Supression teams (Devastators)

[Dark Riku]

It is questionable whether or not Havoc Lascannon is better. While Havoc Lascannon doesn't have windup it has longer overall cooldown. Or at least it was that way in retail. I'm not sure if this was changed in Elite. In any case the Lascannons are very close in terms of performance.

There is no question here at all. The lascannon on the havoc has 40.24 DPS and the lascannon on the Devastators has 33 DPS. Please perform minimal research when posting. Numbers of those can be found on this very same site.

As to the Autocannon, it's relatively rarely seen, sacrifices suppression, and Havoc has the Vengeance Rounds (which the Havoc lacks).

By what magical imaginary number is it rarely seen? I see it plenty of times.
Especially now autocannons got another damage buff.

The only real major advantage the Havoc does have over the Devastator is instant suppression. And it is a trade-off for having that longer tear-down time. Though I agree this probably does make the Havoc slightly better, at least in Tier 1.

No that is just one of the major advantages. Higher damage isn't something small.
Give me that instant suppression over that 1sec tear down time any time.

[Charerg]

Very well, I suppose the Havoc Lascannon is better. Since this wasn't the case in retail, I suppose this change was made because Chaos struggled with vehicles in Elite.

In my experience the Autocannon is seen in specific match-ups like VS IG. The loss of suppression is a pretty big drawback, and ofc the autocannon has much worse anti-vehicle efficiency than Lascannon.

However, while the Autocannon is something the Devastator doesn't have, it's still more of an additional option than a straight-up advantage for the Havoc. There are many situations, like facing Nobs, when you want to keep the suppression.

And the Devastator does have Advanced Targeting which is an option the Havoc can't get. Now, whether Vengeance Rounds are actually worth buying, especially as you can't get a Lascannon if you get them, is another question.

Actually, I think the Devastator should probably be able to upgrade to Lascannon even after buying the Advanced Targeting.

I suppose you could "buff" the Devastator by making Advanced Targeting a generic upgrade that applies to both Heavy Bolter and Lascannon (giving HB the Vengeance Rounds and with Lascannon....maybe some ability that adds a new dimension to the unit, similar to Brightlance's Beam Scorch).

[Torpid]

Overall havocs are better. Instant suppression is massive, they have a stronger lascannon than devs and the autocannon way way way outshines the utility you get from vengeance rounds. But we're still making straight up comparisons here which is a waste of time. SM get razorbacks which synergise with their missle tacs as a very strong versatile AV and AI combination and SM get ASM with their melta bomb, so it's fair to say the SM lascannon being slightly weaker the chaos one is justified, much like it's fair to say the HB devs being slightly weaker than HB havocs is also justified.

[Nurland]

Overall havocs are superior to devs if you just look at the raw numbers. Though Devs don't need to go immobile and show the world what they are upgrading to when they are upgrading. Not sure if already mentioned but thought to point it out.

Autocannons are fairly common sight for havocs. At least among the more experienced players. In retail I almost never bother with the lascannon upgrade unless I absolutely need the vehicle snare.


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[Sub_Zero]

still making straight up comparisons here which is a waste of time

Between units with similar functions that cost 250 / 30 (except ig's weapon team). No need to tell me that havocs serve a specific role in chaos roster. Just a better setup team that cost the same amount of resources. And I like when someone talks about low damage output of spacemarine and other guys tell him about mystic buffs you have to benefit from. What if I will say here that chaos havocs gotta be worse than devs because they can escape from melee units faster/get faster to a firing position (khorne), tougher (nurgle), invisible (tzeentch), huh?

[Torpid]

still making straight up comparisons here which is a waste of time

Between units with similar functions that cost 250 / 30 (except ig's weapon team). No need to tell me that havocs serve a specific role in chaos roster. Just a better setup team that cost the same amount of resources. And I like when someone talks about low damage output of spacemarine and other guys tell him about mystic buffs you have to benefit from. What if I will say here that chaos havocs gotta be worse than devs because they can escape from melee units faster/get faster to a firing position (khorne), tougher (nurgle), invisible (tzeentch), huh?

I would argue that scout's cheapness and speed counter any benefits that worship offers. Also to be fair, those boons that havocs have are pretty meh compared to have having SM hero support/asm support.

