Re: Apothecary things
Posted: Tue 17 Jul, 2018 2:02 am
Forest, he said 40-50% cd or affect all abilities, not and. I doubt it changes your point, but it's not as crazy as you made it out to be.
TE | NoSkill wrote:As I see it, it is the wargear and particularly the armors, that are the problems. The apo lacks an offensive wargear to improve the potency of the axe, that s why I advocated for him to get an jumppack.
TE | NoSkill wrote:@BlackRelic pls argue the point and not the poster!
man what are you trying to say here? you want a jump pack because it's nice?TE | NoSkill wrote:To play an apo melee is too risky, even with SC, and that would be nicely helped by an jumppack.Coz you always wnat him to stay as long as possible to do his support things.
It's an failsave for an not all too tanky hero, while he can t shit out support and heals the way he can without it ( coz not enough energy).
Oddnerd wrote:TE | NoSkill wrote:@BlackRelic pls argue the point and not the poster!
People have been trying that, and it is about as effective as arguing with a brick wall. You clearly don't have it in you to understand why your suggestion is terrible, so Relic's point that you need experience to see this firsthand is correct. A lot of people who start playing Elite mod go through a phase in their early months where they feel they know what kind of significant balance changes must be made to make the game better, even though those changes would be disastrous at medium-high levels of game play. Playing the game and becoming familiar with every race/map/matchup is the only way to truly understand the game balance.
TE | NoSkill wrote:Oddnerd wrote:TE | NoSkill wrote:@BlackRelic pls argue the point and not the poster!
People have been trying that, and it is about as effective as arguing with a brick wall. You clearly don't have it in you to understand why your suggestion is terrible, so Relic's point that you need experience to see this firsthand is correct. A lot of people who start playing Elite mod go through a phase in their early months where they feel they know what kind of significant balance changes must be made to make the game better, even though those changes would be disastrous at medium-high levels of game play. Playing the game and becoming familiar with every race/map/matchup is the only way to truly understand the game balance.
So basically everything I said was terrible and I need to get better?
Sorry, but I don t act on this basis.
Piano proved me kinda wrong ingame; why he wasn t able to do it in words I don t know.
PS: I don t play this game since yesterday nor since a couple months.
I have to say I am impressed with how calmly u analyzed this and gave a logical and constructive criticism to it.Codex wrote:Ok let me try a different tack.
NoSkill, there are a few things that people are picking up on that is causing this thread to become a quagmire.
1. Every single one of your posts is in Balance discussion (even going back to 2016). This is an issue because for me, even as a veteran of DOW2 from all the way back in 2008, my first port of call if I'm having a problem is I assume my problem is strategic: I could play better, I'm making some kind of macro mistake. Your tendency to post in balance discussions shows that you are quick to move past the strategic consideration and offer balance changes.
In addition to this, there have been a couple of times when you've shown your concerns don't revolve around game design or balance. For example, the jump pack suggestion for Apo was described as nice, and you wanted Apo to get an offensive option, It just shows a misunderstanding from a categorical perspective. Apo is designed by his ability to stick to the map and support his army, giving him an offensive option makes no sense.
Also, why is "- Looks cool with Blood Angel scheme + ASM combo." appearing in balance discussions? I specifically wrote the balance discussion rules to clarify that rule of cool has ZERO weight in this forum.
2. A cursory search of your posts on this site shows you never- NEVER back down. You never change your mind. You never even acknowledge someone else's well-made argument. Your threads, and indeed your posts, are not Balance Discussion, it is distinctly "Balance as NoSkill sees it", because you're always countering someone else's point. Or if you don't think that this path will lead anywhere, you simply move onto a different suggestion:
A sample of your posts:
"AC has nothing to do with marks... you're not using your faction properly"
"Still I fail to see how that makes it bad"
"Scout melee damage: is pathetic. Scouts in their vanilla state are bad units"
"Because I believe..."
"Cegorach must be proud of you"
"Can't you read?!!!... Ideas don t come perfectly up and need to be moulded through discussion into the right form."
"If I familiarize more, that would be incest.
Nobody (should) exspect his suggestions to be perfect hits. That s why they can be discussed here, can t they?
And don t worry, I am already hardened by the DoW III forums for this job "
In fact, these quotes are from 7 back-to-back posts by you in May 2018.
