Supression teams (Devastators)

[Dark Riku]

I'm making this topic because as always this discussion sprouted in another topic :p
what follows is the entire post I wanted to make there.


I want to start by apologizing for using such an ambiguous word as trait. I know a trait could very well be having 2.5 speed. Since a trait can merely be something you possess. When I think of a trait in this context though I think of an advantage or a unique feature that gives you an edge. I thought that was clear given the context. Please keep in mind this explanation when I refer(red) to a trait. My apologies.

Heavy Armor IS a trait, regardless of your opinion on it. And it should be accounted for, disregardign that is just silly.

Elaborate on this please because it makes no sense to me.

Let's ask ourselves what counters suppression teams.
In T1:

• Snipers who do the same damage to HI.
• Jump troops who do the same damage to HI and do even more damage to HI when they have power melee like storm boys (or Bloodletters come T2).
• Grenade launcher who deal more damage to HI.
• Thrown grenades who also deal more damage to HI.
• Infiltration which will be a combination of the above weapons.
• Flanking where they receive a bit less damage from "normal arms fire" [piercing_pvp]. But let's be honest here. Flanks are carried out to (force) melee, throw a grenade, etc to force suppression teams off in which case you probably want infantry armor.

In T2:

• Artillery which will deal more damage to HI.

So what is so advantageous about being HI? Being a bit more resistant to small arms fire [piercing_pvp] that doesn't directly counter them in the first place?
You also have to remember that non of the above mentioned counters is any better in dealing with the infantry armored suppression teams who on top of that have more health than their HI counterparts. I left out hero abilities because of the more complex state of those and because I wanted to address the "generic" counters but they too can deal with suppression teams. Like Flesh Hook, Hammer of the Witches, High Powered Shot, Defend, etc. Feel free to add methods I didn't address that play in favor of HI or infantry armored suppression teams.

They have a good setup/tear-down time compared to a lot of setup-teams

Let's compare those numbers. Source: directly from the mod files using Cope's DoW2 Toolbox with some much appreciated guidance from Uncle Milty <3.

Shurycan, Lootas, Devastators: setup time 3 seconds, tear down time 2 seconds.
Havocs: setup time 3 seconds, tear down time 3 seconds.
IG heavy weapon squad: setup time 3.1 seconds, tear down time, 3.1 seconds.
Av (and light AV) variants all have setup time 4 seconds, tear down time 3 seconds.
Except the IG team which keeps its odd 3.1 seconds all the time.

To me it seems only 2 teams fall out of the "standard boat" here namely Chaos and IG.
Devastators definitely do not have a better setup time than the rest since it's the same across the board bar IG. And devastators share their tear down time with 2 others making it seem "standard" to me.
I'm sorry but the only way I can describe what you wrote here is just plain wrong :/

heavy-damage setup team

"Heavy damage?" It's the 2nd worst in my book.
(I don't deem Lootas worse for the reasons below.)

Shurycan raw DPS: 240
IG heavy bolter raw DPS: 223.73
Heavy bolter raw DPS: 216.39
Lootas raw DPS: 208.76 (*)
Havoc raw DPS: 204.88

(*) With worse damage modifiers for distant and long, 0.2 instead of 0.3, but better modifiers for medium, 1.4 instead of 1.25, and and short, 3.5 instead of 2.75
Which works well with their infiltrating ability.

with respectable health-pool

The same health pool most others have. While the IG and Ork one have even more health with infantry armor which means they are "tougher" against the above mentioned suppression team counters. Eldar being at its own unique spot.

Shuriken has the highest manuverability and damage. However it also is quite suspectiable to even ranged damage due to being regular infantry. Meaning they're easier to fend off from ranged firefights/flanks

Flanking will force of most of the suppression teams if they are alone. The extra speed the shurycan team has however will help them defying this by either backing of or repositioning themselves more quickly.

Devastators/Havocs are more potent at responding to the flanks, but more noticeable the Devastator due to their superior tear-down time. However, as they deal more damage - they deal less courage damage on the distances.

Here you argue about 2 things that as shown above are wrong. More specifically the response time and damage. Flanking has also already been addressed above.
On a side note. Because many people like to address devastators "high damage": I think anyone would happily trade ~10 and even more DPS for instant suppression or another unique advantage.

They're quite potent to be very manuverable and scale with melta-bombs ASMs in T2 and in conjunction with Missile Launchers.

Other races can combo very well if not better with their setup teams as well because the individual setup teams and squads are already more potent on their own.

