Apothecary things

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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xXKageAsashinXx
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby xXKageAsashinXx » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 2:02 am

Forest, he said 40-50% cd or affect all abilities, not and. I doubt it changes your point, but it's not as crazy as you made it out to be.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 2:24 am

TE | NoSkill wrote:As I see it, it is the wargear and particularly the armors, that are the problems. The apo lacks an offensive wargear to improve the potency of the axe, that s why I advocated for him to get an jumppack.


He lacks an offensive wargear because he is not an offensive commander. He isn't supposed to be a beefy melee commander who can spearhead an attack; that is what the FC is for. The axe is not supposed to make him a full-on offensive commander - it is mostly there to help him deal with powerful melee aggression by the enemy.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Black Relic » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 6:43 am

I think he just needs more experience in the game to better understand roles for units, heros and understand a hero cannot be omnipotent. But again that comes with practice and coming to understand balance. Weaknesses must be there for a unit in someway. For the Apo, its the lack off offensive "umph" to make his units do more of the "umph".

All i think he can learn as of right now is to not only use Apo heal in fights and start from there.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 1:04 pm

I may have chosen the wrong words;
What I meant to say:
To play an apo melee is too risky, even with SC, and that would be nicely helped by an jumppack.Coz you always wnat him to stay as long as possible to do his support things.
It's an failsave for an not all too tanky hero, while he can t shit out support and heals the way he can without it ( coz not enough energy).

@BlackRelic pls argue the point and not the poster!
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Nurland » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 1:50 pm

Melee Apo isn't really very risky with the SC though. Unless you are doing 3v3 on the non-solo lane against compositions that are ranged heavy.

I really don't see the need for an Apo jump pack.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 2:07 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:@BlackRelic pls argue the point and not the poster!


People have been trying that, and it is about as effective as arguing with a brick wall. You clearly don't have it in you to understand why your suggestion is terrible, so Relic's point that you need experience to see this firsthand is correct. A lot of people who start playing Elite mod go through a phase in their early months where they feel they know what kind of significant balance changes must be made to make the game better, even though those changes would be disastrous at medium-high levels of game play. Playing the game and becoming familiar with every race/map/matchup is the only way to truly understand the game balance.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Forestradio » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 2:29 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:To play an apo melee is too risky, even with SC, and that would be nicely helped by an jumppack.Coz you always wnat him to stay as long as possible to do his support things.
It's an failsave for an not all too tanky hero, while he can t shit out support and heals the way he can without it ( coz not enough energy).
man what are you trying to say here? you want a jump pack because it's nice?
well that's not how balance is made, the standard reaction to any balance suggestion is "no". "No" is the "null hypothesis." Just randomly adding stuff because it's nice breaks stuff and is responsible for most of the problems in the mod.
So here's how it works, if you want a change then you need to provide some actual reasoning? Matchup, compositions, specific scenarios, pricing, cooldowns, all that
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 2:46 pm

Alright then, summary, why the apo could use an jumppack;

- Makes it easier to play an melee apo (follow ASM in, disrupt etc.).Still apo is relatively squishy and has not as potent weaponry, so balance shouldn t be bent too much.
- provides mobility an utility
- has a lot less abuse potential ; with pack needing the wargear slot, max thing apo can do is go for stims and bolter and kait.
- Would bring fresh air to the apo-play to make him not only an support hero, but an hero with (lesser) support and more direct impact.
(- Looks cool with Blood Angel scheme + ASM combo.)
Last edited by TE | NoSkill on Tue 17 Jul, 2018 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 2:51 pm

Oddnerd wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:@BlackRelic pls argue the point and not the poster!


People have been trying that, and it is about as effective as arguing with a brick wall. You clearly don't have it in you to understand why your suggestion is terrible, so Relic's point that you need experience to see this firsthand is correct. A lot of people who start playing Elite mod go through a phase in their early months where they feel they know what kind of significant balance changes must be made to make the game better, even though those changes would be disastrous at medium-high levels of game play. Playing the game and becoming familiar with every race/map/matchup is the only way to truly understand the game balance.


