Apothecary things

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
User avatar
Black Relic
Level 4
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon 29 Jul, 2013 3:05 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Black Relic » Sun 29 Jul, 2018 8:35 am

Part 2 (wouldn't let me post it all at once lol)

TE | NoSkill wrote:
MU: Orks vs SM

Build; scouts with shotguns, 2x tacs with flamers/seargents, devastators into dreadnaught /plasmadev, then Termies or tanks

vs Waaghboss, 2x shootas and sluggas fully+ painboy, tankbustas and deffdread and wartrukk into nobz.
vs Mek, 2x shootas + sluggas fully, lootas, deffdread, stickbommaz and tankbustas into nobz or tanks/battlewaggon
vs Commando Nob, 2x shootas 2x sluggas fully, 2x tankbustas and wartukk into flashgitz or kommandos.



Ok ASM are kinda needed vs orks as APO imo. And Rites are good but Vials with enough good control (it can be hard to manage that) it pretty devastating.

Flamers??? No sir! Sluggas are fire resistance infantry. Better to save that money and spend it somewhere else.

2 devestators can be REALLY hard to deal with for orks in t1. An option could be 3 scouts into Dev, ASM, Dev. But you have to play defensively. And only get one shotguns and be VERY good about focus fire and using cover. IMO can only work vs warboss (maybe mek only if stormboys are being fielded though).

Dread with AC should be an Auto- purchase. Multimelta is also pretty god since then Orks cannot be too aggressive with Truck play. So long and the Dread is being supported.

Pdevs opens you up too much I'm. Whirlwind can work pretty well because it is mobile and can do some damage vs the Truck.


TE | NoSkill wrote:
Apo; SC in T1, then pack and stims.

scouts as anti-melee and dmg dealers with tacs and apo trying to tie up supported by devs in T1. Flamers work well against orkz, coz they have relatively low health and can supplement a powerbash.
In T2, pack would allow apo to get on shootas or tankbustas/stickbommaz and tie them up or duel the pain-/weirdboy and draining their energy in the worst cast. Meanwhile Assault Dread would decimate sluggas and waaghboss and plasma dev lend support, effectively overpowering the orcs with the apo disturbing the backline and facilitating a fast advance of the tacs into close range or melee.
Apo can hunt weirdboy/dok or mek, combo with assasins knife prolly not tho.
Can drain energy from weirdboy/dok or warboss or combat flash gitz and peel a bit extra dmg on nobs.

Sluggas would be focused down by tacs an eat KB from scouts, if needed. Waaghboss will get kited, Kommando/Mek/Dok tied up, same with Shootas.
Devastators for better control, Advanced targeting, if extra dmg is needed. Lascannon only, if orcs "spam" vehicles.
Dreadnaught as anti-slugga/Waaghboss/deff-dread, plasma devs to constantly pressure orcs.
That would rely on some good control work tho.

Nobs in T3 would need to be dragged down by massed fire and controll, apo jump disruption would help here and power melee can be nice.
Flash Gitz blob would need to be charged and tied up with sluggas focused down, jumpdisruption would help here.
Battlewaggon/tank then with lascannon supported by stims or heal in case of Zzap or explosive shot.



Tankbusters are kinda bad vs SM without Truck support. Plus Weirdboy. That one purchase will destroy a melee Jumping APO. Yes the Axe will drain his energy. But only 10 energy. And the Weirdboy gains energy mainly from the use of the ability Waagh!! So the Weirdboy will ALWAYS have energy. the APA will not stop the abilities from the Weird boy too much.

Warboss gets Special Shoota or Big Stomp. Melee APO is dead. Plus. You are in t2 with melee APO do you REALLY want to fight Ork melee in t2??? Are you REALLY sure you want power klaws to the face of your APO? You can to be shanked by the K nob? You want to be swarmed by Sluggas with their nob? Are you REALLY sure you want a deffdread to smack him in the face? Truck will save Shootas btw. You wont hit them with the APO much and if you get ASM with Bomb are going to be murdered by the focus fire and t2 Sluggas.

You are telling me you are join to jump the APO in to Nobs for disruption when Rites to that better and does not put the APO at risk of dying. Are you really sure that's what you want the melee Apo to do with his time? You are not going to convince me ever to have the APO melee a squad of t3 nobs. No fucking way dude. No fucking way is that something you should ever do. Even if there is only 2 models left and under 600 HP. Fuck no dude. APO will probably lose even that fight.