Last and not least, the scouts shotgun to mitigate the pressure potential and safe-guard their surviveability and misc. other factors of course in that sense from unit composition.

Shotgun scouts help here indeed. Just as other units for the other races do the same. Some even without costing power.

Compared to IG/Eldar in that sense, at least - they've got far better protection capability of their setup-teams and are better at punishing against engagements.

How is a sent stomp, Catachans, (upgraded) hero, .. protection
or Banshees, another shurycan, (upgraded) hero protection
any worse than what SM's offer? I would say they are arguably even better than what the SM's have to offer for protection. Something Sub_Zero also touched upon earlier.

Whereas the Shuriken is more potent at pressure potential due to it's speed and damage output. The setup/tear-down has no real significance in commiting to responding to a counter-push given their relative low health pool and etc;

First you tell us the setup & tear down time is something important to note that the Devastators have to help counter flanks but then here you say it has no real significance for a counter push? I would like to hear some clarification here.
Either you are contradicting yourself or I am misunderstanding the point.
Maybe something is lost in translation trough the unstable Warp.

Their health pool is just the same as the other HI ones with a mix of infantry and HI in the squad. If there is support though the shurycan has it easier to reposition itself.
It's also very important to note that the squad belongs to a race that can deploy "perfect cover" which will counter one of the suppression team counters: snipers.

Each setup-team has their traits, nobody is worse then the other. Espicially when you factor the overall army composition scaling performance of each corresponding faction.

I find that highly debatable in the case of Devastators. Every suppression team has its unique advantages that non of the others possess. Except the SM one, they don't have such an advantage. I shall make a nice list of advantages the teams have in another post as I think this is already enough reading material.

[Faultron]

u forgot to mention counter in T1
suppression immunity (abilities, commander trait) which helps standard weapons (piercing dmg) work against them
or global Flare


and Vengeance rounds for devastator as ,trait' which is the best when u face a commander or army with suppression or KB immunity/resistance.+ light AV

for example Destructor does piercing dmg where heavy armor is good

(and eldar brightlance is the ,worst' since no slow and low base damage, but they shouldnt either.)

where suppression team for nids and GK? (i am joking here)

Edited: destructor- a lot of players said it is piercing so i remembered in that, sry

[Caeltos]

Oh fucking dear god.

Don't do this when we're so close to christmas.

[Codex]

Caeltos, I think it's pretty clear Riku put a lot of effort into this, can we at least give it a chance?

[crazyman64335]

Merry christmas caeltos, here's every SM player during the holiday season

http://s29.postimg.org/mndf0sp7r/Merry_Christmas.jpg

[Caeltos]

Caeltos, I think it's pretty clear Riku put a lot of effort into this, can we at least give it a chance?

It wasn't meant to be that way. It's more in the sense in alot of text to read and I wasn't able to process it.

Truth be told tho, I'm not to bothered with finding a concensus in any balance threads. It'll rather just read and observe what individuals have to say, and compare what others have to say. I've said this numerous time, and it's just an endless debate with no end that reaches any sort of concensus.

By the definition of "worst" they would be classed as worst in EVERY single category, without ANY pros to their cons. This is just how things work with general unit designs in any game. Look even in MOBA games, healers/supports in MOBA games.

Let's just say; we've got 2x healer supports - However, one support has faster movement speed and is more potent for helping other lanes and has a stun. The other one has more sustainability and provide more overall lane dominance. Kit-wise, they're close-enough to be identical, but practical gameplay-wise they're different.

Different genre tho, but the practical sense of a unit-design even in an RTS-game, whereas there are similiarites, doesn't mean they're identical in the sense on how you play with them, or how they synergize within the army.

Devastators have their pros/cons, just like all other setup-teams in the game. Are the pros/cons justified for their cost and performance overall? Well that's of course up for debate, but it's boiled down to abit of a preference of how you want your units to be and accepting a units overall design and functionality within the army composition.

It becomes abit skewed in perspective tho at times. If Devastators gets jumped on by Stormboy UYC and gets gibbed in matter of seconds, that's not the Devastators issue itself. It's just the implemention and design of UYC that's intervening with general game mechanics and interrupting some general and basic-gameplay & strategical value of the game.

Is it broken? I don't know, you'd have to ask Relic about that personally. Alot of things got mixed up in the bag from Launch to TIOW and to present day. Game was rushed out of the gates and it's fairly easy to assume some things might have been overlooked in the general gameplay, and the players had to simply just deal with the consequences. I'm sure they missed some core-mechanic and gameplay potential "useage" from players that would cause some backlash in how some games went down, but overall I don't think it's that big of a deal, as long as the red cost/overall effect of the ability can be tweaked accordingly.

