change matchups. Also consider that the IG roster doesn't need another unit with a monstrous pool of infantry HP. They have that for dirt cheap prices in T1.


Mine is not a balance proposal, but rather a design change, yes - I want to see Ogryns dropping models to piercing damage. Whether it's 4000hp or 3000 or whatever, I don't care. It should assume some value that works in the end for overall faction balance. Hopefully units with infantry armour aren't that scarce in the game and it shouldn't be that hard to gauge the final number.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Sex - Murder - Art » Sat 16 Feb, 2019 3:45 pm

Ogryns were also heavy infantry back in Dawn of War 1. They act a similar role compared to DoW II.

They are your fast moving dreadnoughts / shock troops that tear apart everything in their path. This is their concept.

SHI armor has 2 good beneifts in my opinion apart from resistance to piercing damage.

- Gives resistance to regular melee attack
- Requares a smaller health pool, easier to heal back to full with regeneration
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Yabbaman » Sat 16 Feb, 2019 5:48 pm

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:They are your fast moving dreadnoughts / shock troops that tear apart everything in their path. This is their concept.


That's an interesting concept.

Sex - Murder - Art wrote:SHI armor has 2 good beneifts in my opinion apart from resistance to piercing damage.

- Gives resistance to regular melee attack
- Requares a smaller health pool, easier to heal back to full with regeneration


Not talking about it's benefits, that's pretty obvious. Talking about how the whole thing looks and compares to other units with the same armor type.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Torpid » Sun 17 Feb, 2019 5:51 am

Yabbaman wrote:Mine is not a balance proposal, but rather a design change, yes - I want to see Ogryns dropping models to piercing damage. Whether it's 4000hp or 3000 or whatever, I don't care. It should assume some value that works in the end for overall faction balance. Hopefully units with infantry armour aren't that scarce in the game and it shouldn't be that hard to gauge the final number.


That is a balance proposal for the reasons that Olev just explained. At least, it's a design proposal that would have gigantic effects on balance. 4000LI hp, and 1875 SHI hp are not equivalent. Ogryns are very niche as it is, though balanced, but with light infantry armour i don't see why anyone would ever get them. For anti-melee you go catachans, for absorbing piercing damage guardsmen would be far more cost effective and for AV you have far far better options in the heavy weapon team variants, stormtroopers, the manticore and the sentinel.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Yabbaman » Sun 17 Feb, 2019 3:40 pm

Torpid wrote:That is a balance proposal.


No, it is not.

Torpid wrote:i don't see why anyone would ever get them


You see it this way because you've been playing this game for 10 years.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby boss » Sun 17 Feb, 2019 5:05 pm

Ogryns having SHI is a curse in elite since all races got buffed in plasma, inferno, or power melee damage compare to retail, this is where they suffer the most from and probably the unit that got nerfed a lot. Now im not saying the unit itself got nerf but there counters got buffed and this went on for years and in turn having Shi on a unit with not much hp just dies fast now.

Another way they got nerf is walkers have melee resistance compare to retail and now they can only do some work to them other than range walkers they fail to deal with them, again compare to retail they would win or at least do loads of damage to all walkers. Other than vs tyranids or orks I don't see why you ever would get Ogryns in the first place they just too easy to counter nowadays.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Yabbaman » Sun 17 Feb, 2019 5:18 pm

Oddnerd wrote:The armour and damage types are not meant to serve the lore, they are meant to balance the game.


This is a grossly stupid statement you're making here by the way. Relic introduces these variables as part of their game design. In this case I am very unconvinced that Ogryns should have SHI. This is all this topic is about. If you want a perfectly balanced strategy game go play checkers.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Commander keen30 » Sun 17 Feb, 2019 5:47 pm

This is a grossly stupid statement you're making here by the way. Relic introduces these variables as part of their game design. In this case I am very unconvinced that Ogryns should have SHI. This is all this topic is about. If you want a perfectly balanced strategy game go play checkers.


It is called Elite balance mod for a reason. Make Ogryns infantry armour and you might as well remove them from the game . Nobody is gonna spend that amount of req and power on a unit that would get destroyed by most T1 units.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Yabbaman » Sun 17 Feb, 2019 6:26 pm

Commander keen30 wrote:
This is a grossly stupid statement you're making here by the way. Relic introduces these variables as part of their game design. In this case I am very unconvinced that Ogryns should have SHI. This is all this topic is about. If you want a perfectly balanced strategy game go play checkers.


