The Issue with Eldar

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
Woodenplank
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The Issue with Eldar

Postby Woodenplank » Wed 18 Jul, 2018 2:30 pm

The balance of the eldar faction is, and has long been, rather equivocal.

On on hand people continually call for nerfs (and they receive them), but on the other hand YouTube channels are saturated with lengthy fights of Eldar eventually losing out - watching Indrid's Faction Wars, they have an abysmal win ratio (particularly against Space Marines and/or Chaos).

I'm no expert, but I believe these seemingly contradictory issues stem from a disparity between Eldar Tier 1 and Tier 3.

People often complain about Rangers and Banshees in particular. Rangers (with Pathfinder Gear and Kinetic Pulse) are a proper pain to deal with in T1, especially when multiple squads continually knock down entire squads, or pick off models from way out of sight range.
Banshees and their Power Melee weapon is also horrifying; a 350req squad with a combined 135 Power_melee DPS, and melee skill to rival Raptors, Assault Marines, and Sluggas. If you've played Chaos/Eldar match up, I'm sure even 'the pros' have found themselves frustrated by losing their CSM in an opening engagement, seemingly disappearing in no time.

However, come Tier 3, eldar just can't stand up to the other armies. Seer Council and the Avatar provide some durability, and D-cannons do occassionally land a good Singularity, but overall other faction T3 armies will tend to just roll right over Eldar (in my experience).

Now; I'm not an expert. At all. But it's a free forum, and I think it seems obvious that the faction has issues - issues that are not solely the fault of player mismanagement (like getting a D-cannon when you just needed Fire Dragons).
I won't assume to have a solution to the issue (I'm too much a noob for that), but here's an open thread to try to work out a solution.

(A few private ideas on my part, feel free to critisize/flame)
Make Banshees use regular melee damage, and restrict the Power_melee to the Aspect upgrade(s). It won't really be a nerf in the long run, as people always get Aspects any way, but it means that you must at least invest the 20 power before they will counter other T1 melee specialists (who tend to cost 30-40 power to field).

EDIT:
I'll try to summarize some of the below suggestions.
  • People are very split on the Avatar. Some feel it's too clunky, and doesn't fit the bill for Eldar. Others think it's perfectly fine
  • It has been suggested to move either Dark Reapers or Fire Dragons to T3. Fire Dragons would receive a health buff (so they could frontline with Avatar/Seer Council), Dark Reapers would have improved range and/or suppression/morale-damage-on-hit.
  • People like to call eachother stupid over disagreements on balance of the Eldar Faction...
Last edited by Woodenplank on Sun 22 Jul, 2018 4:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Dark Riku
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Dark Riku » Wed 18 Jul, 2018 4:53 pm

Woodenplank wrote:I'm no expert, but I believe these seemingly contradictory issues stem from a disparity between Eldar Tier 1 and Tier 3.
These contradiction you witness come from the difference in player skills.

Eldar T3 is more than capable.

Rangers already received changes in 2.8. Let's see how they play out before asking for more changes?

A new T3 unit is just impossible.
Unless you have a coder, modeller and a voice actor up your sleeve? :D
D-cans and fire prism are great for assaulting a line of russes and land raiders. They have the range advantage.
All you need to do is spot for them. Rangers are amazing for this.

Let's not buff the shield on the falcon. That thing is ridiculously strong as is already.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Black Relic » Wed 18 Jul, 2018 6:11 pm

Honestly i would like to have a shield upgrade on in t3 the Wraith Lord instead of the wraith bone ability. But I don't have alot of experience with the wraith lord since for whatever reason it just feels like it falls short alot. Can't really put my finger on to why. .
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Torpid » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 3:03 am

I think both DR and FD would be better as specialist T3 units and got buffs to compensate. Might give eldar a viable late game in 3v3 then.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Black Relic » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 4:56 am

Torpid wrote:I think both DR and FD would be better as specialist T3 units and got buffs to compensate. Might give eldar a viable late game in 3v3 then.



Could be cool. DR's could have a small set up time but suppress after enough focus fire form the squad. Would help shift some trouble Eldar have with some t3 melee with the exception of melee termis. Maybe even give their old launcher back too and so long as they are set up they can fire it.

