Future balance direction
- Adeptus Noobus
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Future balance direction
Considering the direction the dev team has taken in the past, I believe this question is in order. The team made it known that they want the mod to be more accessible to a broader audience, lowering barriers, skill requirements and improve the fun factor. Since this game is only played on a competitive level in 1v1s, the question and eventually its answer will have broad implications for the future direction this mod should/will take.
Re: Future balance direction
I'll just speak for myself but I don't think it's a one-or-the-other on teams vs 1s. The primary team change, changing how auras behave, is pretty much an only-team-game change and won't really affect 1s in any real way. In that sense, I think it's fine as changes have very rarely touched on team game balance and the balance priority has always been 1s.
Speaking from the tech team angle, it's always about making things more reliable, more consistent and working better. The more reliably things work, the easier it is to expect a result and thus balance it. On top of that there's the whole anti-frustration part of it. If this game was like Starcraft or something this wouldn't matter as much. But Dawn of War II games are so fragile where even just 1 ability can swing engagements and influence matches. Dammit, they better work right then!
I consider the current state of game balance to be mostly alright, with some typical Eldar issues and OM still needing refinement. So yes, at this point the priority should be to make this game run as smoothly as possible. I think a consistent game is a funner and healthier game and if unit/ability/interaction responsiveness improvements cause problems then we should balance them afterwards rather than prevent improvements because it threatens to imbalance something. I think the former end result is better than the latter.
But that's jmo on the matter of where the focus should be.
Speaking from the tech team angle, it's always about making things more reliable, more consistent and working better. The more reliably things work, the easier it is to expect a result and thus balance it. On top of that there's the whole anti-frustration part of it. If this game was like Starcraft or something this wouldn't matter as much. But Dawn of War II games are so fragile where even just 1 ability can swing engagements and influence matches. Dammit, they better work right then!
I consider the current state of game balance to be mostly alright, with some typical Eldar issues and OM still needing refinement. So yes, at this point the priority should be to make this game run as smoothly as possible. I think a consistent game is a funner and healthier game and if unit/ability/interaction responsiveness improvements cause problems then we should balance them afterwards rather than prevent improvements because it threatens to imbalance something. I think the former end result is better than the latter.
But that's jmo on the matter of where the focus should be.
- ShowMeMagik
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Re: Future balance direction
Going on from what Atlas said, how imbalanced is the game? It feels like we are changing so much then changing something else to compensate and so on. Sure minor tweaks would be better than massive cross the board changes. Its never going to be perfect
Re: Future balance direction
I do not even play 1v1 and I think it ought to be designed around 1v1. 3v3 is mostly mindless blob throwing and there is also the possibility for a player who is losing their lane to be bailed out by teammates - making up to some extent for imbalances in certain matchups; this is not the case in 1v1, where slight imbalances in certain matchups are going to be much more consequential.
Also, this mod was made by and for a small cadre of elite 1v1 players from DOW2 as far as I can tell - it ought to stay that way.
Also, this mod was made by and for a small cadre of elite 1v1 players from DOW2 as far as I can tell - it ought to stay that way.
- TE | NoSkill
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Re: Future balance direction
ShowMeMagik wrote:Going on from what Atlas said, how imbalanced is the game? It feels like we are changing so much then changing something else to compensate and so on. Sure minor tweaks would be better than massive cross the board changes. Its never going to be perfect
Thisss!
- TE | NoSkill
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Re: Future balance direction
It is no problem for me, that this game is mainly balanced around 1v1;
My problem is, that some folks don t want to understand things can work in 1v1 AND 3v3 AND be balanced.
Not all ofc, but some can (like Curse of Tzeentch not doing retreat dmg is a lot better then before, as misplays are amplified in 3v3´s by the extra players.
So at max, I would suggest 2v2, coz that s not so big like 3v3 but you have teamwork to count for. The mix of 2 basically.
My problem is, that some folks don t want to understand things can work in 1v1 AND 3v3 AND be balanced.
Not all ofc, but some can (like Curse of Tzeentch not doing retreat dmg is a lot better then before, as misplays are amplified in 3v3´s by the extra players.
So at max, I would suggest 2v2, coz that s not so big like 3v3 but you have teamwork to count for. The mix of 2 basically.
Re: Future balance direction
but many of people if even not most players play the 3v3s and is very popular, most of indrid casts are 3v3s as well.
- SinisterLaugh
- Posts: 81
- Joined: Thu 16 Jul, 2015 8:58 pm
Re: Future balance direction
I voted for 1v1. For me the main FUN-factor of this mod is that it brings new stuff to an old WH40k game AND at the same time is intended to keep things balanced (as far as possible)) and interesting for competitive play.
Team games are good ofc, but 2v2s are better when you have a permanent team and a team to fight against, not just two random guys.
The same is true for 3v3s. How often do you play 3v3 with the same allies, apart from rare tournaments? And most important - how often do you play against serious teams, not just stack of good individual players? Yea, throw your blob of units against the opponent`s blob is fun, but unfortunately there are very few opportunities for different strategies (which is the important fun-factor, imo).
Completely agree with Atlas here.
Also, some rework on how buffs work on allies and similar stuff, could be the main direction for evolving 2v2 and 3v3 modes.
