Terminators

[Torpid]

No, you should not be able to counter them with T1-T2 infantry in toe-to-toe fight.
Yes, of course with support they will kick asses but what unit won't?
If 4500 hp/3750 hp squads with super heavy armor and x3 33 heavy melee dps will be broken then what about monsters with 4500 hp of super heavy armor and 3x 70 power melee dps (and we presume that they act defensively)?

Actually you should be able to counter them with t1-t2 infantry in a toe-to-toe fight, because termies, by the very nature of them not being able to retreat are not meant to be dealing with foes toe-to-toe. Treat them similar to a predator, they need support but shine when supported. They are meant to be countered by melee since they will chew up ranged units, just like assault termies are meant to be countered by ranged as they will chew up melee units.

[Ace of Swords]

by the very nature of them not being able to retreat are not meant to be dealing with foes toe-to-toe.

Wrong. The ability to non-retreat exsists to punish overextending, termies shoudl be extremely powerful, but if you exagerate you'll lose them, they aren't meant to lose vs t1 or t2 squads.

[Sub_Zero]

Yes, I meant that. You can have hope to take them down if they are weakened but when they are healthy and you own them then it is wrong. And if they are being too overzealous and used their teleport offensively then that will be a 100% chance to wipe them since their speed is 4. And I would not say that they own ranged squads that badly. Usually it is enough to lower their health and thus force them to go to the base if you have good anti heavy infantry squads.

[Torpid]

by the very nature of them not being able to retreat are not meant to be dealing with foes toe-to-toe.

Wrong. The ability to non-retreat exsists to punish overextending, termies shoudl be extremely powerful, but if you exagerate you'll lose them, they aren't meant to lose vs t1 or t2 squads.

I disagree. Slugga boyz perform just as well (or poorly) vs terminators as tankbustas do vs predators. If you focus fire them on approach, teleport away, shoot them more and then fight in melee the sluggas are not going to beat you without level 4. Similarly, tankbustas won't beat a predator in a 1v1 fight unless they are levelled, despite them costing less and being from a lower tier they seem to effectively counter preds, but this is because these units are designed to be based on support. This is why the SM t3 - which is very much based on support, is generally a bad choice unless you are already ahead with a strong eco and good composition, but if you are in that scenario the SM t3 pretty much ends the game instantly, now the chaos t3 can do the same, which is nice since their t2 got nerfed.

[xerrol nanoha]

I'm starting to agree that assault cannons in general are not quite as killy as the autocannon (for terminators or dreadnoughts), although I'm unsure what to do about it, I thought about improving their suppression to make them more distinct from autocannons, but that phases out flamer weapons for dreadnoughts and terminators. So idk. we'll come up with something!

[Sub_Zero]

Terminators having no melee resistance aura just can't go for flamers. They either focus fired by plasma or caught in melee while trying to close in to burn enemies. Adding this aura will help them greatly to use this weapon and I don't think really why they should not have it.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

because it gives them 40% more health (tired, not sure i'm doing the math right) against melee squads which are their counter and many of which cap out at 2k hp. now maybe it would be ok for them to have it but that's the reasoning.

[Sub_Zero]

The key here is that terminators are very slow and can't properly retreat. Only teleport away. And that is a balancing factor. And they have x3 33 heavy melee dps. Power melee squads will bring terminators' health to a very low level and either will retreat if the fight is not going in their favour or will kill them. I see nothing unbalanced here. If terminators win they will have to slowly walk to the base.

[Dark Riku]

... now the chaos t3 can do the same, which is nice since their t2 got nerfed.

How is their T2 any weaker? Yes Bloodletters aren't as stupidly OP anymore since they don't shred apart vehicles anymore although they still do a very good job against them with their high power melee DPS and are way better vs troops now.
While in the meantime their dedicated AV squads were buffed in their roles.
In what possible way is Chaos T2 nerfed?

[Bahamut]

is their T2 any weaker? Yes Bloodletters aren't as stupidly OP anymore since they don't shred apart vehicles anymore although they still do a very good job against them with their high power melee DPS and are way better vs troops now.
While in the meantime their dedicated AV squads were buffed in their roles.
In what possible way is Chaos T2 nerfed?

Plague marine's snare is alot better in elite and Havoc autocannon got quite the buff recently too

I guess torpid is referring to all those broken OP t2 things chaos had in retail.. like bloodlust and plague marine's death explosion.

