2.9 Patch: Upkeep and Pop Values.
Posted: Mon 14 Jan, 2019 7:35 am
One major problem with each patch release is that 12 different players can hold 12 different opinions on what a units stats, cost, upkeep or pop value should be and this causes much annoyance in the community and many poor balance decisions. The aim of this post is to explain what I believe to be the correct method for setting upkeep and pop values, in a way that most players can understand, and therefore prevent the usual response of "stop fucking with the upkeep" to every upkeep change in every patch. Changes to upkeep and/or pop values should then not be met with any opposition once the reasons for them are obvious.
It is also important to post it now, before 2.9 is released, as there are two changes to Nid upkeep, namely Raveners and Venom Brood, which will be terrible for the Nid economy. All stats are using patch 2.9 from the beta notes here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gAW ... s=5b74949a
Upkeep
Premise 1. Upkeep is designed to be a catch-up mechanism preventing larger armies from snowballing easily. It acts as a tax on units that reduces available req income in proportion to the strength of the army.
Premise 2. Upkeep has NOTHING to do with ‘asymmetric balance’, ‘flavour’ or ‘comparing units in a vacuum’.
Premise 3. The cost of a unit in req/power is closely related to its strength.
Conclusion 1. For upkeep to be a ”fair and balanced” tax it should be a fixed percentage of the unit’s cost for all units in all factions. Stronger units in the same tier should have more upkeep than weaker units; units of similar strength, and therefore similar cost, should have similar upkeep.
Note1. Upkeep between units in different tiers can’t be compared since the % tax is lower for tier 2 and tier 3. Tier 2 units can be compared to tier 2 units and tier 3 units can be compared to tier 3 units but tier 2 units should not be compared to tier 1 nor tier 3 units.
Note2. Upgrades complicate the matter a little as they increase the cost and strength of units while not changing the upkeep, but can be ignored for now as nearly all units have some possible upgrades available.
Note3. These examples do not use squad leaders and neither do they need to as squad leaders have their own upkeep values.
Tier 1 examples:
Tics (200/0) should have a similar upkeep to Scouts (210/0).
CSM (400/0) should have slightly lower upkeep than Tacs (450/0).
Devs (250/30), Havocs (250/30), Guardian Weapon Teams (250/30) and HWT (250/30) should all have the same upkeep. Lootas (240/30) should also be similar upkeep.
ASM, Raptors and Stormboys should have higher upkeep than Tacs, CSM and Sluggas.
Examples of broken tier 1 upkeep:
Rangers (210/25) have the same upkeep as unupgraded GM (210/0) at 15 upkeep each.
ASM (450/50) and Raptors (400/40) have the same upkeep as Banshees (350/0), Tacs (450/0) and CSM (450/0) at 38 each.
Raveners (400/40) have the same upkeep as unupgraded Sluggas (270/0) at 31 each.
Catachans (350/40) have less upkeep than Sentinels (350/0) at 26 vs 31.
Warriors (300/25) are having their upkeep changed in patch2.9 to 57.
Tier 2 examples:
The best T2 units such as the SM Dread (450/120), CSM Dread (410/120) and Wraithlord (425/100) should have much higher upkeep than weaker T2 units.
The best T2 transports such as the Falcon (360/90) should have higher upkeep than the average transports like the Razorback (280/60) and the Chimera (300/70) and the Wartrukk (200/30) should have the lowest upkeep of the transports.
The worst T2 units should have the lowest T2 upkeep, e.g. Tankbustas, Venom Brood, Storm Troopers.
Examples of broken tier 2 upkeep:
The SM, CSM and GK Dreadnoughts have an upkeep of 38 while Warpspiders have an upkeep of 41, Venom Brood 57 (patch 2.9), Bloodletters 41, Chosen PMs 41, PMs 38, Wraithguard 38.
The Falcon (360/90) has an upkeep of 31 which is the same as PDevs (400/0) Stikkbommas (330/20), Tankbustas (300/0) and only 5 more than the Wartrukk (200/30).
The Autarch (350/50/150red) has an upkeep of only 13.