Idk what DRs would get though. I think this is an "either or" type thing. If would be something would be included. Either FD in move to t3. Or DR get moved to t3. Although it would be nice if FD's got their own damage type that made them do well vs vehicles and structures and not do too well vs infantry. Sort of like how they performed in dow1. ATM they are a generalist purchase and i do my best to not choose them since imo they are an easy out. But for now they dont need any work.

I haven't really touched t3 Eldar units much except fire prisms. Its just SOO good.
Last edited by Black Relic on Thu 19 Jul, 2018 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Atlas
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Atlas » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 5:26 am

What would FDs do in T3 that they can't do in T2? T3 is when all the vehicles you basically don't want FDs to fight (ie tanks) show up. And as Black Relic pointed out they are basically just a close range unit, they deal with anything due to melta damage.

I mean if you want DRs in T3 I guess. It does kinda fit the theme that Eldar goes for long range in T3 ie Prisms/Dcannons. They could be like Flash Gitz I suppose.
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Thibix Magnus
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Thibix Magnus » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 11:23 am

@OP

First 3v3 videos can be misleading. Impregnable explained in the other thread how small laney maps were favoured, which doesn't help eldar. Beyond that, other factions are more suited to the general lack of communication, while I really think Eldar could shine with highly synchronized teams, they might have the highest ceiling for that but we haven't seen it yet. So (said as an often frustrated main eldar in 3v3) I still don't think we can judge their performance based on usual videos. Their T3 in 3v3 follows the same pattern, using frail prisms and timing singularities or hero abilities to their real potential requires a degree of team play that you rarely see.

Second, I think eldar had to follow a complicated transformation in Elite. They were extremely frail and deadly in retail, so you had to really focus on model killing (rangers) and squad wipe (banshees) rather than just winning engagements and taking the field, just to compensate your own horrible bleed. Which was always frustrating for one side or the other depending on the outcome.

In elite, there were intents to make things less binary, rangers don't 1-shot HI models, banshees squad wipe has been constantly reduced, but DA and shees are kinda a bit more survivable. But if shees lose, say, their power blades, the whole eldar composition collapses I think. Just to say, shees wipe potential has been nerfed long ago, they are still dangerous but you have to anticipate. And if they were too good, as an early T1 you would see them in pairs more often.

Third, well, it's also just fashionable to complain about eldar trickery. It has been so since DoW1 which seems to have created a sort of collective trauma about eldar ;)

@all I still want my high speed falcons but a super long range T3 version of DR could be really interesting

Edit: actually another cool option would be to keep all aspects in T2, but move wraithguard in T3 and make them scarier, giving them more range/damage or SHI. It was always tricky to balance them in T2 anyway, and I would rather give eldar a rougher time in T2 with a harder come-back in T3. I also still think D-cannons were overnerfed ages ago, an effective 50% damage nerf against moving targets.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Schepp himself » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 1:50 pm

I'm all for a new T3 units for Eldar: Striking Scorpions that is.

In all seriousness, I don't see Eldar being in dire need of balance changes especially after the Falcon and the Ranger nerf. What could work, in my opinion , which is rather based on what doesn't break my fluffy heart of lore and backround of the Eldar, is to switch Dark Reaper into T3 and give them two fire modes. One with anti-heavy infantry and anti SHI firepower similiar to what they have now and the other being a missle launcher type fire mode. That goes the way of "making them like flash gits". But different and hopefully not that neglected. But Eldar don't have Nobz so I don't see the problem. ;)

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P.S.: Due to my fluffy heart there is no way to take the power weapon away from banshees. You would have to pry them from my cold dead hands. :twisted:
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby SarDauk » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 2:29 pm

Schepp himself wrote:I'm all for a new T3 units for Eldar: Striking Scorpions that is.

In all seriousness, I don't see Eldar being in dire need of balance changes especially after the Falcon and the Ranger nerf. What could work, in my opinion , which is rather based on what doesn't break my fluffy heart of lore and backround of the Eldar, is to switch Dark Reaper into T3 and give them two fire modes. One with anti-heavy infantry and anti SHI firepower similiar to what they have now and the other being a missle launcher type fire mode. That goes the way of "making them like flash gits". But different and hopefully not that neglected. But Eldar don't have Nobz so I don't see the problem. ;)

Greets
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P.S.: Due to my fluffy heart there is no way to take the power weapon away from banshees. You would have to pry them from my cold dead hands. :twisted:

if striking scorpions are EVER added, it should be in T2 as a cloaked melee squad rather in T3 where Eldar already have seer council. Btw if someone really want to add them, they are in the codex edition mod.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Crewfinity » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 5:28 pm