So basically everything I said was terrible and I need to get better?
Sorry, but I don t act on this basis.

Piano proved me kinda wrong ingame; why he wasn t able to do it in words I don t know.

PS: I don t play this game since yesterday nor since a couple months.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 3:02 pm

Ok let me try a different tack.

NoSkill, there are a few things that people are picking up on that is causing this thread to become a quagmire.

1. Every single one of your posts is in Balance discussion (even going back to 2016). This is an issue because for me, even as a veteran of DOW2 from all the way back in 2008, my first port of call if I'm having a problem is I assume my problem is strategic: I could play better, I'm making some kind of macro mistake. Then I will go and ask for advice, from other experienced players, because I know that I have my own biases and my own strengths and weaknesses.

Your tendency to post in balance discussions shows that you are quick to move past strategic considerations and offer balance changes to resolve your issues.

In addition to this, there have been a couple of times when you've shown your concerns don't revolve around game design or balance. For example, the jump pack suggestion for Apo was described as nice, and you wanted Apo to get an offensive option, It just shows a misunderstanding from a categorical perspective. Apo is designed by his ability to stick to the map and support his army, giving him an offensive option makes no sense.

Also, why is "- Looks cool with Blood Angel scheme + ASM combo." appearing in balance discussions? I specifically wrote the balance discussion rules to clarify that rule of cool has ZERO weight in this forum.

2. A cursory search of your posts on this site shows you never- NEVER back down. You never change your mind. You never even acknowledge someone else's well-made argument. Your threads, and indeed your posts, are not Balance Discussion, it is distinctly "Balance as NoSkill sees it", because you're always countering someone else's point. Or if you don't think that this path will lead anywhere, you simply move onto a different suggestion:

A sample of your posts:

"AC has nothing to do with marks... you're not using your faction properly"
"Still I fail to see how that makes it bad"
"Scout melee damage: is pathetic. Scouts in their vanilla state are bad units"
"Because I believe..."
"Cegorach must be proud of you"
"Can't you read?!!!... Ideas don t come perfectly up and need to be moulded through discussion into the right form."
"If I familiarize more, that would be incest.
Nobody (should) exspect his suggestions to be perfect hits. That s why they can be discussed here, can t they?

And don t worry, I am already hardened by the DoW III forums for this job ;)"

In fact, these quotes are from 7 back-to-back posts by you in May 2018.

So here's the crux of the issue. You claim you're throwing your ideas so they can be moulded by good balance discussion. But when the vast majority of contributors to this forum take issue with certain parts of your ideas, you will fight tooth and nail to ensure your ideas never get moulded by others.

Maybe take a hint: if many people from different backgrounds are talking to you and responding to your points the same way, maybe it isn't everyone else... maybe it has something to do with what you're doing.

3. You claim to listen, but it feels like you don't:

"I do listen to fair points, not to "more experienced player = automatically right"."
"I don t care for their experience, but for the validity of their points. I know that experience sometimes equals validity in wisdom, but I don t count on that usually."
"Have you seen, how much my list of proposals has changed??"

If you look at the Apo thread as a whole as an example, your posts have been along the lines of:

I think this. And this is why I think I'm right.
You're wrong. I disagree with this this and this.
Okay so no one wants this, well how about this? Ok, well how about this suggestion or this suggestion?

We've basically had 5 pages of this. There's a reason why this thread is so long yet we've basically not gotten any further.

Overall, the feeling I get is that no amount of my posting is going to convince you that SC and melee option Apo is fine. And I think a lot of people have the same feeling. The whole thread's premise is that Apo's melee options are UP and hence we should buff them, but instead of the discussion being centred on this premise, you're too busy jumping between suggestions in order to improve Apo's melee potential, assuming the premise to be true.