TE | NoSkill wrote:
Against Eldar apo is really risky, against warlock it is suicide. After getting raped, I think stormbolter is the best option here, except maybe against farseer (tho doombringer is nearly as big as an fuck you as merchiless blade).


Apo is no risky. Melee Apo is not too bad vs Eldar. But You have to have Rites. Stormbolter is best option though. Jump Pack Bolter APO is best option period. Melee Apo is bad if you are trying to be aggressive. Stormbolter is better because you can still support ASM but you can reposition the APO to be behind cover and be flanking the enemy. Plus he can still force melee. Melee Jumping APO = Bad.

TE | NoSkill wrote:So an jumppack would amplyfy the effectiveness of the bolter. Bolter has high dmg and stun ability, which denies the eldar momentum and plays on their low health.



Yep it will be best. But keep in mind it come in t2 too though. Are you 100% sure you want a support commander in t2 jumping behind elder to support ASM just to get piercing damage on DA's?

TE | NoSkill wrote:

SM vs Eldar

Build 1-1-1 with shotgun-scouts into assault cannon dread and/or Whirlwind and sternguards ; then termies with flamer.
Apo with purity armor and stormbolter, then jumppack. MAAAAAYBEEE the SC.

vs warlock with merciless

farseer with doombringer

WSE with advanced targeting



Ok so ASM is an iffy choice. Can work vs Warlock and Farseer. But IMO rites is a must. Stops shees for a bit and heals the momentarily stops the MASSIVE amount of damage they are going to take from Eldar.

BTW WSE will almost always get Heavy Gadge vs Apo. The KB to keep the Apo from healing effectively.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Initial engagement is lost anyway vs warlock. Vs Farseer prolly doable, put all dakka on banshees, then DA´s. Vs WSE it would only be slightly better then Warlock.


Huh? Shotguns needs to be your first purchase and you have to start the fight. Not wait for the Warlock to sprint. It is possible to win though, you need another scout though. Farseer? Easy. You see guide go off? Back off. Farseer can fleet in but she wont do any damage with APO aura around. Wait for Shotguns. WSE? You might lose here too. Warp Spider is going to tie up scouts or tacs as Shees move in. DAs will focus scouts or APO.

TE | NoSkill wrote:If Eldar goes heavy ranged with 2x platforms and or rangers, Apo goes Bolter and ASM, then Devs. Scouts with shotguns are mandatory to deal with shees and can flank and look for rangers.



If Eldar goes 2 Shurican you go one scout sniper imo. They will respond with a Ranger or play statically with DA's energy shield. You can then maneuver.

Ok dude you a mentrioned ASM WAY too much as am I though. Devestators are a unit dude. If they go 2 Shurican and you go scout sniper and Devs you dictate a lot if they play statically. You will bleed them pretty hard. You don't have to target Set ups. You see those nice looking DA's? Your tacs flamers are constantly trying to hit their power. (only if you both went that heavy t1).

TE | NoSkill wrote:healing Aura will help a bit at least.
If Eldar goes shooty with 3x DA´s, Apo could go melee, tho bolter would still be better to pick of models.


Um no. 3 DA's will shred apart APO. You do know he has 600 Hp level 1 right? If he uses Heal on himself you lost the first flight. Sometimes that is not the case though. Rarely but it does happen.


TE | NoSkill wrote:
In T2 Apo would support ASM or Tacs to stay alive or deal more dmg, aswell as emergency melee to tie disrupt things and tie them up for Sterns/dread to shoot it or other support to arrive.


Every time you mentioned a build ASM have been here. I asked you to not mention ASM with your builds and tactics etc. But they are here. I can accept one the first time you mentioned them. But you did so twice. I conclude right here that ASM are required for the Melee APO to be useful. That judgement of mine as not changed the moment I saw the Jump Pack Suggestion.

Now lets say you didn't have the ASM here. Different story right? What would you do instead? That's is something you need to answer too. Not Just focus on the Jump Pack. Again, I mentioned this and ill quote myself

"1: I want why you would get the Jump Pack over other wargear options and WHY they fall short. You would get the Jump Pack verse what because of WHY.