Shotgun scouts help here indeed. Just as other units for the other races do the same. Some even without costing power.

The only ones that I can think of straight off the bat during the course of T1 is Heretics. I assume it's just general crowd-control // halt-agression type of abilities.

To me it seems only 2 teams fall out of the "standard boat" here namely Chaos and IG.
Devastators definitely do not have a better setup time than the rest since it's the same across the board bar IG. And devastators share their tear down time with 2 others making it seem "standard" to me.
I'm sorry but the only way I can describe what you wrote here is just plain wrong :/

Better tear-down than Havocs - Check
Better tear-down than IG setup-team - Check

I didn't say the had the best. I said they had better then some others (Used a lot, and I should have said some, so that was probably just poorly phrased)

And you say I'm wrong, what the fuck is this? Oh wait, I know exacly what this is.

I'm not just going to bother. Sorry Codex I tried for a good chunk of time to deliberately care enough to read & respond, and I got what I was expecting.

I'll keep the topic open of course, but I'm likely not going to care. Take it what you will.

Merry christmas caeltos, here's every SM player during the holiday season

http://s29.postimg.org/mndf0sp7r/Merry_ ... istmas.jpg

I feel like I'm reading something like that everyday and not just the christmas. Being the most favorite, iconic and awesome-looking faction certainly has its merits.

[Codex]

Hm I'm satisfied with that response Cael. To be honest though, I haven't given this issue all too much thought. I'll give it a thorough response tomorrow though.

[Faultron]

just to reply about the new idea of devas upgrade (subzero in other topic)

it is very questionable since SM has very easy transition into AV in T2 and very potent.(ASM,Tacticals,Wargears)
and vengeance rouds still light AV good vs early vehicles, while countering infantry.
so there is no big restriction, that will put you behind, this is more like race specific decision and army build.


+everyones favorite: Libby support for devas is also something

[Lulgrim]

Destructor does piercing dmg where heavy armor is good

If you mean the Warlock ability, it's grenade damage (extra to HI).

[Torpid]

Overall devastators are one of the worst set-up teams. However ASM, IMO at least, are one of, if not the best, units in the entire game. Scouts are arguably the second best (best are avengers, but tacs and asm are way better than shees and shuris) starting unit too, so all things considered I don't think a devastator buff is justified.

Riku I find you're making Asmon's mistake in that you're just directly comparing units of other races without considering the purpose of each specific unit within that race. I'm fine with havocs and shurikens vastly out-performs devastators in most scenarios due eldar bleeding so much in straight up combat (making shurikens/rangers rather necessary), and tics really need those havocs so they aren't bled every few seconds by ranged units all over the map. The only suppression team I don't like atm is the HWT, i don't see why it gets to be so resistant to damage and is immune to suppression/kb when the entire IG army destroys you at ranged as it is.

[Dark Riku]

u forgot to mention counter in T1 suppression immunity (abilities, commander trait) which helps standard weapons (piercing dmg) work against them or global

No... I mentioned commander abilities. Like the suppression immunity Defend gives.
In my mind this also implied their global abilities, I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

<3 crazyman64335 :p


@Caeltos

The only ones that I can think of straight off the bat during the course of T1 is Heretics. I assume it's just general crowd-control // halt-agression type of abilities.

I listed all other things right below that statement that can also act as counter aggression for the other 2 races

Better tear-down than Havocs - Check
Better tear-down than IG setup-team - Check

I didn't say the had the best. I said they had better then some others (Used a lot, and I should have said some, so that was probably just poorly phrased)

And you say I'm wrong, what the fuck is this? Oh wait, I know exacly what this is.

You already answered the question yourself. Everyone can make mistakes. No need to get all fused up about it :/ I'm not trying to imply anything else here or offend you in any way. If I did I'm sorry for that. That definitely is not my intend.
(I also don't know what you think it meant :/)

But the fact still remains you said:

They have a good setup/tear-down time compared to alot of setup-teams,

Which definitely is just wrong for the setup time. While the tear down time holds only true against the minority (2) of the suppression teams.


