IG T3

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Telos
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IG T3

Postby Telos » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 9:25 am

I noticed that the 2.9 balance roadmap has a lot of changes targeting IG.

I actually think IG is mostly ok, they have poor MU's and can behave a bit wonky with such high unit-count squads but that's the way of the game. (In fact I think the Leman's Vanq cannon accuracy against infantry could do with some scaling back)

I do think they have a particular issue though that most other races don't deal with, and that's dealing with dedicated melee units, particularly those encountered from T3.

I think we've all seen it in various games, IG may start strong but isn't able to strike the killing blow even though they may do quite well in the early game. The game draws out and the enemy is able to field their T3 heavy melee units, or field enough melee that the IG player doesn't have enough crowd control to counter them all.

I feel that IG has very few options for dealing with this late in the game besides withdrawing while focusing the melee squad in question which is more often easier said than done. And if the IG player was foolish enough to field a baneblade when their enemy fields (Nobz / Termies / GUO / SL / Ava / Paladins) it either has to stay far enough back that its impact is diminished or just cry because it's too large and slow to get away. I understand this is somewhat the design of the guard, and if you're the Inq you have some control options, but that seems really limiting.

I know that Kasrkin GL were largely meant to fill this role, but many of these units are so fast (or immune to knockback) that it doesn't seem really effective. Of course the IG player should "play better" but they often seem to have to play A LOT better to deal with it, whether that's through a strategic withdrawal (falling back without retreating) or using the CC at their disposal (many involving key positioning because of IG fragility or skill shots). I feel like they should have a greater number of options for dealing with units that are such a key aspect of the game.

So here were some of the ideas I had (and I'm not saying all or any of them are necessarily the solution):

- Give them Bullgryns: Either independent unit or as a T3 Ogryn upgrade. It's fluffy and it would give them a dedicated a strong melee unit to answer melee used against them. However I understand that modeling such a unit could be difficult/impossible so this option is remote.
OR
- Give Lemans a shotgun shell. A very-short range blast that's the same as shotgun blast (except shorter range) but effective against heavy infantry. It could be balanced by making each use cost req/power so the IG player has to be very strategic with its use and still keep it unique from other tanks, but not sure how difficult this would be to implement.
OR
-Give the Baneblade a melee resistance aura. Now hear me out! I know only melee units tend to have this but I think it could be justified for several reasons.
  • Fluff: Baneblades are some of the toughest vehicles in the universe and are often in the vanguard of an Imperial force. It makes sense that they'd be strong enough to withstand enemies even in melee range.
  • Comparative Utility: Other elite units ALL have options against units that get into melee range, some of them multiple options (Ava has doom, Fire Prism is fast and has knockback with every attack, GUO has vomit and stomp, Phobos has dirge, SL has blade has blade flurry and chitin, BW can run over units that try to get too close, LR has frag assault). The Baneblade's option is basically don't let them get into melee and suppression (although by T3 there are numerous ways to overcome suppression). And if they do get into melee all you can do is pray your IG force is strong enough to force off the melee units while also fighting off whatever other units the opponent is fielding.
  • Counterplay: this doesn't make the Baneblade any less vulnerable to dedicated AV units, hell not even against most elite melee units. It just makes using dedicated melee units less of an option against the BB, so instead of having a unit that is effective against everything IG fields maybe they have to field AV units if they weren't already.
  • Ease: Not sure how easy this would be to implement, but it seems easier than the other ideas I presented.

Another option: The Inq is already the best CC specialist for IG (possibly best in the game), so give the Commie and General some love.

Make Inspire Terror stun the squad and remove the ability to halt enemy retreats (if it's still there? I'm not sure), seems like an ability called "Inspire Terror" naturally would have an effect similar to a stun in an enemy unit. Also, change one of the General's ability's to provide CC. For example remove the damage buff from Incoming! and instead give units affected a small percent chance to knockback enemies hit. You might say that a lasgun wouldn't have the ballistic ability to knock something back, but actually a laser powerful enough to penetrate the flesh of a target would have a far greater ballistic impact than a bullet. But for simplicity, just say they're shooting the legs and making them trip. I think having a few CC options like this on the other IG heroes make them far more viable when elite melee hits the field.