So no, not everything that you're posting is awful. It's your attitude to other people's posts that is problematic. So yeah, people are going to get frustrated with your posting style.

If you disagree with what I'm saying, show me one post which you've written where you say: yep, fair enough, that was a good point. I was wrong.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Black Relic » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 3:55 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:@BlackRelic pls argue the point and not the poster!


People have been trying that, and it is about as effective as arguing with a brick wall. You clearly don't have it in you to understand why your suggestion is terrible, so Relic's point that you need experience to see this firsthand is correct. A lot of people who start playing Elite mod go through a phase in their early months where they feel they know what kind of significant balance changes must be made to make the game better, even though those changes would be disastrous at medium-high levels of game play. Playing the game and becoming familiar with every race/map/matchup is the only way to truly understand the game balance.


So basically everything I said was terrible and I need to get better?
Sorry, but I don t act on this basis.

Piano proved me kinda wrong ingame; why he wasn t able to do it in words I don t know.

PS: I don t play this game since yesterday nor since a couple months.


Its more like you just need to spend more time in the game. Never said you were bad. You dont need to be amazing at the game to understand balance. As funny as it sounds most people who are incharge of balance for a game are far form the best in the world. Because that account for a number of variables. While looking at balance heads for Relic doesnt say much, other games like TWW2, Dota2, (to some extent) LoL, Starcraft etc have balance heads and teams that imo make the game balanced and are not the best player and some are not really good players.

How do they balance the game? by watching people play their game, they dont only look at the feed back that they get from their games. They implement new stuff or change items/ abilities around because sometimes it needs to happen but they do so in a way that does not harm the "feel" of a unit or change too much in what the hero's design is meant to be. If you want a REALLY good example of this look up "The History or Riki." They pretty much changed the hero (imo) completely but still stuck to the hero's intended design, made his abilities seem natural a fit his sneaky or "surprise\ assassin" type nature.

Thus i will say it one more time, while having some wargears to change the role of a hero is good sometimes, having wargears that further increase the capabilities of the role change whilst keeping the initial intended design of the hero is plan broken. That's why imo allowing the Apo to have a jump pack is a bad idea. He is not a melee hero, he is a healer/ support hero. It is not a disruptive hero hero and annoying your back line, he is meant to make his army annoyingly tanky. Giving him the jump pack allows him to annoy your back line and tie things up while still being able make his army tanky is OP. You will understand that when you get the experience and time spend in the game. You will start to figure how that sometimes you JUST purchased the wrong unit, or you will realize you should have JUST backed off. Experience = Learning about the game makes your understanding the game better. When you understand the game better you will naturally get better.

In closing just play the game, and have each match, win or lose, think about what you could have done instead. BTW i hardly ever play this game any more except help this mod and work on my own (if you want some tasty imbalance look at that since i haven't updated it in awhile).
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby LordKira007 » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 4:06 pm

Codex wrote:Ok let me try a different tack.

NoSkill, there are a few things that people are picking up on that is causing this thread to become a quagmire.

1. Every single one of your posts is in Balance discussion (even going back to 2016). This is an issue because for me, even as a veteran of DOW2 from all the way back in 2008, my first port of call if I'm having a problem is I assume my problem is strategic: I could play better, I'm making some kind of macro mistake. Your tendency to post in balance discussions shows that you are quick to move past the strategic consideration and offer balance changes.

In addition to this, there have been a couple of times when you've shown your concerns don't revolve around game design or balance. For example, the jump pack suggestion for Apo was described as nice, and you wanted Apo to get an offensive option, It just shows a misunderstanding from a categorical perspective. Apo is designed by his ability to stick to the map and support his army, giving him an offensive option makes no sense.

Also, why is "- Looks cool with Blood Angel scheme + ASM combo." appearing in balance discussions? I specifically wrote the balance discussion rules to clarify that rule of cool has ZERO weight in this forum.