Schepp himself wrote:What could work, in my opinion , which is rather based on what doesn't break my fluffy heart of lore and backround of the Eldar, is to switch Dark Reaper into T3 and give them two fire modes. One with anti-heavy infantry and anti SHI firepower similiar to what they have now and the other being a missle launcher type fire mode. That goes the way of "making them like flash gits". But different and hopefully not that neglected. But Eldar don't have Nobz so I don't see the problem. ;)

Greets
Schepp himself


I actually kinda like this idea. Dark reapers always felt like an odd T2 unit and theyre pretty underutilized in general - you usually will need fire dragons instead for AV capability and they do good damage to infantry as well, so theres some overlap in their current roles. Maybe moving dark reapers to t3 and changing them to more of an elite ranged superiority unit like kaskrin/flash gitz would be a good change
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Yabbaman » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 7:37 pm

I don't like how strong the banshees are for their cost either, but not skilled enough to propose a solution.

A health buff for the Avatar could be alright IMO, since it's a one of kind unit and a demon and so on, it's also kind of slow and has somewhat lamey animations for "god of wrath etc".
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lomors
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby lomors » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 7:54 pm

Okay, here are my thoughts about Eldar:

DP are okay. I mean, they serve their role. They are not great unit and I don't use them really often but they are my reaction to termie spam/power armor spam in general. And that's how they should work.

For me more important issue are Fire Dragons - move them to T3. Rly. If I'm in t2 and I need AV really fast I'd rather go for bright lance. Sometimes I go fo Fire Dragons and in most cases I immidietaly regret it. Rly. They just don't work. Not because of damage, but because of HP. They are focused down asap and the fact that they're heavy infantry doesn't seem to help them. Unless your opponent spams dreads and you get 2-3 fire dragons they just don't work.

My solution: move them to T3. Give them more HP. Just HP. This way you'll have a somewhat tanky T3 unit Eldar can respond with to T3 tank madness. We know fire prisms don't do that well. It is ideal solution for all the players calling to give Eldar something so they can stand up to other races' 3v3 tank madness and won't destroy 1v1 balance.

The second thing: avatar. It's bloody handed trash. Rly. You say we need new unit for Eldar? We don't need it. We need avatar to be fixed. Don't get me wrong, ava is not a bad unit, it's just not worth buying. It needs to be redisgned. It dies really quickly. Like really. Quickly. It has damage of a puppy and suffers because of his ultra slow animations. Either it is 3v3 or 1v1 I don't buy it. I can go for seers which are more tankier than ava is or fire prism which is an awesome unit. I go for ava only in one situation: when I know I'm winning and I want a show. Fixing him would give Eldar once again something in T3 that doesn't die as soon as you lose eye contact with it. I think he needs either a cost decrease or make it so his damage resistance aura applies to himself. I know he's all about passive buffs. But you can't rely on a super units to be used only for its passive buffs. As for me I'd rather have HP buff for him and removal of passive buffs.
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TE | NoSkill
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby TE | NoSkill » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 8:13 pm

That´s right, Vet 4 carnifex does more dmg then an Avatar. The Avatar of the WAR-god.

Why not give him like 300 dmg?
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby lomors » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 8:13 pm

One more thing:

Remove Autarch's Fusion gun. People won't buy it until it gets some buff. When it gets buff it will be op coz Autarch is too fast to have some propa av. I suggest we agree on it being imposible to balance and I think we should remove it and replace it. We have plenty of models from last stand and campaign. Even shuri catapult with some extra damage + plasma grenades would be better.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Broodwich » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 8:31 pm

Pretty much what Riku said, Dcans and FP are pretty nice already.

Eldar is a glass cannon faction for the most part, and their t3 reflects this. You can't beat them at range, you have to push up and smash them in the face with everything you have. Once you break their line they are fucked because everything dies so fast. This is especially true in team games

To counter, eldar heroes all have great control abilities to setup combos with said glass cannon things. The challenge is: is your micro up to it? A lot of players are not, and the replays i see them losing those sorts of fights is due to players losing track of their units and allowing them to be ganked, or staying in it too long and allowing them to get ganked. You don't play them like the rest of the factions
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lomors
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby lomors » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 9:17 pm

I'm not saying are worse than other factions. They have what it takes to win a t3. Just commenting on how I feel about units. FP and DP can be left alone in my opinion. I'd like just some change for ava. Not to directly buff it, just to make it as a decent t3 choice compared to prism/seers.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Broodwich » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 11:07 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:That´s right, Vet 4 carnifex does more dmg then an Avatar. The Avatar of the WAR-god.