[Torpid]

I'm referring to the obvious case that the retail chaos t2 can deal with other race's t3s far easier than the current chaos t2 in elite can. There's loads of reasons why - letters and PMs both being more generalist, MoK being cheaper, ACs being cheaper, AOE abilities such as LTGB and cloud being so much stronger, etc.

[Bahamut]

Because retail chaos t2 is retarded OP in retail tho, not because they "needed it". Let's compare IG in retail, catachans are retarded OP in retail just cause, not to account how retarded UP IG t3 is in retail. Or zoanthropes for nids, they are just OP in retail

[Nurland]

I think Tdread accuracy or fotm accuracy got reduced in Elite. Correct me if I am wrong.

But yeah. Chaos T2 is not as strong against other faction's T3s as it used to be. I don't think it has lost any of its usefulness against T2s though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sub_Zero]

Terminators, guys. What about to make them more viable melee fighters?

[Torpid]

You mean ranged terminators?

[Sub_Zero]

Of course I do =) I suggested a buff for them. Wrote that again to bring you back to the topic.

[Torpid]

We already discussed why making them better at melee is a bad idea, that's why the discussion has moved on.

[Sub_Zero]

I would not call that a discussion. There were no enough opinions.

In this game there is such an interesting unit existing. Chaos marines with mark of Tzeentch. They have insane ranged damage and they are supposed to be countered by melee units. But they do have melee resistance for some reason. If melee resistance aura of tactical marines is reasonable due to lack of melee units in SM roster and they are not such a hard hitting ranged squad then why tzeentch marines posses it is a mystery for me (and have more damage in melee than tacs, btw). According to this logic why can't we give melee resistance aura to a squad with no retreat option, low melee dps and low speed. And it does sound like an absurd when elite troops clad in super armor die so easily to melee units (I exaggerate a bit but after a fight with melee units they have nothing but retreat). They are basically tzeentch marines 2.0(do more damage against all targets)/tactical marines 2.0 (can upgrade to anti-garrison weapon/anti-vehicle option). And you get them only in T3, for 350 red and big amount of resources.

[crazyman64335]

not sure if i mentioned this or not, but how about looking into reducing SM Terminator teleport (exclusive to SM terms)?

[Sub_Zero]

Do you suggest a nerf? Or did you mistake writting your post? If you did not then it seems really strange for me without any explanation.

[Faultron]

he means reducing teleport cooldown, for a buff

[Sub_Zero]

Oh, the first thing that came into my mind had been range reducing. Gotta clarify details.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Should receive the Inspiration effect a bit rework? The damage increase is fine IMHO but the Suppression Resistance seems more situacional, from a meta game when weapons do more suppression damage.

[Sub_Zero]

Supression resistance bonus is just a joke. Of course it should be replaced with something more useful.

[Broodwich]

Not really, if anything is under suppression a term kill will unsuppress it immediately, and prevent suppression for a bit too, even when under direct fire. Keeping your ranged blob firing

[Sub_Zero]

It has never come into play for me. SM don't have problems with supression at all.

[[TLV]Soul_Drinkers]

I honestlu dont understand why u would think ranged termies need a melee buff theyre terminatora for christ sake. Learn to micro properly and stop over extending ur terms then blaming the game for balance simple. Terminators are perfectly fine and need no changes. U players need some changes in ur micro and macro management. L2p and stop buying terms every game then blaming the balance when things dont pan out for u well.

[Sub_Zero]

<CENSORED>
And now I would ask you not to tell people what to do since you don't know about players you are talking to. Don't like the idea? Tell your opinion about the matter and please don't touch any player. I see you complain about flamers, huh? Say the same thing to yourself about improved micro/macro/facro/dicro management.

[Torpid]

Little bit harder to avoid getting burnt by tac flamers when in t1 tacs are extremely hard to kill as IG, an army with no melee and only the weak piercing dps vs tacs in t1, on top of that you have to deal with all the suppression and potentially some ASM, it's much tougher than not allowing termies to get in melee with dedicated melee squads. Probably mainly because IG have to fight tac flamers and there is no obvious counter (you can use stomp but then devs can easily kill you, as can snipers, plus you're setting yourself back meaning he can get more devs and then you have no stomp to deal with the ASM) whereas as SM you never HAVE to get termies and it's your fault for getting them in a situation where they suck.

[Bahamut]

you mean SM has a chance to beat IG in t1? HERESY!