You have hardly done this. This was the BIGGEST test to see if you really understood your suggestion or not.

The other two point were for you to elaborate on the 1st point. Because that is how you really start to see what the core of a suggestion it. You cannot only look at the wargear and what it does. You have to look at the hero and what that hero COULD do in that situation you are struggling with. Is the Jump Pak the best option. Is there something better? Would a Jump Pack actually be impactful and change my disadvantage to an advantage and put me into the lead. Those are what I wanted.

Now I do acknowledge what you have done though. I think it was a step in the right direction. What you did in responding to me is I think the best response you have made yet. While it was not perfect it was more insight full toward the direction you wanted the APO to go. rather than just saying "I like to hit thing in the face." I think you next thing you could work on is also put in your arguments how the enemy will react to a purchase.
Or at least how you would expect them to react.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Btw, do flame dmg more dmg the closer u get ?


No. It doesn't increase.


Ill say this at the end for those who don't want to read this ENITRE thing. I don't think the Jump Pack Apo is necessary and I can't be swayed anymore. It relies too much on ASM to get work done and the wargear option comes out too late in t2 and won't have enough impact at all for the desired effect
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
User avatar
TE | NoSkill
Level 3
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed 27 Jul, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Sun 29 Jul, 2018 4:44 pm

@Black_Relic

Thanks for the update on the codex regarding IME;
I will have to adjust to more detailed posts,true. It s been awhile since I got out of school, so I need to refresh my skills.
I assumed, you meant to me to show builds without the apo depending on ASM, not specificialyl builds without ASM, my fault.

the only way without ASM would be to go heavy controll wiht 2x devs/scouts-shotguns/tacs plasma/ librarian/termies /WW so the apo can pick his fights more effectively and draw the attention of the enemie´s army for the rest to shoot at the enemy.
Or an mobile build with 2x scouts/2x ASM/ razorback/ librarian/ tank to roam around as assault force (prolly also doable to an degree with tacs). Use commander specific pod for hairy situations to reenforce and KB aswell as Angels of Death and librarian force barrier. But ASM again.
Even with ASM Apo wouldn t initiate necessarily.

Regardless, thank you for your patience and advice. I will heed them next time.
I will not push the jumppack any further, for I have made my points.

Any other gear, besides the bolter-ability nerf(?), that needs changing, as conclusion on my part?
User avatar
Nurland
Moderator
Posts: 1343
Joined: Mon 04 Feb, 2013 5:25 pm
Location: Eye of Error
Contact:

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Nurland » Sun 29 Jul, 2018 5:45 pm

Deleted some comments that weren't exactly useful for the balance discussion here.
#noobcodex
Atlas

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Atlas » Sun 29 Jul, 2018 8:22 pm

Black Relic, tldr. Are you saying that Apo's IME is adding 1.5 energy regen?

EDIT: Took a look at it appears to add .15, so that appears to be the case. I need to consult changelog notes to see if that was a change that was never properly updated in the codex.
User avatar
Black Relic
Level 4
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon 29 Jul, 2013 3:05 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Black Relic » Sun 29 Jul, 2018 9:13 pm

Ye I was sure at one point it was 1.5 so I looked into the elite codex and then our files. And noticed that. I hate to do this to myself but I might have to go through every changlelog to see if everything is actually up to date.

@ No skill

Well I wanted the APO to not need ASM. But ASM was a staple to make the wargear work as intended for a melee threat. The Bolter was safer since it gave much more utility without risking the APO going down. Which is game changing. While he does had Blessing to get him back its not exactly spam able.

Right the only way to control the enemy is 2 devs. You can try to use 2 scouts but it is pretty difficult. But you could also have 2 scouts with shotguns plus rites is you want to go every on the KB. But that wont work vs every match up. You can go 2 whirlwinds if you never got devs but then they become massive targets since they are not exactly tank nor fast. Plus that's a fair amount of resources if it gets compromised.

As for the Stormbolter ability. ld rather it just be movement speed reduction more damage, and the target cannot charge or gain a speed increase from the charge. Would still effect melee and dangerous leader and essentially get the same result but now its easier to predict, mod and effects even tanky heroes.

"It s been awhile since I got out of school, so I need to refresh my skills."