So here's the crux of the issue. You claim you're throwing your ideas so they can be moulded by good balance discussion. But when the vast majority of contributors to this forum take issue with certain parts of your ideas, you will fight tooth and nail to ensure your ideas never get moulded by others.
Maybe take a hint: if many people from different backgrounds are talking to you and responding to your points the same way, maybe it isn't everyone else... maybe it has something to do with what you're doing.
3. You claim to listen, but it feels like you don't:
"I do listen to fair points, not to "more experienced player = automatically right"."
"I don t care for their experience, but for the validity of their points. I know that experience sometimes equals validity in wisdom, but I don t count on that usually."
"Have you seen, how much my list of proposals has changed??"
If you look at the Apo thread as a whole as an example, your posts have been along the lines of:
I think this. And this is why I think I'm right.
You're wrong. I disagree with this this and this.
Okay so no one wants this, well how about this? Ok, well how about this suggestion or this suggestion?
We've basically had 5 pages of this. There's a reason why this thread is so long yet we've basically not gotten any further.
Overall, the feeling I get is that no amount of my posting is going to convince you that SC and melee option Apo is fine. And I think a lot of people have the same feeling. The whole thread's premise is that Apo's melee options are UP and hence we should buff them, but instead of the discussion being centred on this premise, you're too busy jumping between suggestions in order to improve Apo's melee potential, assuming the premise to be true.
So no, not everything that you're posting is awful. It's your attitude to other people's posts that is problematic. So yeah, people are going to get frustrated with your posting style.
If you disagree with what I'm saying, show me one post which you've written where you say: yep, fair enough, that was a good point. I was wrong.
TE | NoSkill wrote:So basically everything I said was terrible and I need to get better?
Sorry, but I don't act on this basis.
Piano proved me kinda wrong ingame; why he wasn t able to do it in words I don t know.
Black Relic wrote:^^^ I was actually considering making a quick Elite mirror mod but with jump pack Apo so he could understand that it would be too good and/or not needed in high level play. But i was quickly discouraged because i would have to make it lol.
Atlas wrote:Black Relic wrote:^^^ I was actually considering making a quick Elite mirror mod but with jump pack Apo so he could understand that it would be too good and/or not needed in high level play. But i was quickly discouraged because i would have to make it lol.
It's really not THAT hard to do, mostly a copy/paste job for a wargear that grants the leap ability (like from asm). I don't even think you need the pack itself, just the ability.
Oddnerd wrote:Don't forget melta damage on heavy flamers
the last two points are not arguments. In fact none of this stuff is an argument, "less abuse potential" than what exactly? what apothecary accessories are considered abuse?TE | NoSkill wrote:- Makes it easier to play an melee apo (follow ASM in, disrupt etc.).Still apo is relatively squishy and has not as potent weaponry, so balance shouldn t be bent too much.
- provides mobility an utility
- has a lot less abuse potential ; with pack needing the wargear slot, max thing apo can do is go for stims and bolter and kait.
- Would bring fresh air to the apo-play to make him not only an support hero, but an hero with (lesser) support and more direct impact.
(- Looks cool with Blood Angel scheme + ASM combo.)
lolCrewfinity wrote:back to the topic of Apo gear options...
Sanguine Chainsword/Combat Stims/Purification Rites looking pretty strong here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Z4cVsyYVE
TE | NoSkill wrote:I said in the first post, that Apo is not weak, but plays too 1-dimensional,certain options are quiet niche and seldom seen, in contrary to Armor of Apothecarion, Advanced med and bolter. And this is boring to face again and again.
Tho I always said, that rites in combo could have an additional effect, so he kinda missed the point anyway.
And I am capable of changing my mind
Atlas wrote:Meh, I don't see how the jump pack makes apo any better of a melee fighter. I mean, I guess he can jump setups or something. But it doesn't address the main issue of the fact that most people prefer the apo to just not get shot at all, which is easier in range.
Maybe we just nerf the bolter at this rate. It's already bordering on the "not as intended" area and we only made the change in the first place because chain kbs were never fun. Maybe switch it to suppression instead?
Atlas wrote:Maybe we just nerf the bolter at this rate. It's already bordering on the "not as intended" area and we only made the change in the first place because chain kbs were never fun. Maybe switch it to suppression instead?