2. A cursory search of your posts on this site shows you never- NEVER back down. You never change your mind. You never even acknowledge someone else's well-made argument. Your threads, and indeed your posts, are not Balance Discussion, it is distinctly "Balance as NoSkill sees it", because you're always countering someone else's point. Or if you don't think that this path will lead anywhere, you simply move onto a different suggestion:

A sample of your posts:

"AC has nothing to do with marks... you're not using your faction properly"
"Still I fail to see how that makes it bad"
"Scout melee damage: is pathetic. Scouts in their vanilla state are bad units"
"Because I believe..."
"Cegorach must be proud of you"
"Can't you read?!!!... Ideas don t come perfectly up and need to be moulded through discussion into the right form."
"If I familiarize more, that would be incest.
Nobody (should) exspect his suggestions to be perfect hits. That s why they can be discussed here, can t they?

And don t worry, I am already hardened by the DoW III forums for this job ;)"

In fact, these quotes are from 7 back-to-back posts by you in May 2018.

So here's the crux of the issue. You claim you're throwing your ideas so they can be moulded by good balance discussion. But when the vast majority of contributors to this forum take issue with certain parts of your ideas, you will fight tooth and nail to ensure your ideas never get moulded by others.

Maybe take a hint: if many people from different backgrounds are talking to you and responding to your points the same way, maybe it isn't everyone else... maybe it has something to do with what you're doing.

3. You claim to listen, but it feels like you don't:

"I do listen to fair points, not to "more experienced player = automatically right"."
"I don t care for their experience, but for the validity of their points. I know that experience sometimes equals validity in wisdom, but I don t count on that usually."
"Have you seen, how much my list of proposals has changed??"

If you look at the Apo thread as a whole as an example, your posts have been along the lines of:

I think this. And this is why I think I'm right.
You're wrong. I disagree with this this and this.
Okay so no one wants this, well how about this? Ok, well how about this suggestion or this suggestion?

We've basically had 5 pages of this. There's a reason why this thread is so long yet we've basically not gotten any further.

Overall, the feeling I get is that no amount of my posting is going to convince you that SC and melee option Apo is fine. And I think a lot of people have the same feeling. The whole thread's premise is that Apo's melee options are UP and hence we should buff them, but instead of the discussion being centred on this premise, you're too busy jumping between suggestions in order to improve Apo's melee potential, assuming the premise to be true.

So no, not everything that you're posting is awful. It's your attitude to other people's posts that is problematic. So yeah, people are going to get frustrated with your posting style.

If you disagree with what I'm saying, show me one post which you've written where you say: yep, fair enough, that was a good point. I was wrong.
I have to say I am impressed with how calmly u analyzed this and gave a logical and constructive criticism to it.
Hope this post open your eyes NoSkill and help u make ur posts better and more effective than it is in its current state
Don't let anyone tell u to stop posting this isn't a dictatorship but at the same time Take the time to take fair points into consideration and have a good Ear towards the words of the Experienced players cuz believe me they know waay better than us and some of them have analyzed some heroes to oblivion so they know and understand almost how every single tactic is done with them so Experience isn't something to brush off that easily and as Codex said when it is so many different people (experienced or not) say we think this is wrong U gotta hold back abit and rethink your ideas and suggestions cuz most likely they are the faulty ones not the others' Opinion. Again this should in no way discourage you from posting but hopefully Encourage you to take more sensible approaches to your posts and suggestions as Codex has already mentioned.
Have a good day ^_^
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 4:18 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:So basically everything I said was terrible and I need to get better?


Yes.

Sorry, but I don't act on this basis.


Then you aren't going to get better at an appreciable rate. When someone who is new to the game is struggling with a certain commander, it almost always comes down to strategy. You aren't in a position where you can say your failures can be blamed on the game design.

Piano proved me kinda wrong ingame; why he wasn t able to do it in words I don t know.

Bingo - he showed you through hands-on experience - people have tried to explain it to you with words and it was frustratingly hard to do. Piano has been going around stomping face with the apo quite fine, no stupid jetpack needed, because he is a high-level player who knows how to use him. You could play that well too if you invested the time and effort and accepted that the problem is your play style, not the design of the apo.