Same. Semester starts soon and I need to get back into the habit of reading what I am writing. To make sure it not only makes sense but easy to read, since, in my experience, its hard to read something that errors and I tend to have them littered everywhere lol
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
User avatar
Codex
Moderator
Posts: 569
Joined: Wed 01 May, 2013 5:57 pm
Location: Bristol, UK
Contact:

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 12:00 pm

I'll reiterate this one final time. The Balance discussion forum is here for productive discussion for better balance of the mod. That's the only purpose it serves. It's not here for you to lord how much better at the game you are over people. It's not here so you can sit around gawking at some person's terrible argumentation, stubbornness, logic, character etc.

In light of the purpose of this forum, it's up to Black Relic (or any other poster) to say whatever it is they're trying to say for as long as they're willing to say it. Replies have that same prerogative so long as they don't break the house rules. NoSkill (or any other poster) is free to argue whatever he likes for as long as he likes.

So if you have nothing to add to the balance discussion itself, don't bother posting. First warning for those who did.
Righteousness does not make right
Antandron
Level 2
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat 15 Jul, 2017 11:50 am

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Antandron » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 12:31 pm

Was the suggestion of giving the Apo a default 2-handed bolter taken seriously? It would be more appropriate since he is more suited to ranged combat. He could be 20dps ranged piercing and 19dps melee instead of the current 16dps ranged and 25.4dps melee. The heavy bolter could be range 38 to keep in line with other 2-handed ranged bolters.

Therefore:
Basic Apo: 20dps ranged, 19dps melee.
Chainsword: 16dps ranged, 38dps melee.
MCB: 32dps ranged, 19dps melee.
Atlas

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Atlas » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 7:38 pm

Antandron wrote:Was the suggestion of giving the Apo a default 2-handed bolter taken seriously? It would be more appropriate since he is more suited to ranged combat. He could be 20dps ranged piercing and 19dps melee instead of the current 16dps ranged and 25.4dps melee. The heavy bolter could be range 38 to keep in line with other 2-handed ranged bolters.

Therefore:
Basic Apo: 20dps ranged, 19dps melee.
Chainsword: 16dps ranged, 38dps melee.
MCB: 32dps ranged, 19dps melee.


Well ok, but what does that change really? It just sounds like a flat buff to me in every way tbh. Wasn't this whole thread about how the melee apo was not as good as a ranged apo and the reasons for that?
Antandron
Level 2
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat 15 Jul, 2017 11:50 am

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Antandron » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 8:04 pm

It would not change much, that is true.

Currently:
25.38dps melee
16.05dps ranged 22 range.

Alternatively:
19dps melee because Tacs are 19dps melee and he just can't be worse than a Tactical Marine can he?
14.58+dps ranged 38 range. Heavy Bolters are nearly all range 38 and Tacs are 14.58dps ranged, therefore something like 14.58 or a little bit more would make some sense. Not that lore matters much but according to common sense where the commanders are more highly skilled than generic troops.

I thought I remembered some players mention how the Apo is not suitable for melee because he is easily reduced to dangerously low HP levels and then has to heal himself instead of Tac squads. I agree and thought he would be more useful behind Tacs shooting from a distance, but the range 22 pistol is not suitable for this and who really wants the Apo to have a default 25.38dps chainsword when he can have a range 38 bolter and be crap in melee? It might be a slight buff so could be compensated for with slight nerf to the Master Crafted Bolter, which is an item that quite a few players have been grumbling about.
User avatar
TE | NoSkill
Level 3
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed 27 Jul, 2016 3:44 pm

Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 9:49 pm

Atlas wrote:
Antandron wrote:Was the suggestion of giving the Apo a default 2-handed bolter taken seriously? It would be more appropriate since he is more suited to ranged combat. He could be 20dps ranged piercing and 19dps melee instead of the current 16dps ranged and 25.4dps melee. The heavy bolter could be range 38 to keep in line with other 2-handed ranged bolters.

Therefore:
Basic Apo: 20dps ranged, 19dps melee.
Chainsword: 16dps ranged, 38dps melee.
MCB: 32dps ranged, 19dps melee.


Well ok, but what does that change really? It just sounds like a flat buff to me in every way tbh. Wasn't this whole thread about how the melee apo was not as good as a ranged apo and the reasons for that?


