Whirlwind Idea

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Paranoid Kamikaze
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Whirlwind Idea

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Thu 20 Sep, 2018 5:22 am

So I was trying to think of ways to buff the Whirlwind to make it viable and came upon an idea and would like opinions on it. The idea being to make the first missile to be guaranteed to hit the center of where you're aiming. The reason being that the missiles are too random to be reliable. Since it's not reliable it can't be used properly and is only good in a large messy team fight. The missiles are so unreliable I had a game once where it took 3 volleys before it finally hit the setup team it was aiming at.
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Re: Whirlwind Idea

Postby Atlas » Thu 20 Sep, 2018 7:35 am

That would definitely improve it's reliability, but I thought people were in the nerf/rework mood for the unit. Still, I always dig reliability!
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Re: Whirlwind Idea

Postby Zeno » Thu 20 Sep, 2018 12:15 pm

People were complaining about it being OP after the Korean team used Whirlwinds to demolish everyone else in that 3v3 tournament with all the prize money. This mod is supposed to be balanced around 1v1 though.
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Black Relic
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Re: Whirlwind Idea

Postby Black Relic » Thu 20 Sep, 2018 2:01 pm

Well yea but in 1v1 is pretty pathetic imo.

Just make to 3 volleys with two missiles with decent accuracy and maybe even slightly faster projectile speed. With 3-4 seconds between each volley. And a 8 second reload time. That way is only does mass KB if the enemy is blobed up and it can effectively change target based on a player's priority.

Imo one reason why it was bad in 1v1 for the most part is because of it would fire everything on one squad for the most part and with the large spread on the weapon it would always hit the target (although not flush all the time).
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Re: Whirlwind Idea

Postby Torpid » Thu 20 Sep, 2018 5:03 pm

The manticore is pretty rarely used in 1v1 as well, shit even Pdevs are, but I certainly don't think any of the 3 units need a buff. They're all OP in 3v3 and in 1v1 they do their niche role really well, it's just a niche role there since 1v1 tends to be far less static.
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Broodwich
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Re: Whirlwind Idea

Postby Broodwich » Thu 20 Sep, 2018 6:44 pm

Reduce to one volley with solid accuracy, reduce the kb a bit, and increase the damage a little bit. That way you get reliability and stop the 3v3 retardation where it saturates an entire lane with massive kb. Might get some use out of it in that case
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Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Whirlwind Idea

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Thu 20 Sep, 2018 7:11 pm

Cap it to 1 if it's a problem in team games
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Re: Whirlwind Idea

Postby Impregnable » Thu 20 Sep, 2018 11:42 pm

- Nerf or Rework of WW needs to look at below aspects. The problem with WW in 3v3 stems out from being able to ALL OF THE BELOW which NO OTHER UNIT IN GAME can do all at once. By removing or changing a number of factors below, you can nerf or rework it properly. For comparison reasons, I put artillery type units that can do the same or similar role in blankets. Through this, you will be able to see that no other unit can do ALL OF BELOW.

1. long range (ArtySpotter, Manticore, Pdev, BMNoise, D Cannon, Stikkbommas, Fire Prism)
2. Wide disruption with non ability default attacks (NONE)
3. Constant disruption with non ability default attacks (Pdev, BMNoise, Weird Boy, Fire Prism)
4. with no friendly fire or knockback - Results in being able to use it against melee blobs on top of your or ally's units (NONE)
5. with fast enough speed to re position quickly without set up time (Stikkbommas, Zoanthrope, Weirdboy, ArtySpotter, Fire Prism)
6. have a decent chance of micro to save itself without retreating (Weird Boy, Stikkbommas, ArtySpotter, Fire Prism)
7. has a chance to damage vehicles on very long range (Pdev, BMNoise, Manticore, Fire Prism)
8. It is a vehicle (Manticore, Fire Prism)

- As crazy as it sounds, when compared this way, the closest thing we have to what WW do is Fire Prism. However, it is a T3 unit, cost wise incomparably expensive and do friendly knockbacks and CANNOT widely disrupt which is the reason why we rarely see anyone calling it blatantly OP.
- Each Arty unit has its pros and cons. If you can do long range disruption, you sacrifice mobility and self defense capability. If you get mobility and self defense capability you sacrifice long range and some fire power. If you have both long range and mobility like Stikkbomma and Fire Prism, it is penalized by being only able to do such attacks by using abilities ONLY or is T3 and being very expensive.
- The problem with WW is it has no cons. Major flaws it has on 1v1 which are that its attacks are inaccurate and it has niche usage are both gone under 3v3 condition. On top of that, it has 2 things that no other arty unit can do. Wide disruption with non ability default attacks(in case of this one literally no other unit in dow2 can do it), and not doing any friendly fire despite being an arty unit.

Conclusion
- Firstly, WW shouldn't be able to do 2 and 4. No other units can do it and for it to have those 2 aspects exclusively, we better have a good justification on why it is the only unit that can do both.