Why not give him like 300 dmg?

https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=e ... #abilities
https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=e ... #abilities
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby TE | NoSkill » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 11:25 pm

Broodwich wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:That´s right, Vet 4 carnifex does more dmg then an Avatar. The Avatar of the WAR-god.

Why not give him like 300 dmg?

https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=e ... #abilities
https://dawnofwar.info/codex.php?page=e ... #abilities


So what?
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Oddnerd » Thu 19 Jul, 2018 11:32 pm

He is pointing out that the higher melee DPH of the fex is outweighed by the amazing support aura that the Avatar has, along with it's excellent crowd control abilities.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Torpid » Fri 20 Jul, 2018 12:12 am

I agree that the avatar is trash. It's a gimmick unit that relies mostly on its Wailing doom synergy with the eldar heroe's t3 wargears. Rubbish. Its damage is too slow. Not as tanky as the GUO.Frankly worse abilities since both are easier to dodge. than the GUO's respective counter-part. GUO has higher daamge, higher hp, and is affected by worship buffs. Nice.

I'd definitely buff the ava. Should do a bit more damage. Wrath of khaine should have higher radius and the avatar should be a little faster too imo.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Torpid » Fri 20 Jul, 2018 12:13 am

Broodwich wrote:Pretty much what Riku said, Dcans and FP are pretty nice already.

Eldar is a glass cannon faction for the most part, and their t3 reflects this. You can't beat them at range, you have to push up and smash them in the face with everything you have. Once you break their line they are fucked because everything dies so fast. This is especially true in team games

To counter, eldar heroes all have great control abilities to setup combos with said glass cannon things. The challenge is: is your micro up to it? A lot of players are not, and the replays i see them losing those sorts of fights is due to players losing track of their units and allowing them to be ganked, or staying in it too long and allowing them to get ganked. You don't play them like the rest of the factions


Lemans+kasrkin, any ranged terminator variant, and gitzh/kommandoes all offer far superior ranged compositions on armies that also have better late game melee (IG excluded) than eldar have to offer. The eldar t3 is undoubtedly bad. Granted I wouldn't buff d canon or fp. I think the ava and a new t3 DR would be the best route.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Kvn » Fri 20 Jul, 2018 12:24 am

In my personal opinion, the issue with the Avatar is that it's designed to support a large, probably leveled, standing army in head on engagements. Since Eldar are so squishy, it's very easy for them to lose forces, and since the only late game 'recovery' unit they have is the Seer Council, numbers and head on power aren't their thing. If you lose any of your T1/T2 infantry squads, the aura becomes significantly less powerful.

It has a decent amount of bulk to help draw fire, but if you're using it as a mainline tank it just seems to function like a worse GUO.

The Avatar's buffs are huge to be completely fair, but they don't really help as much as one would think unless you've got that massive force which is not a given. It kind of ends up becoming a 'win-more' unit in that sense. It isn't bad at what it does, but it can be pretty clunky to use with the Eldar force at times.

Not going to suggest any buffs/changes because I'm not sure how it could be altered (assuming it needs to be at all, because clunky doesn't mean useless) but figured I'd put that out there.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby lomors » Fri 20 Jul, 2018 12:40 am

I still would rather get T3 Fire Dragons than DP. Please remember that somehow they serve the role of anti-heavy infantry. And since SM drop pods are a thing they are really good counter to mass marines with sergeants in t2. Also I heard somewhere DP are meant to be a counter to ogryns.
Tankier Fire Dragons would actually fit T3 much better. As they are short-range they would also work really well with avatar reducing the problem of not having front-line infantry for ava to buff.

That would actually allow Eldar T3 to become really different and as I imagine it would require few patches to balance it out it might offer something new and interesting.

And once again: remove fusion gun pls.