The consequence of this that that the meta leans towards walkers and transports and away from T2 infantry which is making the game stale imo.
Examples of broken Tier 3 upkeep:
Lictor (400/75) has 26 upkeep and the Neurothrope (400/75) will have 51 upkeep in patch 2.9
Flash Gitz (37 upkeep) Commandos(38 upkeep) compared to GK Paladins (54 upkeep).
Pop Values
Premise1. Pop values are designed to cap the max strength of each army.
Premise2. For pop values to be useful, 100pop of each faction should be approximately equal strength to 100pop of every other faction.
Premise3. Pop values have NOTHING to do with ‘asymmetric balance’, ‘flavour’ or ‘comparing units in a vacuum’.
Conclusion1. Pop values should be proportional to the strength of the units.
Premise4. The cost of a unit represents its strength.
Conclusion2. Pop values should be proportional to the cost of the units.
Conclusion3. For units in the same tier, stronger/more expensive units should have higher pop values than weaker/cheaper units. Units of similar strength should have similar pop values.
Note1. Pop values can only be compared to units in the same tier in the same manner as upkeep and for the same reason.
Note2. It is difficult to get correct pop values for units with multiple models as each model can only have an integer for pop values, e.g. Banshees can only ever really be 10pop (5models x 2pop/model) or 15pop (5models x 3pop/model).
Tier 1 examples:
Set Ups Teams which all cost about the same should have the same pop values.
ASM (450/50) should have higher pop than Tacs(450/0)
Raptors (400/40) should have higher pop than CSM (400/0) and a similar pop to Raveners (400/40).
Stormboyz(350/35) should have a similar pop to Catachans (350/40).
Spotters (280/30) should have a similar pop to Set Up Teams (~250/30)
Noise Marines (350/30) should be similar to Tacs(450/0).
Painboy (350/30) should be similar to other 350/30 units (Catachans, Stormboys)
Rangers (210/25 in patch2.9) should be similar to scouts, heretics and guardsmen.
Examples of broken Tier 1 pop values:
Rangers at pop 6 and Painboy at pop 5 when heretics are pop 8, scouts are pop 9 and hormagaunts and termagaunts are pop 8.
Ravener Brood (400/40) are pop 12 when Tacs, CSM and SS are pop 15.
ASM, Raptors should be more pop than Tacs and CSM but this would increase the pop of SM and CSM too much imo so better to leave them alone.
Banshees are pop 15 but only cost 350/0 while ASM and Raptors are also pop 15.
Catachans pop 10 but Tacs and CSM pop 15.
Spotters pop 9 when Set Ups teams are all pop 12 with the exception of the HWT which is pop 8, which is also broken and should be moved to 12.
Sentinel could go down in pop to 9 but difficult to say with recent patch2.9 changes.
Tier 2:
As with upkeep, the best T2 units should have higher pop values than the average T2 units. This is not the case.
Examples of broken Tier 2 pop values:
SM, CSM and GK dreadnoughts are pop 15. Compare to Bloodletter pop 16, Warpspiders pop 16, Wraithguard pop 15, Venom Brood pop 15, Plague Marines pop 15.
Subcommanders have very low pop: Autarch = 5, Librarian = 5, Vindicare = 5, Weirdboy = 5.
Wraithlord and Falcon are only pop 12. Compare to above infantry.
Wartrukk is pop 10 but is much worse than the Falcon at pop 12. Deff Dread is pop 12 but significantly worse than the Wraithlord at pop 12 also.
Tier 3
Examples of broken Tier 3 pop values:
Non-SHI cost too much pop in comparison to other units. Kasrkin, Kommandos and Interceptors are all pop 15 when Terminators are pop 21.
Lictor is only pop 5.
Objections
"Stop fucking with the upkeep." Why not? If it's broke, fix it.
"This will cause more problems." It will probably cause some units to become more or less strong, but it will also help correct many problems, the major ones being 2.9 Warriors, Venom Brood, Autarch, a stale T2 meta of walkers and transports, and expensive T3 infantry that almost never get used. Any problems that do exist can be fixed with req/power changes or stat changes.