I'm not going to assert that these are the best options, but it seems that this is a big contributing factor to IG's falling off in late-game and would at least give them as many options as other races have.
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Re: IG T3

Postby Nurland » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 9:52 am

Are you talking about 1v1 or 2v2/3v3 game modes?

Executioner Leman btw rapes all melee squads in the game. BB is meant to be vulnerable to late game heavy melee units.

The inspire terror you suggest would be kinda broken. It already gives massive damage debuff to the squad and does great damage.

Also Guardsmen are meant to be countered by melee, not the other way around. You can always get a late game HWT or use Catas if you feel like you are being overrun by melee. Also as mentioned before, excecutioner Leman. Bionic Eye Catas/Ogs are not a joke even in late game.

LG is the one who struggles the most against melee later on in the game I feel like so he is slightly trickier and needs to rely more on units than wargear to counter melee threats.
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Re: IG T3

Postby Telos » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 10:14 am

It was my understanding that all balance is with 1v1 in mind? Anyway, that's what I was thinking.

Is BB meant to be vulnerable to heavy melee? I wonder at the reasoning behind that since everything IG fields is vulnerable to melee... As it stands it just kind of isn't a good option if the enemy can field a strong melee option, and that's really most races... Like you said, the Leman Russ is just a better option, but still suffers if you're unable to keep melee from closing in (but that's more of a problem with its pathing imo and I guess there's no easy fix for that).

For Inspire Terror, I don't really see how it's more broken than other point and click stuns? It really depends on the length of the stun. Almost every hero has some sort of strong CC. The damage debuff could be removed since stun generally occupies the same purpose of a damage debuff and is easier to notice on your squad. It can be frustrating for your units to be underperforming if you don't notice the debuff aura on the squad and not know why exactly until you inspect the commisar wargear. But sure, the Commisar still has Lead by Example which isn't as good of CC as other heroes but at least it's something. What CC options does the General have?
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Re: IG T3

Postby Nurland » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 12:17 pm

Well doing 300 damage on the model of your choosing with no warning is kinda semi good. I suppose you could reduce the damage to something nominal if you make it stun the squad but 300 damage + stun sounds kinda broken.

Yes BB is countered by heavy melee. It kinda outshoots all other tanks and can even deal with set ups in some occanions.

IG in general is more vulnerable to melee since they outshoot more or less every single faction in the game. And T1 melee is generally pretty bad against them as well. T2 onwards melee is more their weakness.

If you cannot prevent Nobz from closing in on a Leman then it is purely a micro issue. And yes. Lemans are better against melee than BB. BB helps you fortify positions and make them nightmare to push into (ie. camping a vp). You can always go for a late game HWT or if you have your Catas alive, they will help you a lot against melee threats.
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Re: IG T3

Postby Telos » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 1:01 pm

Nurland wrote:Well doing 300 damage on the model of your choosing with no warning is kinda semi good. I suppose you could reduce the damage to something nominal if you make it stun the squad but 300 damage + stun sounds kinda broken.

Of course the damage could also be adjusted. It's just one possible route, but the only ability on the Commisar that intuitively makes sense to offer some sort of CC imo. But I think you're generally right that the General has bigger issues with that than the Commie and Inq.

Nurland wrote:Yes BB is countered by heavy melee. It kinda outshoots all other tanks and can even deal with set ups in some occanions.

I feel like this really limits its viability in competitive play though. Leman's ALSO kinda outshoot all other tanks in the game, when would you say it's better to get a BB rather than a Leman slightly earlier and a second Leman slightly later? I think it's really too bad that BB sees so little play in competitive games and when it does the inevitable conclusion is "He should've gotten Lemans..."
Making 1 IG unit that's only available at the end of the game capable of standing up to melee a bit longer (and that's all my suggestion would really offer, it doesn't even guarantee a better performance if it isn't supported) doesn't strike me as that big of an ask. And if nothing else, your opponent would feel the need to build some dedicated AV rather than doubling down on those Nobz or Dreds.

