Squad Leaders.

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Antandron
Level 2
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat 15 Jul, 2017 11:50 am

Squad Leaders.

Postby Antandron » Tue 29 Jan, 2019 3:26 pm

*This post might be garbage*

I am going to argue that some squad leaders are mispriced, making them OP or UP, using a simple method of estimating squad leader cost that can be applied to all squad leaders in all factions. I've ignored all subtleties of squad leaders filling holes in rosters and all that complicated stuff.

Summary: Squad leader cost = base model cost + any improvement in dps/hp + abilities + squad improvements - 25% discount because of full-cost reinforcements (except die-last)

Fire Dragon Exarch = 90/10 + 50% for having nearly 2xhp (see below) + 50req for the (+4) range + no abilities = 115/30 or 235/0. -25% = 95/20 or 175/0
Kasrkin Sargeant = 90/6 + 25% for having slightly more hp and better dps + no abilities + no squad improvement = 85/15 or 145/0. - 25% = 70/10 or 110/0.
GM Sargeant = 35/0 + not much because he is similar to a GM (15req) + 2 free GM (70req) + 2for1 reinforcement (50req) = 170/0. No discount because of die-last.
Purifier Justicar = 150/22 or 237/0 + 15% hp (7.5% of base cost, see below = +17req) + Psychic Field (50/0) + (+3) charge range (25/0) + (+1)hp/s regen (25/0) = 355/0 or 175/45. - 25% = 145/30 or 265/0.

a. AI playing an infinite number of games.

Imagine an artificial intelligence programmed to play Elite Mod as well as your average Elite League player in terms of micro and understanding of the game. This Elite Mod AI would play vs itself over an infinite number of games, exploring various strategies and counter-strategies like a human player would. It could explore one particular strategy, record the win% and compare against the win% of another strategy and select whichever is better. Now suppose that this Elite Mod AI were to play every matchup on a selected number of maps an infinite amount of time and output the win% for each faction hero vs every other hero. Ideally, each hero would have a win% of 50 vs every other hero for perfect balance to be achieved, but this would not be the case with the current patch 2.8.1 because perfect balance is impossible. However, let’s suppose that Nids had an average win% of 45, so to improve them, their unit costs would be lowered by 5% and the Elite Mod AI would play an infinite number of games again. Now the win% is 52, so the price could be increased by 1% to 4% less than the original values until the win% is close to 50.

After all this, the other faction win% would change and could then create some imbalances because of certain matchups and the whole process could be repeated, but this time with the costs of individual units, unit upgrades and squad leaders being adjusted each time. Another infinite number of iterations of an infinite number of games would be played until every matchup was close to a win% of 50-50 and each unit, upgrade and squad leader was costed appropriately according to how much influence it had on the win%. Also, it would be possible to adjust unit stats so that all the units available were used a significant proportion of the time, and that no units were ignored by the Elite Mod AI because they were either underpowered or fulfilled roles that were already covered by other units.

All of this is impossible but does prove one important point and that is that these ideal costs do exist. Finding out what they are exactly is impossible but they exist and the job of any balance mod is to try and find out what they are to a satisfactory degree of accuracy. As no model exists that I am aware of to price squad leaders I have created one and applied it to all squad leaders in the game consistently. There is a possibility that other imbalances will be created by doing this, but none of the changes are extreme and as they are applied in the same way to all factions, I fail to see how any serious imbalances could be created. If they are, that can be fixed at a later date.

a.2. This all assumes that the base squad is correctly priced. If not, then their price needs to be fixed first.
b. If the squad leader is stronger than the base models in the squad, the squad leader should cost more than the base models.
c. If the squad leader is identical to the base models, the squad leader should cost the same as the base models.
d. The cost of a squad leader depends on a comparison with the base models. e.g. If a base model is 200req, and the squad leader 50% better, then the squad leader should cost about 300req.
e. I'm using the 4:1 req : power exchange rate to make things easier.
f. Die-last models should cost extra for not having to reinforce and whatever other advantages they get.
g. Ideally, squad leaders would reinforce at 1/2 cost the same as base models. Unfortunately, this isn't possible as far as I know so I will discount all squad leaders by 25% to make up for their increased reinforce cost, with the exception of die-last models which should stay the same price.
h. If the squad leader provides additional abilities which increase the strength of the squad, there should be an additional cost in proportion to how strong the abilities are. e.g. +4 range for the squad might cost 20req.
i. If the squad leader improves the strength of the base unit, there should be an additional cost in proportion to how much the base unit is improved. e.g. the base unit costs 400req, and the squad leader makes them 25% stronger, then this would add 100req to the squad leader cost as 25% of 400req is 100req.

j. Estimating Unit Improvement

Disclaimer: This is all speculation and guesswork but if applied consistently to all squad leaders and upgrades it sort of makes sense.

A unit can be split into ‘offense’ and ‘defense’ where offense is related to its dps, range, mobility and other abilities which help to deal damage and defense is related to its hp, armour type, mobility and other abilities which help to avoid taking damage. Offense and defense can also apply to neighbouring units via buff and debuffs.