It is called Elite balance mod for a reason. Make Ogryns infantry armour and you might as well remove them from the game . Nobody is gonna spend that amount of req and power on a unit that would get destroyed by most T1 units.


Really? I thought that dude, in the post with all those numbers, meant it'll be op.

Also, seer council are doing fine too.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Oddnerd » Sun 17 Feb, 2019 11:03 pm

Yabbaman wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:The armour and damage types are not meant to serve the lore, they are meant to balance the game.


This is a grossly stupid statement you're making here by the way. Relic introduces these variables as part of their game design. In this case I am very unconvinced that Ogryns should have SHI. This is all this topic is about. If you want a perfectly balanced strategy game go play checkers.


Relic doesn't control Elite mod. You might think it is stupid, but Elite mod is made to be a balance-oriented mod; that is not my opinion - it is a fact that has been stated by the design team. Elite mod exists because Caeltos wanted to make a balanced, competitively viable mod for DOW2 that cut back on all the cheese and glaring imbalances of Retail DOW2. The game tries to be congruent with the lore as much possible but ultimately it's balance that dictates Elite mod's design. Damage types and armour types don't exist to serve the lore - they aren't even declared on the units' in-game and have to be looked up in the codex. They are purely functional properties used by the design to team to make certain weapons more or less effective against certain targets. Ogryns have SHI armour to make them particularly effective at bullying piercing damage-oriented ranged blobs, but weak against anti-HI weaponry. They did not decide Ogryns should have SHI armour and then build their design around that - they decided on a role for Ogryns and then gave them an armour type to allow them to have the desired weaknesses and strengths. That's how balance-oriented game design works.

Also, whether or not you want your suggestion to be a balance suggestion is irrelevant - it would absolutely impact balance, so therefore it is a balance suggestion. Almost every matchup an IG player could have would be changed by this. Races which rely on power melee and plasma to bring down ogryns would suffer tremendously.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Yabbaman » Sun 17 Feb, 2019 11:39 pm

Oddnerd wrote:Damage types and armour types don't exist to serve the lore.


They exist to serve the lore so long as the lore exists to make this universe compelling for the players to experience.

Oddnerd wrote:Ogryns have SHI armour to make them particularly effective at bullying piercing damage-oriented ranged blobs, but weak against anti-HI weaponry. They did not decide Ogryns should have SHI armour and then build their design around that - they decided on a role for Ogryns and then gave them an armour type to allow them to have the desired weaknesses and strengths. That's how balance-oriented game design works.


And what is balance-oriented game design? If you reckon relic are so great at balancing their games, then why can't they balance them for years and there are always some "pro" mods doing it for them? Surely DOW2's design doesn't lend itself well to balance, it's more of a fun-oriented game design.

Oddnerd wrote:Also, whether or not you want your suggestion to be a balance suggestion is irrelevant - it would absolutely impact balance, so therefore it is a balance suggestion. Almost every matchup an IG player could have would be changed by this. Races which rely on power melee and plasma to bring down ogryns would suffer tremendously.


Surely you have more interesting suggestions, like splitting Battlecry into 10 abilities and CL immolate being totally game breaking.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Oddnerd » Sun 17 Feb, 2019 11:50 pm

Yabbaman wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:Damage types and armour types don't exist to serve the lore.


They exist to serve the lore so long as the lore exists to make this universe compelling for the players to experience.


That isn't your decision to make - it is up to the balance team to decide what purpose they serve. Your opinion is irrelevant in this context.

Yabbaman wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:Ogryns have SHI armour to make them particularly effective at bullying piercing damage-oriented ranged blobs, but weak against anti-HI weaponry. They did not decide Ogryns should have SHI armour and then build their design around that - they decided on a role for Ogryns and then gave them an armour type to allow them to have the desired weaknesses and strengths. That's how balance-oriented game design works.


And what is balance-oriented game design? If you reckon relic are so great at balancing their games, then why can't they balance them for years and there are always some "pro" mods doing it for them? Surely DOW2's design doesn't lend itself well to balance, it's more of a fun-oriented game design.


I don't think Relic are so great at balancing games; I think they are terrible at it - that is why it is nice to have a team of mod developers who are making a balance-oriented mod to provide an alternative to shit show that is Retail. When I say "they", I am referring to the Elite mod development team, not Relic.
Yabbaman wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:Also, whether or not you want your suggestion to be a balance suggestion is irrelevant - it would absolutely impact balance, so therefore it is a balance suggestion. Almost every matchup an IG player could have would be changed by this. Races which rely on power melee and plasma to bring down ogryns would suffer tremendously.