Nurland wrote:IG in general is more vulnerable to melee since they outshoot more or less every single faction in the game. And T1 melee is generally pretty bad against them as well. T2 onwards melee is more their weakness.


This strikes me as rather bad design though because they really have so few options against melee after T2 and it doesn't really get any better. It seems like it's bad to the point that if they don't absolutely dominate in T1 then they really have little chance to pull it back. Maybe if their opponent makes a major error, or major tactical error.

Nurland wrote:If you cannot prevent Nobz from closing in on a Leman then it is purely a micro issue. And yes. Lemans are better against melee than BB. BB helps you fortify positions and make them nightmare to push into (ie. camping a vp). You can always go for a late game HWT or if you have your Catas alive, they will help you a lot against melee threats.


Nobz not being able to close with a Leman? Ignoring the head-exploding frustration of trying to path a tank in DoW2... Nobz in transport? Hide da boyz? Over 'dere? Fasta Cybork Implants? I understand what you're saying in principle but I think that's a bad example. If you can't catch an IG vehicle as Orks (and you're specifically trying to catch that vehicle) or you can't drive them all the way off the battlefield then you shouldn't be playing them imo. They have no shortage of tools to get into melee range.

Suppression becomes much less of a factor come T3 imo because there are so many abilities that counter or outright ignore it. Definitely Catas are a must tho, fo sho. But that's a T1 unit that offers a knockback (and one of the few CC abilities that IG can field), not to mention that they take a lot of micro to use effectively and can be easily driven off the field with even moderate focus fire.
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Re: IG T3

Postby Nurland » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 2:32 pm

That is why you don't lead with catas especially in later game.

Over dere is s good support ability to help Nobz but still your tank should be able to kite them while you blast them to bits.

And yes, Lemans are more versatile than BB. BB being the more niche purchase out of the two. Worth to note though that a single BB isn't really much more expensive than an upgraded Leman.

Kinda the same goes for Land Raiders, you rarely see them because faster, manouverable units are usually more desirable. But properly supported Land Raider (or a BB) is a very potent unit.

Suppression is still useful in the late game. Completely negating Nobz once they run out of frenzy is a pretty nice thing to have.

Also I remember seeimg Ogryns used very well against Nobz. Disrupting them (while using support abilities on Ogs) while they get pew pewed.
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Re: IG T3

Postby Telos » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 3:26 pm

Nurland wrote:That is why you don't lead with catas especially in later game.


All reliable from a distance then they have to get close to shotgun blast, well within range of shootas but after they've used those abilities there's not much reason to not retreat them.

Nurland wrote:Over dere is s good support ability to help Nobz but still your tank should be able to kite them while you blast them to bits.


"Should" being the operative word here because as I'm sure we've all experienced there are countless occasions where your tank will spontaneously change direction or stop or try to turn due to pathing or run into your own units and get stuck. All the Nobz need is for it to stop briefly and it's dead. All your plas GM and Catas and Ogryns will need to focus them to get them off the tank. What are the other Ork units doing during this time? Sitting back and having a good laugh as you try to micro half a dozen units to counter his one? If Orks survive to a state in T3 that they can afford Nobz then IG have already lost. If you've managed to wipe them and they only can get a Nob unit out then the IG player will probably win. And that just boggles me. There's just a single unit and their chances are still only as good as probably.

Nurland wrote:And yes, Lemans are more versatile than BB. BB being the more niche purchase out of the two. Worth to note though that a single BB isn't really much more expensive than an upgraded Leman.


Sure, I'd agree with that. Lemans are better than a BB. But what situation would you build a BB where you weren't already sure you would win?