Team games are good ofc, but 2v2s are better when you have a permanent team and a team to fight against, not just two random guys.
The same is true for 3v3s. How often do you play 3v3 with the same allies, apart from rare tournaments? And most important - how often do you play against serious teams, not just stack of good individual players? Yea, throw your blob of units against the opponent`s blob is fun, but unfortunately there are very few opportunities for different strategies (which is the important fun-factor, imo).
I'll just speak for myself but I don't think it's a one-or-the-other on teams vs 1s. The primary team change, changing how auras behave, is pretty much an only-team-game change and won't really affect 1s in any real way. In that sense, I think it's fine as changes have very rarely touched on team game balance and the balance priority has always been 1s.
Completely agree with Atlas here.
Also, some rework on how buffs work on allies and similar stuff, could be the main direction for evolving 2v2 and 3v3 modes.
When life gives you Lemans...
Re: Future balance direction
not even to entertain such a stupid poll.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
- Adeptus Noobus
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Re: Future balance direction
Torpid wrote:not even to entertain such a stupid poll.
I was actually dead-serious.
Re: Future balance direction
Torpid wrote:not even to entertain such a stupid poll.
Except with this post. Paradox much.
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Re: Future balance direction
Should be balanced around 1v1 obviously. The only factors around team games that need to be looked at are large AoE attacks and buffs/debuffs that affect multiple units in an area.
- Black Relic
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Re: Future balance direction
The only AoE buffs that should be change to only affect certain factions imo that are on the same team which is possible. They are the following
Ork Waaagh Banners and the frazzle ability, sacred standard, Ava, seer council and Alturd auras. "None shall not fall" being a IG thing. If zon aura affect other armies then that should be changed to only nid faction and that's pretty much it since Chaos Buffs only affect the player for the most part except the sorc's Demonic orb thingy.
But mod should be balanced primarily around 1v1. Everyone has said it before. You cannot attempt to balance a game for 3v3 without balancing 1v1 first.
But I do think we can add new stuff. Specifically heroes imo which ideas are needed.
I am thinking about going into keybindings (maybe can make some ability binded to the global bar that every player cannot see and does not show up on the bar itself) to see if it is possible to make icon appear on the screen and not the mini map. Sort of like a ping on the screen as you play in a team game to let your allies know something weither it is focus fire, pat attention, reposition etc. Would breath new life into the game.
I think Alt-Left Mouse button would work.
Ork Waaagh Banners and the frazzle ability, sacred standard, Ava, seer council and Alturd auras. "None shall not fall" being a IG thing. If zon aura affect other armies then that should be changed to only nid faction and that's pretty much it since Chaos Buffs only affect the player for the most part except the sorc's Demonic orb thingy.
But mod should be balanced primarily around 1v1. Everyone has said it before. You cannot attempt to balance a game for 3v3 without balancing 1v1 first.
But I do think we can add new stuff. Specifically heroes imo which ideas are needed.
I am thinking about going into keybindings (maybe can make some ability binded to the global bar that every player cannot see and does not show up on the bar itself) to see if it is possible to make icon appear on the screen and not the mini map. Sort of like a ping on the screen as you play in a team game to let your allies know something weither it is focus fire, pat attention, reposition etc. Would breath new life into the game.
I think Alt-Left Mouse button would work.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
Re: Future balance direction
Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:Should be balanced around 1v1 obviously. The only factors around team games that need to be looked at are large AoE attacks and buffs/debuffs that affect multiple units in an area.
Which is exactly the direction that pretty much all of the high level playerbase agrees on and is being taken by cyris and the dev team. Which btw, from the changelog that was publically released, was quite easy to see, thus making this thread pointless.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!
Re: Future balance direction
This mod should never do changes based of 3v3 or 2v2 cos you can never balance them and never will so don't even waste your time on it.
All this aura shit been in the game since dawn of war 2 and no one ever made a big thing about it maybe from time to time one cry's about it then they shut up after a day, now remove anybuff from the game that affect allies is retarded
1 it shut down team work from team games which unless I missed the whole point team games is all about team work and auras and buffs are apart of that so nerf teams games and turn them into 3 1v1s great.
2 Why would you start messing with something that's already working fine and has been for years?
3 And last there way more important stuff to look at atm to make this mod take steps forward instead of backwards
This cyris first changlog most of the changes seem to come from 3v3 stuff or 1 person crying about something and somehow made it into the log screw balance most of the other stuff is random and makes litte sense.
Worst change log I've seen In a long time, this poll hopeful will make the devs ones with a brain think about the right changers for once
All this aura shit been in the game since dawn of war 2 and no one ever made a big thing about it maybe from time to time one cry's about it then they shut up after a day, now remove anybuff from the game that affect allies is retarded
1 it shut down team work from team games which unless I missed the whole point team games is all about team work and auras and buffs are apart of that so nerf teams games and turn them into 3 1v1s great.
2 Why would you start messing with something that's already working fine and has been for years?
3 And last there way more important stuff to look at atm to make this mod take steps forward instead of backwards
This cyris first changlog most of the changes seem to come from 3v3 stuff or 1 person crying about something and somehow made it into the log screw balance most of the other stuff is random and makes litte sense.
Worst change log I've seen In a long time, this poll hopeful will make the devs ones with a brain think about the right changers for once
Forums great more stuff to talk about.
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