Surely you have more interesting suggestions, like splitting Battlecry into 10 abilities and CL immolate being totally game breaking.


You can't even parody my suggestions correctly. You aren't the first shit player with a bad attitude to show up to the Elite mod forums and tell the mod team they need to make changes because "muh lore adherence". Many have tried; all have failed - just like you will. Your suggestions are stupid because they are calling for dubiously lore-oriented changes in a balance-oriented mod. Go play retail if you don't like the situation here in Elite mod. If this is the best you can do then you will never have any impact on Elite mod's balance. I've already done so twice. Go play Retail.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 12:14 am

How can you even call someone out for their suggestions when you yourself suggest infantry armor ogryns because "I want it."?
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Yabbaman » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 12:25 am

OceansAteAlaska wrote:How can you even call someone out for their suggestions when you yourself suggest infantry armor ogryns because "I want it."?


Easy. He seems really into the whole "balance" thing, but I am not proposing this as a balance suggestion. I want it, because it would look right and I am not suggesting any numbers. Secondly, his other balance-concern topics on the forum are kinda inane to say the least, so I don't see why he is so much against my proposal, when it should obviously work and possibly even improve the game, as follows from the boss' evaluation of the current state of things.

This whole thing is really for the mod creators to evaluate, whether they like it or not, not much else.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 12:37 am

this is a balance mod simple as that. It's not a "we do what yabbaman wants because he wants it" mod. Simple as that.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Yabbaman » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 12:39 am

OceansAteAlaska wrote:this is a balance mod simple as that. It's not a "we do what yabbaman wants because he wants it" mod. Simple as that.


you are not doing anything
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 12:40 am

I swear some people on these forums have 5 iq...
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Yabbaman » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 12:45 am

OceansAteAlaska wrote:I swear some people on these forums have 5 iq...


You?
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Atlas » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 4:35 am

Why are Ogryns SHI?


Because they're as fat as your mom and twice as smart! HEYOOOOO

But in more seriousness, it makes them resistant to most normal sources of damage in exchange for being vulnerable to more specialized damages. This is pretty much the opposite of the "core" IG army, so it makes enemies have to diversify their damage output a bit.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Yabbaman » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 2:20 pm

Atlas wrote:
Why are Ogryns SHI?


Because they're as fat as your mom and twice as smart! HEYOOOOO

But in more seriousness, it makes them resistant to most normal sources of damage in exchange for being vulnerable to more specialized damages. This is pretty much the opposite of the "core" IG army, so it makes enemies have to diversify their damage output a bit.


This is all I needed to hear from you.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Toilailee » Mon 18 Feb, 2019 4:22 pm

Torpid wrote:
Yabbaman wrote:Mine is not a balance proposal, but rather a design change, yes...


That is a balance proposal for the reasons that Olev just explained. At least, it's a design proposal that would have gigantic effects on balance...


Yabbaman wrote:
Torpid wrote:That is a balance proposal.


No, it is not.


Yabbaman wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:The armour and damage types are not meant to serve the lore, they are meant to balance the game.


This is a grossly stupid statement you're making here by the way. Relic introduces these variables as part of their game design. In this case I am very unconvinced that Ogryns should have SHI. This is all this topic is about. If you want a perfectly balanced strategy game go play checkers.


Yabbaman wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:Damage types and armour types don't exist to serve the lore.


They exist to serve the lore so long as the lore exists to make this universe compelling for the players to experience...


Yabbaman wrote:
OceansAteAlaska wrote:How can you even call someone out for their suggestions when you yourself suggest infantry armor ogryns because "I want it."?


Easy. He seems really into the whole "balance" thing, but I am not proposing this as a balance suggestion. I want it, because it would look right and I am not suggesting any numbers. Secondly, his other balance-concern topics on the forum are kinda inane to say the least, so I don't see why he is so much against my proposal, when it should obviously work and possibly even improve the game, as follows from the boss' evaluation of the current state of things.

This whole thing is really for the mod creators to evaluate, whether they like it or not, not much else.


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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Black Relic » Thu 21 Feb, 2019 3:14 pm

Yabbaman...

Changing the armor type of a units to something else effects balance, thus a balance change.

Increasing the HP pool of a unit affects balance thus a balancing change.