[Forestradio]

still making straight up comparisons here which is a waste of time

Between units with similar functions that cost 250 / 30 (except ig's weapon team). No need to tell me that havocs serve a specific role in chaos roster. Just a better setup team that cost the same amount of resources. And I like when someone talks about low damage output of spacemarine and other guys tell him about mystic buffs you have to benefit from. What if I will say here that chaos havocs gotta be worse than devs because they can escape from melee units faster/get faster to a firing position (khorne), tougher (nurgle), invisible (tzeentch), huh?

I would argue that scout's cheapness and speed counter any benefits that worship offers. Also to be fair, those boons that havocs have are pretty meh compared to have having SM hero support/asm support.

This.

I don't hear anyone complaining about how ASM are waaaaay better than raptors. Especially in T2, it's not even a comparison.

[Sub_Zero]

Worship offers benefits for your entire army including vehicles and that is pretty important. Scouts just cap points and give you some utility. How can it be compared I don't know. And what it has to do with setup teams is even a bigger mystery for me. Unless we compare heretics and scouts. And heretics act as a melee counter right out of the gates and can worship while scouts are the worst unit for fighting early on, only good for capping and without upgrades they can't compete against other capping units. Heretics and scouts both cost 210 req. What about the cheapness you was talking about? Also what about asm support? What it has to do with setup teams? In your words if we buff devastators somehow it will make the entire SM T1 roster OP?

[Torpid]

Worship offers benefits for your entire army including vehicles and that is pretty important. Scouts just cap points and give you some utility. How can it be compared I don't know.

Because your capping strategy is more important than your fighting strategy in 1v1.

Unless we compare heretics and scouts. And heretics act as a melee counter right out of the gates and can worship while scouts are the worst unit for fighting early on, only good for capping and without upgrades they can't compete against other capping units. Heretics and scouts both cost 210 req. What about the cheapness you was talking about? Also what about asm support? What it has to do with setup teams?

I'm referring to how tics bleed and scouts don't, while scouts are simultaneously better at capping. ASM have melta bombs, that's key, it makes the SM AV potential way way way better, the razorback/libby/missle launchers all does the same. Chaos don't get that, they have no transitional AV except PMs and they certainly don't get something like VoT lasdevs.

In your words if we buff devastators somehow it will make the entire SM T1 roster OP?

Yes, that's exactly right.

[Sub_Zero]

Because your capping strategy is more important than your fighting strategy in 1v1.

From my small 1 v 1 experience I can say that capping war takes place early on and during T1. Then there is just fighting and a bit of capping. I have never seen a game when there had been no big battles but skirmishes. Also I notice that in many casts of Indrid, Maestro Cretella.

In your words if we buff devastators somehow it will make the entire SM T1 roster OP?

The only thing I have in my mind at the moment is transition from vengeance rounds into the lascannon. That would fit the theme of versatility of space marines. Also this tweak will probably stimulate players to use vengeance rounds more frequently because there will be no fears that you won't be able to get a harder source of av-option.

[crazyman64335]

the capping war in a 1v1 basically never ends, the main part of it happens early game yes, but theres far more to it than that. And basing it off cretella's and indrid's casts don't do it justice because they're focusing on the battles because that's what people want to see, nobody wants to see the scouts back capping red's natural req point, they wanna see the fight at mid vp.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Buff Devastators could make them a bit OP in T2 with Veil of Time.

Making available the Lasscannon if the Vengeance Rounds are purchased will be a good buff against inmune to suppression/knockback commanders.

[Nurland]

I think being able to get Las after Vengeance might be a justifiable buff. That would probably make Vengeance rounds an autobuy though.

[Sub_Zero]

Hm maybe someone doesn't want to spend 75 req if he knows for sure that he is going for the lascannon in T2.

[Faultron]

yes the idea is not rly useful or needed, cos u can do different builds.
devas are not ,tacticals', the small decision doesnt hurt rly
but the advanced targeting is very good, and underrated i think just now
nothing wrong with devas

[Broodwich]

I would make it back to costing a little bit of power, that way it's a bit more of an investment decision.

[Charerg]

I was thinking that since "Advanced Targeting" still seems somewhat underused, you could make it into a general upgrade that applies to both Heavy Bolter and Lascannon.

If the Devastator is armed with the Heavy Bolter, it receives the Vengeance Rounds.

If a Lascannon is armed, the Devastator gains a new ability. This ability should be something like Beam Scorch for Brightlance, an ability that adds a new dimension to the unit, but nothing immensely powerful.

So, here's an ability suggestion:

Electromagnetic Discharge; The Devastator can switch between normal firing mode and EM Discharge. If in EM Discharge firing mode, the Devastator does no damage (still snares vehicles, though), but instead drains energy from the unit hit. EM Discharge has 100% accuracy against all targets, draining 25 energy per shot.