Nurland wrote:Kinda the same goes for Land Raiders, you rarely see them because faster, manouverable units are usually more desirable. But properly supported Land Raider (or a BB in a team game) is a very potent unit.


I fixed this sentence. I've seen LR's, LRPhobos, LRCrusaders all used to good effect in 1v1's that were close. I've seen errors with these units that were corrected and they were able to correct it because of the control abilities of those units. I've never seen a BB in a close competitive game that was a good idea. It was either very one-sided, or he built a BB and it cost him the game. If you're familiar with a close game that saw a BB make a significant impact that his opponent couldn't counter I'd love to see it. I'd love to see the BB played more in general.

Nurland wrote:Suppression is still useful in the late game. Completely negating Nobz once they run out of frenzy is a pretty nice thing to have.
Also I remember seeimg Ogryns used very well against Nobz. Disrupting them (while using support abilities on Ogs) while they get pew pewed.

I feel like you're comparing Nobz to the IG army in a vaccuum, and I'm sure that's not the case because I know you're a good player. So please point out what I'm missing here. If you're building HWT's late game then he could also use his charging Warboss/teleporting melee Mekboy/infiltrated Kommando Nob/stikkbommaz/stormboyz/flanking sluggas/tankbustas/deff dredd/kommandos/foot of gork/(pick another ork unit) to get one or both of the HWT's off the field or die. The whole army needs to be focusing the Nobz to get them off the field but there are other Ork threats they have to deal with at the same time.

I don't want this to be about IG vs Nobz though, I'm mostly focusing on what I view as the problems IG have in games that run a long time. It's true that IG have very strong shooting potential and if all units did was walk up and shoot at each other then they'd def be very OP. But it's not... By late game there are tons of high damage AoE and control abilities that gimp their shooting and that makes powerful melee units they can't focus down devastating. I don't think a strong shooting ability is good justification for making melee (with support) counter everything they have after 15 minutes into the game...
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Re: IG T3

Postby Telos » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 3:31 pm

@Nurland, I also want to mention that I really appreciate you taking the time to address these thoughts as it helps me better understand the game and how to play it better.
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Re: IG T3

Postby Nurland » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 6:29 pm

Well if you want to learn to understand the game better and learn it, you should post on the strategy section instead of balance.

Anyhow when the Nobz are very close to your army you bring the Catas forward and shotgun blast them so they have minimal exposure.

Kinda the same goes for Land Raiders, you rarely see them because faster, manouverable units are usually more desirable. But properly supported Land Raider (or a BB in a team game) is a very potent unit.

I don't know why you "fixed" that for me. I haven't really seen much LRR action in games that were close. Pred or Termies are the superior choices almost always in a 1v1. Super units in general need more army behind them for them to properly shine.

I am not comparing Nobz to IG army in a vacuum... But if he has Nobz, you should be easily able to afford counters to them in most cases. Most of his resources are in that squad. Once you get rid of them his army loses most of its scariness.

Tbh I do not see a balance issue here. Have you tried asking some higher lvl IG players if they feel the same about the faction? That they need buffs in their T3 to be able to compete with other factions late games? Because for me IG has one of the very best late games in the game.
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Re: IG T3

Postby Dark Riku » Thu 16 Aug, 2018 9:35 pm

I'm sorry. But this is just so much no. It's to much to go over right now.
If you want we can have a voice chat about it in Discord sometime or something.

In the meantime. I suggest you just keep playing and improving yourself.
After some more time. You'll start seeing your own mistakes in this thread too I think.

Take 2.9 BETA PREVIEW with a ton of salt too please.
Most of the things in there are just ridiculous.
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Re: IG T3

Postby Telos » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 4:18 am

Sho nuff, I mostly wrote this in response to the 2.9 stuff but if players think IG are fine then :P
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Re: IG T3

Postby Torpid » Fri 17 Aug, 2018 6:30 am

IG are OP. Definitely not UP.
Lets make Ordo Malleus great again!

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