Both need to be done for an ACTUAL reason other than "it makes sense." for a mod that revolves around balance.

Changing their armor type cannot be simply fixed just by increasing their HP pool. The logic in that is flawed. I understand you are trying to make up for the Orgyns losing their resistance to piercing damage by increasing their HP pool. But then you are effecting how other weapons damage the unit as well as (and more importantly imo) effecting how other races deal with IG.

ATM the squad purchase of Ogryns forces a player to get weapons to counter their SHI armor type.

If the Ogryns lost their SHI and gained HP equal to the amount of damage they can soak up from piercing damage, then Orgyns could take on a melee dreadnought easily.

What you want is a change that impacts balance in a big way. What you want is a balance change. If you dont see that, you need to stop playing this mod and make your own.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Impregnable » Thu 21 Feb, 2019 7:24 pm

Black Relic wrote:Yabbaman...

Changing the armor type of a units to something else effects balance, thus a balance change.

Increasing the HP pool of a unit affects balance thus a balancing change.

Both need to be done for an ACTUAL reason other than "it makes sense." for a mod that revolves around balance.

Changing their armor type cannot be simply fixed just by increasing their HP pool. The logic in that is flawed. I understand you are trying to make up for the Orgyns losing their resistance to piercing damage by increasing their HP pool. But then you are effecting how other weapons damage the unit as well as (and more importantly imo) effecting how other races deal with IG.

ATM the squad purchase of Ogryns forces a player to get weapons to counter their SHI armor type.

If the Ogryns lost their SHI and gained HP equal to the amount of damage they can soak up from piercing damage, then Orgyns could take on a melee dreadnought easily.

What you want is a change that impacts balance in a big way. What you want is a balance change. If you dont see that, you need to stop playing this mod and make your own.


Cannot be put in better words. To know whether something is a design change or a balance change, you need to have a look at final result.
Design Change
How it used to work: 1 + 1 = 2
How it works after change of design: 1 X 2 = 2
- As you can see here, both results in 2 but the process in way they reach the result 2 is different. This is a pure design change because it affects only the process but ultimately reaches the same effect.

Balance Change
How it used to work: 1 + 1 = 2
How it works after balance change: 1 + 1 + 2 = 4
- This is pure balance change as it results in a different effect while the process of getting to it remain the same.

Of course real life example is often the mix of both and as a result a pure design change is often impossible. What Yabbaman proposes is this. The way he wants to change Ogryns results in both the change in design of how a unit works and affects balance at the same time. He seems to think it is only a PURE DESIGN CHANGE but in order to do that he needs to prove how changing of Ogryn's armor type results in the exact same meta and exact role for a unit including how it is countered and when it is purchased. This is not realistically possible as Black Relic and many others have explained.

In conclusion, if someone wants to prove that something they propose is a PURE DESIGN CHANGE, they need to prove that it does not change the result of how things are currently working in every single aspect or come very similar to it. A PURE DESIGN CHANGE must only affect the process in which the results are reached not the results.
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby ShowMeMagik » Fri 22 Feb, 2019 12:56 pm

Yabbaman wrote:
OceansAteAlaska wrote:How can you even call someone out for their suggestions when you yourself suggest infantry armor ogryns because "I want it."?


Easy. He seems really into the whole "balance" thing, but I am not proposing this as a balance suggestion. I want it, because it would look right and I am not suggesting any numbers. Secondly, his other balance-concern topics on the forum are kinda inane to say the least, so I don't see why he is so much against my proposal, when it should obviously work and possibly even improve the game, as follows from the boss' evaluation of the current state of things.

This whole thing is really for the mod creators to evaluate, whether they like it or not, not much else.


Ok Im going to try to help you out on this one, but correct me if Im wrong.


You want to change the armour type for lore reasons and nothing to do with balance. Im guessing you are therefore asking the modders to find a way to balance them in this new form?
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Re: Why are Ogryns SHI?

Postby Atlas » Fri 22 Feb, 2019 5:17 pm

Yabbaman wrote:
Atlas wrote:
Why are Ogryns SHI?


Because they're as fat as your mom and twice as smart! HEYOOOOO

But in more seriousness, it makes them resistant to most normal sources of damage in exchange for being vulnerable to more specialized damages. This is pretty much the opposite of the "core" IG army, so it makes enemies have to diversify their damage output a bit.


This is all I needed to hear from you.


Too late boys, I already have ended the thread. Award me my points and proclaim my greatness to everyone you know.

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