And I pretty much with everything what KVN just said.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Broodwich » Fri 20 Jul, 2018 12:53 am

@ torpid
none of those have a "delete army" option like dcannon does, nor a kb all your melee option/snipe models option like the FP does. Barring termi missiles, none of those have the range either. Eldar depend on abilities rather than straight damage/tankiness to win

I'll agree the avatar is an underwhelming choice though. It takes too long to field, and is too expensive to justify purchasing over their other t3 options. If it didn't pathblock the army you're trying to stack around it to get the buffs, it might not be as bad an option. I could see it as a decent counter initiation tool in that case, maybe with an ability to cast a buff or debuff in an area instead of an aura

Depends what you think t3 eldar is lacking really. If you want a tank then more speed to help him close would make it stand out more from a GUO vs more HP. I feel Elite has had too many random buffs because "it isn't good enough" instead of having an objective behind them
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby boss » Fri 20 Jul, 2018 1:26 am

The avatar is trash ......................................................................................................................
I try and understand these post and I just don't believe what I hear, the avatar not only buffs all his allies,
Allied infantry units within 20 radius do 30% more damage, receive 30% less ranged damage, and are immune to suppression. Passive ability.
but also does great damage 240 heavy melee with a splash of something think 40 would be nice if it was on the codex, guo does 200 when it lost his splash but slow damage over time around him, Swarmlord only does 110 and that got buff like 4 times since retail.

But also has 2 very powerful abilitys which only termis and nobz can tank somewhat but can be doge , guo also has some great abilitys but is very hard to doge and Swarmlord well only has 2 not the most powerful stuff ever.
So when you talk about trash super units think again pls cos you make your self's sound stupid.

Fire dragons should just be removed should never been added in the first place fast unit with melt damage you can't balance that plus with a very dumb ability which lets them have 100% fotm and less cooldown.

Dark reapers have a place in t2 and should stay they don't need buffs just need to use them right at range very long range hence why they have 48 range flash gitz have 40 stranded can buy more for 6, still less than dark reapers and they get inferno damage out of the gate.

Eldar players need to use there brains and instead of just getting a falcon cos it's a falcon and use there other units for once.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Kvn » Fri 20 Jul, 2018 1:50 am

boss wrote:the avatar not only buffs all his allies,
Allied infantry units within 20 radius do 30% more damage, receive 30% less ranged damage, and are immune to suppression. Passive ability.


The buffs have already been mentioned, and while really powerful on paper, they don't mesh well with Eldar composition if you take casualties early on. If you maintain your full T1-T2 force into the late game, it's great, but by then you were probably in a winning position to begin with unless it's been a flawless game from both sides.

boss wrote:but also does great damage 240 heavy melee with a splash of something think 40 would be nice if it was on the codex, guo does 200 when it lost his splash but slow damage over time around him, Swarmlord only does 110 and that got buff like 4 times since retail.


I would like to point out that Avatar attacks much slower than the Swarmlord. 80 dps for the Ava vs 110 dps for the SL.

boss wrote:But also has 2 very powerful abilitys which only termis and nobz can tank somewhat but can be doge ,


Wailing Doom is very easy to avoid so long as you're paying attention (except for setup teams, so it kind of ends up as an anti-setup ability a lot of the time) and while Khaine's Wrath is harder for stuck in melee units to get away from, it still takes an age to drop.

boss wrote:guo also has some great abilitys but is very hard to doge and Swarmlord well only has 2 not the most powerful stuff ever.


Personally, I'd consider Leech Essence to be incredible on a well-microed super unit. The survivability it gives, along with the speed and reinforce buffs for a swarmy army can be very scary to deal with. Swarmlord isn't the best super unit around, but he does have some things going for him here.

boss wrote:Fire dragons should just be removed should never been added in the first place fast unit with melt damage you can't balance that plus with a very dumb ability which lets them have 100% fotm and less cooldown.


As well as short range, low hp, high target priority, and a steep drop off in effectiveness once tanks (or any explosive/plasma aoe for that matter) hits the field. They bleed quite heavily, which is one of the reasons they're rarely used outside of anti-walker or panic av.

boss wrote:Eldar players need to use there brains and instead of just getting a falcon cos it's a falcon and use there other units for once.