- Secondly, WW must not have all 4 major arty traits. We must remember that only unit we have that can do all 4 of below is Fire Prism which is heavily penalized by high cost and is locked on T3. I listed possible nerfs on each aspect.
1) Long Range
- Shorter Range
2) Constant non ability disruption
- Changing attack into ability only
- Reduce fire rate
- Reduce knockback area of effect
3) Mobility, No set up
- Slower speed and turn rate
- Requires set up like chimera base
- Requires Set up like Set up Teams
4) Self Defense Chance(including the issue of 400hp vehicle armor on a T2 arty unit)
- Erase anti vehicle missile ability
- Increase minimum range for attacks
- Reduce HP
- Increase turret turn rate
- Mobility nerfs as posted above at 3)
- Constant disruption nerfs as posted above at 2)
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Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Whirlwind Idea

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 3:02 am

The problem with Whirlwinds in 1v1 is it doesn't cause model losses, cap, stop caps or do damage. And it dies easily because it's slow and has no defensive ability. All it does is disrupt, which would be great if it was reliable.
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Re: Whirlwind Idea

Postby Impregnable » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 10:44 am

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:The problem with Whirlwinds in 1v1 is it doesn't cause model losses, cap, stop caps or do damage. And it dies easily because it's slow and has no defensive ability. All it does is disrupt, which would be great if it was reliable.

And when you have limited number of squads you can field, such a unit cannot be fitted into the roster

Do you know what is current meta problems of SM or which build is way too popular to be used most of the times in 1v1? If we do not know those two, WW cannot be reworked to be useful in 1v1 while over-performing in 3v3 due to reasons I stated above.
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Paranoid Kamikaze
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Re: Whirlwind Idea

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 7:21 pm

Impregnable wrote:
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:The problem with Whirlwinds in 1v1 is it doesn't cause model losses, cap, stop caps or do damage. And it dies easily because it's slow and has no defensive ability. All it does is disrupt, which would be great if it was reliable.

And when you have limited number of squads you can field, such a unit cannot be fitted into the roster

Do you know what is current meta problems of SM or which build is way too popular to be used most of the times in 1v1? If we do not know those two, WW cannot be reworked to be useful in 1v1 while over-performing in 3v3 due to reasons I stated above.


I never read your above post because it was too long and it tried to compare a unit across different races, which makes no sense. The Whirlwind is good in 1v1's against Orks, IG and Tyranids. The only problem I found is that it's unreliable so it's not effective in 1v1's.
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Re: Whirlwind Idea

Postby Dark Riku » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 8:56 pm

Impregnable wrote:- Nerf or Rework of WW needs to look at below aspects. ...
You start right away with saying that the WW is a problem in 3v3 while imo it is not.
Your list is not useful* imo and incomplete. For example, the zoanthrope doesn't do friendly fire either.
* Different units do different things, that's the idea of non symmetrical balance.


Impregnable wrote:The problem with WW is it has no cons. ...
Whut? :p Vehicles will still counter a WW. The correct AV squads will still wreck a WW while it definitely can't defend against those by itself due to it's slow speed and slow turret rotation. For example: melta stormtroopers, jump AV squads, etc. A lascannon or nobs shouldn't work as the WW is supposed to disrupt those from afar.

The WW is already pretty useless in 1v1 and is only somewhat viable in 3v3.
Let's not make it completely useless in all game modes please?
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Black Relic
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Re: Whirlwind Idea

Postby Black Relic » Fri 21 Sep, 2018 9:30 pm

Actually Impreg's comparison made complete sense and maybe why you didn't understand is because you didn't read it. If you want to talk and have a discussion it is polite to read another persons argument or input regardless of length, especially if you are the person who brought up the topic in the first place.

Impreg was mentioning the reasons you get those other units for KB or slight AV potential but also briefly mentioning what other units weapons do. Normally it would be wrong to compare units and what they do for their roles but he was not doing actual comparison on the units but on how their weapon functions. Now i do think it comparisons are slightly exaggerated and some units imo should not be there at all such as Stikkbombas, Artillery Spotters, the Weird Boy and Fire Prism (but i do understand why it was mentioned). And some points he made imo didn't need to be there.

But he was going toward the correct direction by mentioning similar units weapon design and indirectly mentioning their "weaknesses" and mentioning that the whirlwind's weapon does all of these things that the other units that are similar cannot do. Plus I do not find comparing artillery units (in which their roles is not only self-explanatory but also they all do the function but slightly differently) is that bad.

If it was comparing the units in their entirety it would be wrong do to different costs, upgrades etc.

I will say i do not agree that the WW has no cons though. It is still slow and the WW does not counter vehicles it self. In 1v1 its niche and extremely hard to use because on mass KB does not make it pay for itself because it causes no bleed. If you are dropping models and not bleeding the enemy when you have a whirlwind then the purchase is not working. Because you are not getting ahead of XP, or damaging your enemies eco enough to justify the WW purchase. The WW is good in 3v3 due to your allies doing the damage you are not.
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Re: Whirlwind Idea

Postby boss » Sun 23 Sep, 2018 6:58 pm

Whirlwind op

Image




I really don't understand all this need to nerf it cos 1 3v3 team used it, on a unit that needs other units for it to have an effect and it not even cheap too.
This is all learn to play stuff probably cos no one ever got it before.
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