Two units instead of one unit is twice the cost, twice the models, twice the hp, twice the dps and the same armour type, range and speed. So, instead of having two units, imagine one unit doubling its dps and hp. How much should this unit cost? An estimate is that it should cost twice as much. Having two units allows the player to cap more points and engage two different enemy units but having one unit with double the dps and hp reduces the bleed from model losses, and assuming that these cancel each other out it makes sense to assume that

a. Doubling dps and hp is worth about +100% of the unit cost.
b. Doubling only dps is worth about +50% of unit cost.
c. Doubling only hp is worth about +50% of unit cost.

It's the same as algebra:
tac = (dps, range) + (armour type, hp) = 450 req
2tacs = 2 x (dps) + 2 x (hp) = 900 req

1x (dps) = 225req or 1/2 the unit cost
1x (hp) = 225 req or 1/2 the unit cost

I haven't explained this well, but it's only a rough guide.

(I don’t know how to account for differences in melee and range dps here. It could be estimated by finding out how often a unit is doing melee damage and how often it is doing ranged damage.)

It follows that +x%dps is worth x% of 50% of the unit cost. So +50% dps would be worth +25% unit cost, +20%dps would be worth +10% unit cost and so on. +x%hp would be worth x% of 50% of the unit cost also.

This only works when taking the base unit and adding hp as -100% hp would be -50% cost but the unit now has 0hp and is dead. It also only applies to small changes to the base unit like +20% or +40% dps or hp. Taking SM Terminators from 4500 to 9000 might be worth +50% of their base cost but any further improvements in hp are not very valuable as the unit is nearly unkillable already with 3000hp SHI per model and a teleport.

k. Estimated costs for abilities and weapons:

I’ve taken the liberty of estimating the value of unit upgrades and abilities, priced in requisition. If necessary these can be converted into req/power using the 4:1 conversion ratio which I’ve adopted for simplicity. I have assumed that it is possible to make loose comparisons between factions, so that in general, the stronger or more influential an ability or upgrade is, the more it will cost. Also, consider the improvement over the base weapon and not the weapon itself. e.g. Raptor AC Power Fist is an upgrade from the Raptor Chainsword. I've guessed at these is steps of 25req because it's not accurate but clearly some are better than others.

Detection = 50
Scout Grenades = 50
ATSKNF = 50
Merciless Strike = 50
Stormboyz Stun on landing = 25
Raptor Demonic Fury = 50
Raptor AC Power Fist = 75
Stormboy Choppa = 75
Catachan Camoflage = 25
Catachan Sarge Melta Gun = 50
Interceptor Improved Teleport = 50
Purifier Psychic Field = 50
Slugga Swamp ‘em = 25
IST Grenades = 50
IST Fanaticism = 50
Kommando Nob Rokkit Launcher = 50
Banshee +0.5 speed = 25
Inq Ops Melta Bomb = 50

l. Possible problems.

Unit Timings.

These shouldn’t be affected much as, assuming +50 power income, +5 power is a delay of 6 seconds and +10 power is a delay of 12 seconds.

T2 Timings.

It is possible that by increasing the req/power cost of some T1 upgrades that are mandatory in some matchups would delay T2 for too long and put the faction at a serious disadvantage.
I have tried to keep the req/power as close to 4:1 for all squad leaders to prevent imbalances caused by an overreliance on power for some factions. If there are problems with some factions teching too quickly and some too slowly, the req:power costs for squad leaders and upgrades can be adjusted to be more or less reliant on power.

m. Results:

http://www.mediafire.com/file/9lggqqq3j ... .xlsx/file

The file is a bit of a mess but it is possible to see how it works.
Last edited by Antandron on Wed 30 Jan, 2019 6:39 am, edited 4 times in total.
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OceansAteAlaska
Level 2
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun 17 Dec, 2017 3:38 pm

Re: Squad Leaders.

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Tue 29 Jan, 2019 4:38 pm

We don't have such an ai so what's the point of all this senseless talk
Antandron
Level 2
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat 15 Jul, 2017 11:50 am

Re: Squad Leaders.

Postby Antandron » Tue 29 Jan, 2019 5:34 pm

I do it just to annoy you.

But seriously, if the only rule that people agree on is that "If the squad leader is stronger than the base models in the squad, then the squad leader should cost more than the base models." then the following are probably OP/UnderCosted: Bone'ead, Purifier Justicar, Interceptor Justicar, Raptor AC, GM Sargeant, GM Commissar and the following UP/Overcosted: Kasrkin Sargeant and possibly others depending on your opinion of how much their abilities are worth.

edit: fixed
Last edited by Antandron on Wed 30 Jan, 2019 6:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Broodwich
Level 4
Posts: 527
Joined: Fri 12 Apr, 2013 10:04 pm

Re: Squad Leaders.

Postby Broodwich » Tue 29 Jan, 2019 6:34 pm

wouldn't call all of those clearly...
Fas est ab hoste doceri

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