"What about upgrades? Do they not make units much better and should they change their upkeep and pop values?" It would be too complicated to add pop and upkeep for upgrades, and considering that most of the units have upgrades available to them, if upgrades are ignored for now it wouldn't make much difference since it affects all factions equally.
"What about squad leaders?" I'll cover these in another post.
It is also important to post it now, before 2.9 is released, as there are two changes to Nid upkeep, namely Raveners and Venom Brood, which will be terrible for the Nid economy. All stats are using patch 2.9 from the beta notes here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gAW ... s=5b74949a
Upkeep
Premise 1. Upkeep is designed to be a catch-up mechanism preventing larger armies from snowballing easily. It acts as a tax on units that reduces available req income in proportion to the strength of the army.
Premise 2. Upkeep has NOTHING to do with ‘asymmetric balance’, ‘flavour’ or ‘comparing units in a vacuum’.
Premise 3. The cost of a unit in req/power is closely related to its strength.
Conclusion 1. For upkeep to be a ”fair and balanced” tax it should be a fixed percentage of the unit’s cost for all units in all factions. Stronger units in the same tier should have more upkeep than weaker units; units of similar strength, and therefore similar cost, should have similar upkeep.
Note1. Upkeep between units in different tiers can’t be compared since the % tax is lower for tier 2 and tier 3. Tier 2 units can be compared to tier 2 units and tier 3 units can be compared to tier 3 units but tier 2 units should not be compared to tier 1 nor tier 3 units.
Note2. Upgrades complicate the matter a little as they increase the cost and strength of units while not changing the upkeep, but can be ignored for now as nearly all units have some possible upgrades available.
Note3. These examples do not use squad leaders and neither do they need to as squad leaders have their own upkeep values.
Tier 1 examples:
Tics (200/0) should have a similar upkeep to Scouts (210/0).
CSM (400/0) should have slightly lower upkeep than Tacs (450/0).
Devs (250/30), Havocs (250/30), Guardian Weapon Teams (250/30) and HWT (250/30) should all have the same upkeep. Lootas (240/30) should also be similar upkeep.
ASM, Raptors and Stormboys should have higher upkeep than Tacs, CSM and Sluggas.
Examples of broken tier 1 upkeep:
Rangers (210/25) have the same upkeep as unupgraded GM (210/0) at 15 upkeep each.
ASM (450/50) and Raptors (400/40) have the same upkeep as Banshees (350/0), Tacs (450/0) and CSM (450/0) at 38 each.
Raveners (400/40) have the same upkeep as unupgraded Sluggas (270/0) at 31 each.
Catachans (350/40) have less upkeep than Sentinels (350/0) at 26 vs 31.
Warriors (300/25) are having their upkeep changed in patch2.9 to 57.
Tier 2 examples:
The best T2 units such as the SM Dread (450/120), CSM Dread (410/120) and Wraithlord (425/100) should have much higher upkeep than weaker T2 units.
The best T2 transports such as the Falcon (360/90) should have higher upkeep than the average transports like the Razorback (280/60) and the Chimera (300/70) and the Wartrukk (200/30) should have the lowest upkeep of the transports.
The worst T2 units should have the lowest T2 upkeep, e.g. Tankbustas, Venom Brood, Storm Troopers.
Examples of broken tier 2 upkeep:
The SM, CSM and GK Dreadnoughts have an upkeep of 38 while Warpspiders have an upkeep of 41, Venom Brood 57 (patch 2.9), Bloodletters 41, Chosen PMs 41, PMs 38, Wraithguard 38.
The Falcon (360/90) has an upkeep of 31 which is the same as PDevs (400/0) Stikkbommas (330/20), Tankbustas (300/0) and only 5 more than the Wartrukk (200/30).
The Autarch (350/50/150red) has an upkeep of only 13.
The consequence of this that that the meta leans towards walkers and transports and away from T2 infantry which is making the game stale imo.
Examples of broken Tier 3 upkeep:
Lictor (400/75) has 26 upkeep and the Neurothrope (400/75) will have 51 upkeep in patch 2.9
Flash Gitz (37 upkeep) Commandos(38 upkeep) compared to GK Paladins (54 upkeep).