Part of me wishes the dev team would do a 1-week long patch where they implement every insane balance suggestion by the forums so we could all see how terrible the ideas were.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Black Relic » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 4:58 pm

^^^ I was actually considering making a quick Elite mirror mod but with jump pack Apo so he could understand that it would be too good and/or not needed in high level play. But i was quickly discouraged because i would have to make it lol.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Atlas » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 6:49 pm

Black Relic wrote:^^^ I was actually considering making a quick Elite mirror mod but with jump pack Apo so he could understand that it would be too good and/or not needed in high level play. But i was quickly discouraged because i would have to make it lol.


It's really not THAT hard to do, mostly a copy/paste job for a wargear that grants the leap ability (like from asm). I don't even think you need the pack itself, just the ability.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 6:54 pm

Don't forget melta damage on heavy flamers 8-)
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Crewfinity » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 7:27 pm

back to the topic of Apo gear options...

Sanguine Chainsword/Combat Stims/Purification Rites looking pretty strong here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Z4cVsyYVE
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Black Relic » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 8:26 pm

Atlas wrote:
Black Relic wrote:^^^ I was actually considering making a quick Elite mirror mod but with jump pack Apo so he could understand that it would be too good and/or not needed in high level play. But i was quickly discouraged because i would have to make it lol.


It's really not THAT hard to do, mostly a copy/paste job for a wargear that grants the leap ability (like from asm). I don't even think you need the pack itself, just the ability.



Yea but id have to spend time DOING it ya know.

Oddnerd wrote:Don't forget melta damage on heavy flamers 8-)


O gosh i forgot about that lol.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 8:30 pm

Alright let's move this thread along content wise please.

A big part of the reason that this thread is still open is that I would like for NoSkill to have an opportunity to respond. But in terms of content there's not been much talk of Apothecary things for a while now.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Forestradio » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 8:43 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:- Makes it easier to play an melee apo (follow ASM in, disrupt etc.).Still apo is relatively squishy and has not as potent weaponry, so balance shouldn t be bent too much.
- provides mobility an utility
- has a lot less abuse potential ; with pack needing the wargear slot, max thing apo can do is go for stims and bolter and kait.
- Would bring fresh air to the apo-play to make him not only an support hero, but an hero with (lesser) support and more direct impact.
(- Looks cool with Blood Angel scheme + ASM combo.)
the last two points are not arguments. In fact none of this stuff is an argument, "less abuse potential" than what exactly? what apothecary accessories are considered abuse?
yes a jump pack provides mobility and utility i think we can all understand that, what glaring need does the apo have for those specific things? what are specific compositions that require him to have this accessory? what build orders as apo are not working that would work if he had a jump pack? What matchups or anti-apothecary strategies from other races might become problematic if the apothecary can jump? How might you affect the balance of his other wargears in terms of what is purchased?

give us something like this:

Jump pack | __ requisition __ power | t2 accessory

Grants the Assault Jump ability. Soar to the targeted location and land, dealing weapon knockback to all enemy units in radius __. Range __, __ energy cost, __ cooldown.

and that's just the bare minimum, providing replays of some skilled players will also be helpful

Crewfinity wrote:back to the topic of Apo gear options...

Sanguine Chainsword/Combat Stims/Purification Rites looking pretty strong here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Z4cVsyYVE
lol
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 10:23 pm

We went along perfectly and I had no trouble till this page;

Except piano, everybody stayed on point and made valid points. And even piano then did something more then just bitch and played with me a few games, tho it took him an age and would probably not have been needed, if he would have actually discussed.
Then Oddnerd came and started it all over again, with several folks jumping the train (Kira and Black Relic).

I do not work on listen and believe, exspecially not by people I don t know and who come up with no arguments other then " u just suck, get better n00b" and "Nobody agrees with u", no matter how they state this.