When you find the time I would still very much like to hear the answers on the questions I posed towards you on the original post since I feel like I made some
pretty strong and well worded points. Happy holidays! ^^

[Sub_Zero]

Chaos used to have 3 units in T1. And they had no jump units. Havocs were created to supress instantly to help Chaos to deal with setup teams (combine that with worship effects, grenade launchers and heroes' abilities). That is the reason why they have this trait I believe. IG's heavy weapon team was created as the best setup in the game (and like it how it is). Very tanky in T2, different upgrades and can repair and fire at the same time (I am sad that this ability doesn't exist anymore, could remain it but with a worse rate of repairing, when you want to repair your vehicles in combat if you need this team to shoot at enemies?). That is how I see these supression teams.
Eldar just hide behind their setup teams and I don't wonder that 2x shuriken cannon builds are very popular. It is always good to have a free reign to chop up jump squads with banshees. And the only buff I suggest for devastators (if that can be considered as a buff) is vengeance rounds transition into lascannon with no restriction. Because sometimes you can really regret your decision upgrading them with vengeance rounds.

[Broodwich]

vengeance rounds are a pretty good trait Imo because it gives you soft av and increased damage on demand while still keeping its suppression in the same unit. Granted it's not too hard to get around vengeance unless you are using a lib ($$$) to support it, but it does force the enemy into reacting to you in a different way that you can plan on to counter them.

No other setup team has that ability. Personally I think vengeance could use a tweak or two to make it more viable, like being able to still upgrade to las or more accuracy or range or more damage to vehicles or something. But the basic keeps suppression is pretty useful

or Hey, just make lib less expensive then you can count on the two supporting each other. But that's another thread

[Faultron]

vengeance rounds are a pretty good trait Imo because it gives you soft av and increased damage on demand while still keeping its suppression in the same unit. Granted it's not too hard to get around vengeance unless you are using a lib ($$$) to support it, but it does force the enemy into reacting to you in a different way that you can plan on to counter them.

No other setup team has that ability. Personally I think vengeance could use a tweak or two to make it more viable, like being able to still upgrade to las or more accuracy or range or more damage to vehicles or something. But the basic keeps suppression is pretty useful

or Hey, just make lib less expensive then you can count on the two supporting each other. But that's another thread

no, u dont have suppression while ability activated, unless got buffed super hard in secret:)

elite 2,1 buffs vengeance rounds
Vengeance Rounds cooldown decreased from 45 to 30 seconds
Vengeance Rounds cost adjusted from 50/10 to 75/0
Vengeance Rounds build time decreased from 30 to 10 seconds
Vengeance Rounds damage buff increased from 50% to 75%
Vengeance Rounds now also increases maximum range by 6

[Dark Riku]

no, u dont have suppression while ability activated, unless got buffed super hard in secret:)

He never said that they suppressed while the ability is active.
He stated that they still can perform as a suppression team with the upgrade.

[Toilailee]

Well I'm just gonna say that devs/havoks/lootas can drop a model and have to resetup since the gunner model is always in the front unlike with shuris/hwts. But because of that they are also a lot harder to wipe with aoe and in the long run this "trait" is more important than not having to worry about dropping a model and resetting up, and out of the 3 the only ones you ever see used in late game are devs.

Devs just fit sm roster & eco so damn well that they are a good purchase in any tier and they have access to awesome synergies with libby, that no other race can hope to match.

I'm happy with devs performance and imo they are the best scaling set up team in the game.

[Bahamut]

i just wish vengeance rounds were a toggle fire mode rather than a temporary buff

[Nuclear Arbitor]

they'd probably be op if they were; they let devs counter other setup teams. might work if they used energy over time.

i will say that i don't object to vengeance rounds still letting the squad purchase lascannons on principle but i don't really know what's involved. another option would be to give them a buff vs vehicles come t2.

[Orkfaeller]

What bothers me most about Devastators ( coming from a very average player ) is their survivalbility, or lack there of.

Like the OP said, considering the things that actually threaten set up teams, heavy armour seems more of a weakness than a strength most of the time.

Low HP, extra damage through powermelee and a low model count causes Devastators to go down unnaturally fast IMHO. At T2 they arent even glas-cannons anymore, more like a house of cards that just falls over if you breath at it.

I just wished Devastators had a ( noticable ) raise in HP or more fighting power on the two "spotters". More Bolter damage, melee resistance, anything ( imho melee resistance should be something all (( non scout )) space marines should have, but that doesnt really belong here )

Or if they could upgrade with a Sergeant, either adding an additonal model or replacing the gunner, I dont know...

long story shot, I can live with Devastators underperforming in firepower/supression/mobility if they had more standing power.

[Torpid]

If you're having a hard time using devs in t2 onwards then try using purgation in t2.

[Orkfaeller]

I'm not sure if I'd compare Devastators and Purgations.

but; 225 HP without melee resistance vs 300 HP with melee resistance.