Possible uses: Similar to Beam Scorch, the EM Discharge is designed give the Devastator some combat capability against non-vehicle targets. You could use it to target units like Tyrant Guard, ASM, Heroes, and prevent them from utilizing their abilities.

In the LasDev VS Tyrant Guard situation this might actually be a bit of a buff to the Devastator, but since I feel the Tyrant Guard slightly overperforms against SM (and the MU is generally in Tyranid favour atm), I think the buff is justified.

[Sub_Zero]

Hm, I like your idea but it will never be implemented since it is a great buff which everyone is scared of.

[Vapor]

Hm, I like your idea but it will never be implemented since it is a great buff which everyone is scared of.

Lol

[Nurland]

Hm, I like your idea but it will never be implemented since it is a great buff which everyone is scared of.

Please refrain from saying stuff that doesn't contribute to the discussion. Expressing support is one thing but the second part is really not very helpful.

Edit: And fv100 if you could refrain from posts that say just "lol" in a balance topic, it would be A+.

[Sub_Zero]

Yes, Nurland, I understand you. But what about that loling creature above your post? He contributes even less (nothing at all) and it is rather insulting.

[appiah4]

The problem with Advanced Targeting is two fold:

1. It's too cheap an investment if you could replace it with a Lascannon
2. It's too weak an upgrade (regardless of cost) due to scaling too poorly compared to vehicle HP in T3.

Solutions:

a. Make it cost 15 power, make it replacable.

OR

b. Give it a snare against vehicles, make them easier to hit with heavy melee units.

[Lag]

How about keeping it as it is? Crazy, right?

[Nurland]

The problem with Advanced Targeting is two fold:

1. It's too cheap an investment if you could replace it with a Lascannon
2. It's too weak an upgrade (regardless of cost) due to scaling too poorly compared to vehicle HP in T3.

Solutions:

a. Make it cost 15 power, make it replacable.

OR

b. Give it a snare against vehicles, make them easier to hit with heavy melee units.

Snaring Sentinels in T1 does not sound very balanced. In addition it would make light vehicle rushes against SM rather pointless. Also VR do quite a lot of damage to vehicles in medium/short range. 55dps on medium range and 120dps on short range. This is assuming using the ability does not change the damage modifiers that are determined by distance.

Why should a T1 upgrade be able to take out T3 vehicles?

Vengeance Rounds are quite fine atm imo.

[Tex]

I 100% agree. The upgrade has received several (well deserved) buffs and I really feel its in a good spot. It has a concrete place in SM play (used to full effect against unshakeable commanders) and I find myself using it more and more when I have the FC or TM as my commander. Obviously the apo's AV potential is a big weakness for him in early T2 so I think advanced targeting is a lot less viable for him.

[Sub_Zero]

The upgrade shines only in T1-T2. In T3 I usually regret it.

[Torpid]

And I usually regret getting flamers on my guardsmen and GLs on my tics in t3, but we can't buff GLs and Flamers as a consequence. Not everything is meant to scale, SM or not, in fact very few things are meant to scale well in this game. When you make a purchase you're meant to do it for a reason so that it is worth it and doesn't bite you in the ass later on - this is why pre-emptive purchases are generally a bad idea and it's kind of the whole deal with this game as very few units can swap their upgrades once they have them.

[Sub_Zero]

We are talking about devastators as about a setup team with no traits. I consider vengeance rounds as their trait but you have to purchase it which is fine since it gives you great bonuses. And that is the thing I come from saying that they should upgrade to AV-option like all setup teams do after getting their trait.

[Charerg]

I kind of agree that Vengeance Rounds should be more of a generic upgrade than a weapon upgrade that is comparable to something like a Lascannon or an Autocannon. VRounds just don't make enough of an impact to merit them being treated as a separate weapon upgrade.

All the upgrade gives is an ability to the unit. The weapon itself remains the same, as does the role of the unit. Stuff like flamers, shotguns and GLs tend to have a bit more impact, and more drastically define the role of the unit once upgraded.

[Lag]

I kind of agree that Vengeance Rounds should be more of a generic upgrade than a weapon upgrade that is comparable to something like a Lascannon or an Autocannon. VRounds just don't make enough of an impact to merit them being treated as a separate weapon upgrade.

It has a concrete place in SM play (used to full effect against unshakeable commanders)