And I am capable of changing my mind, that´s why I did not press the issue further on SC and now have to agree, that rites on their own are good as they are ( piano showed me the chain knockback with rites-ASM-Scouts ingame, tho he could have just stated it).
Tho I always said, that rites in combo could have an additional effect, so he kinda missed the point anyway.
Ffs, I even discussed about the APA, even tho I stated it´s fine to me.
I always came back on point, so what more do you want in an not yet ended discussion such as this??

Regarding this, should I update the original post?

Also @Oddnerd, tf u say I´m salty because I lose???
I said in the first post, that Apo is not weak, but plays too 1-dimensional,certain options are quiet niche and seldom seen, in contrary to Armor of Apothecarion, Advanced med and bolter. And this is boring to face again and again.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 10:41 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:I said in the first post, that Apo is not weak, but plays too 1-dimensional,certain options are quiet niche and seldom seen, in contrary to Armor of Apothecarion, Advanced med and bolter. And this is boring to face again and again.


Then the problem is the internal balance of his existing wargear. Re-balancing his wargear would be a better solution, instead of giving him a wargear that doesn't fit his style as a support commander.

Tho I always said, that rites in combo could have an additional effect, so he kinda missed the point anyway.


Could, but not should.

And I am capable of changing my mind

I doubt it, you haven't shown that tendency yet. Back when I was new to this mod I also had some dumb fucking ideas about how the game could change, and I'm glad none of them made it into the mod. I think the worst by far was giving sentinels a melee attack. Now that I've sunk hundreds of hours into elite mod I'm glad those suggestions were not taken seriously. I got better and now my view of the balance of the game is much different.
Last edited by Oddnerd on Tue 17 Jul, 2018 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby egewithin » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 10:57 pm

Can I jump in, for a second?

@NoSkill, you are the only forum member that I see no hope. Being able to write stupid arguments gently and allowing us to discuss stupid arguments; doesn't change the fact that your arguments are totally garbage. Lets look back to your past

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3830 --- This post is edited, you removed detection on Predator request.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2718
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These are all the topics that you have posted, and pretty much all of your request. I can clearly say that over 90% of your arguments are garbage, and very funny. The sad part is, our moderetors are gentle towards you, and allowing you to post stupid things here. Don't let them to decive you, you ahve never asked for something decent.

As other forum members stated, your arguments are totally garbage. Asking stupid stuff and trying to justify them is not going to work, ever.
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Black Relic
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Black Relic » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 11:09 pm

Lets not divulge into attacking guy.

But Noskill...i have NEVER said you were bad. In fact i dont care if you are, and i have already mentioned that. You could be decent or good at the game. But your idea on balancing and suggestions is askew regardless of your level of play. This is why i suggest getting more time and experience playing the game. Play Apo more, try to learn him. Since it is a game try weird builds like 4 scouts, devs and/or ASM. You could find something worth while. But it requires a good amount of time for you to go out a learn how to use a hero properly.

Imo if you can pull of weird builds and still almost win then you are on the right track. One of the best versions of this is in Indrid's channel when Tex stayed t1 the entire game in 1v1 vs Toil (i think) and it was pretty close. It was from while back but it could still be done.

I have said enough though. I will be asking everyone a question/possible change about melee skill, leveling for heroes later.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
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TE | NoSkill
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 11:36 pm

@Forestradio

High standards you have and I shall adhere;

Title: Jumppack

T2 wargear

Cost: 100 req 30 power

Grants: "Jump"-ability and 20 energy

Ability : "Jump" to the target location", does knockback in an AoE of 7 and range of 50 max and 15 min; Costs 55 energy

Allows the apo, to become an agressive, risky supporter rather then an defensive, save one (with bolter) by going easier into melee and easier able to escape it, supporting trough disruption and beeing able to manouver faster.