Ofcourse they have to get alot closer, but I'd kill for those stats on my Devs^^

[Torpid]

But devastators have a range of 49 whereas purgation have a range of 27 with flamers, or 36 with psycannons. It makes it so that vs most races in t2 you can't use pugations in big engagements, only as side-cappers/ninja-bashers unless you have interceptors, which is why I think they should get some form of squad leader, however squad leaders are technically trouble-some so that isn't likely to happen, so maybe just a 25% passive health buff come t2 would be better. I really don't see why devastators warrant a buff when purgation are as bad as they are and nobody wants to buff them, and even if purgation were buffed I still think devs perform fine, they should be behind the super tanky SM army, how exactly are you meant to hurt them? If you let the foe flank then by god he should rightly wipe your devastators for your mistake!

[Bahamut]

dude, i don't know about buffing devastators. But purgators are retarded powerful right now, even with sub par range you now need jump troops to approach them, and to top it of they're the only supression squad that will bash your gen farm if you lose the engagement against them. No way in hell purgators need more buffs anymore, even freaking noise marines are jealous of them now

[Torpid]

They're great in t1, like most things GK and their immobilisation ability when they have flamers is in fact a little bit over the top, but as soon as you get some decent t2 ranged firepower out purgations absolutely melt before they can get in range with the flamers, and with the psycannons they are just horribly cost ineffective and not as useful for ninja-bashing/side capping.

[ThongSong]

vengeance rounds happen to be one of my favourite abilities in the game. Almost melted a landraider at close range once.

[Orkfaeller]

vengeance rounds happen to be one of my favourite abilities in the game. Almost melted a landraider at close range once.

It does a silly ammount of damage to LRs,

I swear it has something to do with the LR's "size type" or something.

[Charerg]

I feel that Devastators are fine. Yes, they may not be the best set-up team in the game, but even that is debatable. If Devs are the worst, then they're the worst by a very slight margin.

First off, when comparing them to Shuris, one should keep in mind that eldar rely on their set-ups teams much more than the space marines do. Shuriken Cannons are more or less necessary in most match-ups. With SM, Tacs have enough standing power that you don't always need that Devastator to suppress the enemy.

And ofc SM also have Assault Marines, which is more of a general purpose unit than Rangers, and a very powerful one at that. So, Devastators are often overlooked in T1 simply because the SM player wants to play aggressive.

Compared to Havocs, there isn't a big difference between the Devastators and the Havocs. And one might also point out that ASM are better than Raptors. So, should Raptors be buffed because they're not as good as ASM?

The answer is no, because Raptors are in a different army than ASM. The same argument could be used for the Devastators, when viewed in the context of the SM army, their performance is fine.

[Torpid]

Exactly.

[Dark Riku]

First of all I would rather not involve GK's in this discussion.
Especially since they do not fill the "setup-suppression team criteria".

Compared to Havocs, there isn't a big difference between the Devastators and the Havocs. And one might also point out that ASM are better than Raptors. So, should Raptors be buffed because they're not as good as ASM?

The answer is no, because Raptors are in a different army than ASM. The same argument could be used for the Devastators, when viewed in the context of the SM army, their performance is fine.

That's just plain wrong. You're forgetting the BIG DIFFRENCES between the 2 teams. Havocs have INSTANT SUPRESSION. Then there is also the awesome T2 AUTOCANNON upgrade and their BETTER LASCANNON upgrade.
While Devastators only get get a -1 second faster tear down in comparison to them (this isn't even a unique advantage since this tear down is shared with most other teams!! aka standard tear down time) and advanced targeting -.-

Your Raptor-ASM example makes no sense. They both actually have traits.
You could compare them in the way you did if raptors didn't suppress on landing.

For example: Raptors perform way better against setup teams already explained in multiple post throughout the forum. With the more base DPS and better ability on landing against those kind of units.

Now please get back on topic.

[Charerg]

It is questionable whether or not Havoc Lascannon is better. While Havoc Lascannon doesn't have windup it has longer overall cooldown. Or at least it was that way in retail. I'm not sure if this was changed in Elite. In any case the Lascannons are very close in terms of performance.

As to the Autocannon, it's relatively rarely seen, sacrifices suppression, and Devastator has the Vengeance Rounds (which the Havoc lacks).

The only real major advantage the Havoc does have over the Devastator is instant suppression. And it is a trade-off for having that longer tear-down time. Though I agree this probably does make the Havoc slightly better, at least in Tier 1.