Pop Values
Premise1. Pop values are designed to cap the max strength of each army.
Premise2. For pop values to be useful, 100pop of each faction should be approximately equal strength to 100pop of every other faction.
Premise3. Pop values have NOTHING to do with ‘asymmetric balance’, ‘flavour’ or ‘comparing units in a vacuum’.
Conclusion1. Pop values should be proportional to the strength of the units.
Premise4. The cost of a unit represents its strength.
Conclusion2. Pop values should be proportional to the cost of the units.
Conclusion3. For units in the same tier, stronger/more expensive units should have higher pop values than weaker/cheaper units. Units of similar strength should have similar pop values.
Note1. Pop values can only be compared to units in the same tier in the same manner as upkeep and for the same reason.
Note2. It is difficult to get correct pop values for units with multiple models as each model can only have an integer for pop values, e.g. Banshees can only ever really be 10pop (5models x 2pop/model) or 15pop (5models x 3pop/model).
Tier 1 examples:
Set Ups Teams which all cost about the same should have the same pop values.
ASM (450/50) should have higher pop than Tacs(450/0)
Raptors (400/40) should have higher pop than CSM (400/0) and a similar pop to Raveners (400/40).
Stormboyz(350/35) should have a similar pop to Catachans (350/40).
Spotters (280/30) should have a similar pop to Set Up Teams (~250/30)
Noise Marines (350/30) should be similar to Tacs(450/0).
Painboy (350/30) should be similar to other 350/30 units (Catachans, Stormboys)
Rangers (210/25 in patch2.9) should be similar to scouts, heretics and guardsmen.
Examples of broken Tier 1 pop values:
Rangers at pop 6 and Painboy at pop 5 when heretics are pop 8, scouts are pop 9 and hormagaunts and termagaunts are pop 8.
Ravener Brood (400/40) are pop 12 when Tacs, CSM and SS are pop 15.
ASM, Raptors should be more pop than Tacs and CSM but this would increase the pop of SM and CSM too much imo so better to leave them alone.
Banshees are pop 15 but only cost 350/0 while ASM and Raptors are also pop 15.
Catachans pop 10 but Tacs and CSM pop 15.
Spotters pop 9 when Set Ups teams are all pop 12 with the exception of the HWT which is pop 8, which is also broken and should be moved to 12.
Sentinel could go down in pop to 9 but difficult to say with recent patch2.9 changes.
Tier 2:
As with upkeep, the best T2 units should have higher pop values than the average T2 units. This is not the case.
Examples of broken Tier 2 pop values:
SM, CSM and GK dreadnoughts are pop 15. Compare to Bloodletter pop 16, Warpspiders pop 16, Wraithguard pop 15, Venom Brood pop 15, Plague Marines pop 15.
Subcommanders have very low pop: Autarch = 5, Librarian = 5, Vindicare = 5, Weirdboy = 5.
Wraithlord and Falcon are only pop 12. Compare to above infantry.
Wartrukk is pop 10 but is much worse than the Falcon at pop 12. Deff Dread is pop 12 but significantly worse than the Wraithlord at pop 12 also.
Tier 3
Examples of broken Tier 3 pop values:
Non-SHI cost too much pop in comparison to other units. Kasrkin, Kommandos and Interceptors are all pop 15 when Terminators are pop 21.
Lictor is only pop 5.
Objections
"Stop fucking with the upkeep." Why not? If it's broke, fix it.
"This will cause more problems." It will probably cause some units to become more or less strong, but it will also help correct many problems, the major ones being 2.9 Warriors, Venom Brood, Autarch, a stale T2 meta of walkers and transports, and expensive T3 infantry that almost never get used. Any problems that do exist can be fixed with req/power changes or stat changes.
"What about upgrades? Do they not make units much better and should they change their upkeep and pop values?" It would be too complicated to add pop and upkeep for upgrades, and considering that most of the units have upgrades available to them, if upgrades are ignored for now it wouldn't make much difference since it affects all factions equally.
"What about squad leaders?" I'll cover these in another post.