Sanguine chainsword:would still work preatty much the same, with it the apo would be more annoying in the backline (hindering him to support tho)
Customized Stormbolter: Would function the same, yet apo wouldn t be able to support as good as before for trading mobility. Retreat wipes may be more possible due to high dps.
Anointed power axe Would work best, restoring energy and is the only option that allows for an more supportive apo with pack.

Armor of purity: Would work , due to providing CD on heal and no new ability, tho apo may not have energy neccesarily
Combat stims : Without APA this wouldn t work, coz apo would lack the energy to put heal and stims out after jump on low-mid level.
Armor of the Apothecarion Could work well with APA, without it not due to "advanced healing" eating lotz of energy.

The apo can still get focused down, as his hp remain untouched vanilla, He is no melee monster and has no weapons nor abilities to let him become one, so it is still risky to go into melee even with initial disruption.
It will make it harder tho, to go with an ranged, exspecially setup-team, heavy build as the enemy

It also cancels rites, advanced gear and vials, as they occupy the same slot. It also allows him not, to use many abilities immediatly, due to the jump draining energy and the APA beeing the only way to regain it quick, which puts him at an lot higher risk then the save stormbolter.
Would synergize decent with ASM (apo cant dump all on them immediatly), tho with pack the apo could lead. So ASM might not even be neccessary to deal with 1 set-up.

Would fit the theme of the highly adaptable Astartes with apo not only beeing pure support and still an fully capable marine and fighter, while also allowing to bring some fresh air into apo play while not interfering with his support theme.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 11:53 pm

Take an closer look into my previous threads:

I orignially started out reasoning with lore and now I´m fully onto reasoning with gameplay. I also am not as stubborn as before or we would still argue over the first resistance I encountered and this thread would probably have been locked.

I also mainly try thematic builds (with the appropriate schems ofc), whose usefulness depends on the MU. It is interesting tho to watch how they perform


For example;
Blood Angels Death company build

Hero; Apo with SC, stims and rites.

T1: Tacs into double ASM, Tacs sometimes with flamer
T2: ASM one seargent/bomb ( both in the end), scouts with sniper, tacs with launcher, librarian with force staff.
T3: Termies and tanks

+ liberal usage of "Angels of Death" with pod sometimes.


Besides, how clear do you want to see it, when I changed my mind?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Atlas » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 11:56 pm

Meh, I don't see how the jump pack makes apo any better of a melee fighter. I mean, I guess he can jump setups or something. But it doesn't address the main issue of the fact that most people prefer the apo to just not get shot at all, which is easier in range.

Maybe we just nerf the bolter at this rate. It's already bordering on the "not as intended" area and we only made the change in the first place because chain kbs were never fun. Maybe switch it to suppression instead?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 18 Jul, 2018 12:01 am

Would a 90% dmg reduction on full auto fire and removing the aoe so it only disrupts single targets work?

EDIT - without even playing, here are 2 concerns about the jumppack change:

1 - Now the apo can counter setup teams, which means if he has an ASM, they could counter probably 3 SUTs between the two of them.

2 - Good look ever winning a melee when your opponent has 2 jump disruptions, rites, and merciless strike. Nothing but nobs and termies are gonna win against that shit.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby LOCALgHOST » Wed 18 Jul, 2018 12:27 am

Atlas wrote:Meh, I don't see how the jump pack makes apo any better of a melee fighter. I mean, I guess he can jump setups or something. But it doesn't address the main issue of the fact that most people prefer the apo to just not get shot at all, which is easier in range.

Maybe we just nerf the bolter at this rate. It's already bordering on the "not as intended" area and we only made the change in the first place because chain kbs were never fun. Maybe switch it to suppression instead?


it will cripple bolter to the ground - apo can't counter CL and BC then
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Psycho » Wed 18 Jul, 2018 12:45 am

Atlas wrote:Maybe we just nerf the bolter at this rate. It's already bordering on the "not as intended" area and we only made the change in the first place because chain kbs were never fun. Maybe switch it to suppression instead?


n1bba no just put my suggestion in

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