what follows is the entire post I wanted to make there.
I want to start by apologizing for using such an ambiguous word as trait. I know a trait could very well be having 2.5 speed. Since a trait can merely be something you possess. When I think of a trait in this context though I think of an advantage or a unique feature that gives you an edge. I thought that was clear given the context. Please keep in mind this explanation when I refer(red) to a trait. My apologies.
Elaborate on this please because it makes no sense to me.Caeltos wrote:Heavy Armor IS a trait, regardless of your opinion on it. And it should be accounted for, disregardign that is just silly.
Let's ask ourselves what counters suppression teams.
In T1:
- Snipers who do the same damage to HI.
- Jump troops who do the same damage to HI and do even more damage to HI when they have power melee like storm boys (or Bloodletters come T2).
- Grenade launcher who deal more damage to HI.
- Thrown grenades who also deal more damage to HI.
- Infiltration which will be a combination of the above weapons.
- Flanking where they receive a bit less damage from "normal arms fire" [piercing_pvp]. But let's be honest here. Flanks are carried out to (force) melee, throw a grenade, etc to force suppression teams off in which case you probably want infantry armor.
- Artillery which will deal more damage to HI.
You also have to remember that non of the above mentioned counters is any better in dealing with the infantry armored suppression teams who on top of that have more health than their HI counterparts. I left out hero abilities because of the more complex state of those and because I wanted to address the "generic" counters but they too can deal with suppression teams. Like Flesh Hook, Hammer of the Witches, High Powered Shot, Defend, etc. Feel free to add methods I didn't address that play in favor of HI or infantry armored suppression teams.
Let's compare those numbers. Source: directly from the mod files using Cope's DoW2 Toolbox with some much appreciated guidance from Uncle Milty <3.Caeltos wrote:They have a good setup/tear-down time compared to a lot of setup-teams
Shurycan, Lootas, Devastators: setup time 3 seconds, tear down time 2 seconds.
Havocs: setup time 3 seconds, tear down time 3 seconds.
IG heavy weapon squad: setup time 3.1 seconds, tear down time, 3.1 seconds.
Av (and light AV) variants all have setup time 4 seconds, tear down time 3 seconds.
Except the IG team which keeps its odd 3.1 seconds all the time.
To me it seems only 2 teams fall out of the "standard boat" here namely Chaos and IG.
Devastators definitely do not have a better setup time than the rest since it's the same across the board bar IG. And devastators share their tear down time with 2 others making it seem "standard" to me.
I'm sorry but the only way I can describe what you wrote here is just plain wrong :/
"Heavy damage?" It's the 2nd worst in my book.Caeltos wrote:heavy-damage setup team
(I don't deem Lootas worse for the reasons below.)
Shurycan raw DPS: 240
IG heavy bolter raw DPS: 223.73
Heavy bolter raw DPS: 216.39
Lootas raw DPS: 208.76 (*)
Havoc raw DPS: 204.88
(*) With worse damage modifiers for distant and long, 0.2 instead of 0.3, but better modifiers for medium, 1.4 instead of 1.25, and and short, 3.5 instead of 2.75
Which works well with their infiltrating ability.
The same health pool most others have. While the IG and Ork one have even more health with infantry armor which means they are "tougher" against the above mentioned suppression team counters. Eldar being at its own unique spot.Caeltos wrote: with respectable health-pool
Flanking will force of most of the suppression teams if they are alone. The extra speed the shurycan team has however will help them defying this by either backing of or repositioning themselves more quickly.Caeltos wrote:Shuriken has the highest manuverability and damage. However it also is quite suspectiable to even ranged damage due to being regular infantry. Meaning they're easier to fend off from ranged firefights/flanks
Here you argue about 2 things that as shown above are wrong. More specifically the response time and damage. Flanking has also already been addressed above.Caeltos wrote:Devastators/Havocs are more potent at responding to the flanks, but more noticeable the Devastator due to their superior tear-down time. However, as they deal more damage - they deal less courage damage on the distances.
On a side note. Because many people like to address devastators "high damage": I think anyone would happily trade ~10 and even more DPS for instant suppression or another unique advantage.
Other races can combo very well if not better with their setup teams as well because the individual setup teams and squads are already more potent on their own.Caeltos wrote:They're quite potent to be very manuverable and scale with melta-bombs ASMs in T2 and in conjunction with Missile Launchers.
Shotgun scouts help here indeed. Just as other units for the other races do the same. Some even without costing power.Caeltos wrote:Last and not least, the scouts shotgun to mitigate the pressure potential and safe-guard their surviveability and misc. other factors of course in that sense from unit composition.
How is a sent stomp, Catachans, (upgraded) hero, .. protectionCaeltos wrote:Compared to IG/Eldar in that sense, at least - they've got far better protection capability of their setup-teams and are better at punishing against engagements.
or Banshees, another shurycan, (upgraded) hero protection
any worse than what SM's offer? I would say they are arguably even better than what the SM's have to offer for protection. Something Sub_Zero also touched upon earlier.
First you tell us the setup & tear down time is something important to note that the Devastators have to help counter flanks but then here you say it has no real significance for a counter push? I would like to hear some clarification here.Caeltos wrote:Whereas the Shuriken is more potent at pressure potential due to it's speed and damage output. The setup/tear-down has no real significance in commiting to responding to a counter-push given their relative low health pool and etc;
Either you are contradicting yourself or I am misunderstanding the point.
Maybe something is lost in translation trough the unstable Warp.
Their health pool is just the same as the other HI ones with a mix of infantry and HI in the squad. If there is support though the shurycan has it easier to reposition itself.
It's also very important to note that the squad belongs to a race that can deploy "perfect cover" which will counter one of the suppression team counters: snipers.
I find that highly debatable in the case of Devastators. Every suppression team has its unique advantages that non of the others possess. Except the SM one, they don't have such an advantage. I shall make a nice list of advantages the teams have in another post as I think this is already enough reading material.Caeltos wrote:Each setup-team has their traits, nobody is worse then the other. Espicially when you factor the overall army composition scaling performance of each corresponding faction.