You are overlooking the fact that most of the Eldar roster is highly specialized, meaning that you can't always just "use other units for once." Falcon is a staple unit because of its general utility and the fact that it's harder to punish, making it more appealing than investing in other options that can be countered with a more direct build order. I think it's a bit early to start insulting people here over something like this.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby lomors » Fri 20 Jul, 2018 2:27 am

I think the Wailing Doom is the only really strong aspect of avatar. It's easy to dodge but was made really powerful to compensate that. Ava's damage is really lacking I feel. Swarm lord can reinforce every faction around itself + 1 speed. Ava's buffs are cool yeah when it's team game and he goes to fight alongside other factions. Eldar infantry just dies after 2-3 frontal attacks in T3 and we have to move on to spamming fire prisms/d-cannons. I really don't make "pls buff Eldar" but as cool as the idea of Avatar was it needs some rework.

And again: I don't think Eldar T3 is super weak. They just lack something what could create bulk of their army in T3.
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Thibix Magnus » Fri 20 Jul, 2018 11:08 am

About the avatar...
I don't find him (her? it) that bad, really good tactically at forcing back the enemy line just with implied threat, particularly with cloak of shadows/fortune/orb support... but maybe it's only a mid level player thing? As people say, a way to add salt to a victory instead of making a comeback...

I. simple additions
maybe just benefiting from the SC regen aura could be a start. So if abilities are too easily baited out you can at least get them back quicker. Melee dps in the 100's can't hurt either. Or something like immune to vehicle stun.

II. full rework a good starting point for a rework is visual awesomeness (then we can balance values). Both abilities are now, from an animation work perspective, CRAP. And both can't be made faster because they are linked to model animations, so we need other solutions...

- wrath of khaine visually feels underwhelming. With the tense dramatic build-up with the super long animation, and the (already) awesome knock-back strength, the radius of the ability and the little flames feel absolutely ridiculous. And balance-wise it is so avoidable it can't hurt to increase the radius substantially (not to purgatus levels eh).

- I know it's the perk that already works best, but the OLD wailing doom was just waaaaaaaaay cooler than the post-retribution one. The magnitude of the explosions, aligned with trajectory of the blade, was awesome. Instead of balancing it because it was a concern for super-tanks, it was replaced by a lame wave of grenade barrage, with a lateral spread that doesn't fit at all with the sword animation.

on the balance side, the current version is maybe harder to dodge, but still easy anyway. iirc single linear explosions of the old version had a decent area, and it can be made wider. More importantly, the new version is forward knockback so you only max out damage for really close targets that will cumulate the explosions. Those at the edge suffer almost nothing. The old wailing doom had lateral or 360 knockback, which meant you dealt the same damage if you are at the end of the wave. So, easier to dodge laterally, but no mitigation if you get caught at the edge. And it can be much better in the 3v3 tank madness.
(Now, before tank owners start to cry, I get that it's not cool that your tank gets 1-shot. Damage type and values can be tuned accordingly).

What we can do to compensate the reduced area is add some length to that old wailing doom, so you can force the opponent to spread around a very long line. This would be a rework more than a straight buff, and tactically really interesting.

- MAYBE vehicle armor like carnifexes (cuz molten metal body, kind of), with less hp? Worse vs AV, better in melee and most range, dunno how it would work out. Would allow to better duel melee fexes and dreads, which are I think an issue for eldar.


TL;DR just for creative brainstorm, a non-cumulative list of ideas

- 100 dps (buff)
- benefit from SC aura(s) (buff)
- vehicle armor, hp nerf (rework)
- wider wrath of khaine (buff, maybe most needed)
- revert old linear wailing doom, reduce a bit damage vs tanks, make it longer (rework)

- Edit: maybe make it immune to vehicle stuns as a molten body perk. Small but efficient.
Last edited by Thibix Magnus on Fri 20 Jul, 2018 11:30 am, edited 4 times in total.
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lomors
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby lomors » Fri 20 Jul, 2018 11:17 am

If we don't want big changes I'd simply go to change buffs into debuffs with slightly reduced price. It's just too big for a support-role-super-unit.
Or maybe as someone mentioned above change buffs into abilities.

Yeah ideas above are cool. I think at least slight rework of ava is needed for next match. Inner circle, I'm counting on you.
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Aguxyz
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Re: The Issue with Eldar

Postby Aguxyz » Fri 20 Jul, 2018 11:27 am

It seems ppl need to git gud with avatar, I don't even play eldar and i've done some ridiculous stuff with ranger's/farseer webways, warlock combos etc etc.
"Does the Seer see its own doom!?" -Tau commander
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