Technically yes
Atlas

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Atlas » Tue 31 Jul, 2018 11:42 pm

Right, and I would consider giving the default Apo a range 38 bolter would be a huge buff that potentially discounts the 125/25 cost of having to buy the Storm Bolter for that.

Which does nothing to really solve the melee/ranged Apo conundrum here.
User avatar
Psycho
Level 3
Posts: 367
Joined: Thu 24 Dec, 2015 3:08 am

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Psycho » Wed 01 Aug, 2018 12:37 am

An additional reason is that the heal is the most inefficient on himself in the early stages on top of the passive not affecting himself. You either get up to 300 heal on tacs or scouts or not even half of that on the apo, so you can't even fully heal the damage he gets when focused. The obvious choice is to keep him from getting damaged if practically reasonable and saving the heal for another unit like tacs or ASM. Increasing the heal to commander entities might affect other things later on though, like healing librarian or allied commanders. Dunno what could be done.
User avatar
Black Relic
Level 4
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon 29 Jul, 2013 3:05 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Black Relic » Wed 01 Aug, 2018 2:01 am

But units with commander armor already get an increase from the heal on top of what the heal does already. Are you suggesting that it needs an increase? at the max heal commanders get a 550 HP heal.

Imo I think each level should increase the heal actually instead of every 2 levels. for the levels 2,4,6,8,and 10 we increase the healing slightly.

At the moment every 2 level increase the heal by 30.

I suggest increasing the heal by 15 each level.

it goes.

1: 110
2: 125
3: 140
4: 155
5: 170
6: 185
7: 200
8: 215
9: 230
10: 245

Apo is good but if he cannot get any levels early game he falls too short. This I think would actually help the hero come back into the game and a healing commander. This change could actually make one good engagement increase the APOs healing prowess.

Or
The healing is % based + a set amount say 50 and that % heal increases every 2 levels and the set amount increase the set amount every other level.

and example at level 1 the healing is at 15% plus 55 hp.

The healing on tactical Marines would then heal slightly less than what it does now. The healing being 107.5. But the Healing power increases on the APO leveling and the units he is healing leveling. Making the Heal actually scale better and work on terminators a lot better which is IMO fine since the APO has no amazing way to deal with t3 melee squad like FC or TM with their unique units. Apo only has Angels of Death. Allows for a prolonged retreat. But other than that, is kinda meh. IMO it is supposed to be an offensive ability that has the capability for defensive use.

The Scaling for the Heal would go as such using every 2 levels plus 2.5 % and every other level increase the set amount by 15.

I will use level tacs as an example though. I will exclude their sergeant since he has more HP.

1: 15% plus 55 (heal on level 1 tacs 107.5) level 2 (112.75) level 3 (118.6) level 4 (124.9)

2: 15% plus 70 (heal on tacs 122.5) ( 127.75) (133.6) (139.9)

3: 17.5% plus 70 (heal on tacs 131.25) (137.375) (144.2) (151.55)

4: 17.5% plus 85 (146.25) (152.375) (159.2) (166.55)

ps. stopped doing math caz I got tired.

5: 20% plus 85 (155)

6: 20% plus 100 (170)

7: 22.5% plus 100 (178.75)

8: 22.5% plus 115 (193.75)

9: 25% plus 115 ( 202.5)

10: 25% plus 130 (217.5)

Apo has always been about keeping his units and capitalizing on how he medicates bleed and squad loses. Should we capitalize on that and allow the heal to scale on the targets level?

It would be stong level 10 though on terminators though. But imo it should, if you got Apo to level 10. The Heal would be an astounding 505 per model on the terminators. Again though I think that would be ok since Apo relies on terminators more than the other SM heroes. In comparison the heal on terminators at level one is 280. Still better than what we have now though.

Either way I think his healing could use some more level not not only scale every 2 levels but EVERY level. A good start would be 15 per level. Only level 10 heal would be better than our current APO's heal at 230.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
User avatar
Psycho
Level 3
Posts: 367
Joined: Thu 24 Dec, 2015 3:08 am

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Psycho » Wed 01 Aug, 2018 9:26 pm

Black Relic wrote:But units with commander armor already get an increase from the heal on top of what the heal does already. Are you suggesting that it needs an increase? at the max heal commanders get a 550 HP heal.


I didn't claim that on a per-model basis it didn't heal more, but it still is inefficient in the early levels since you're healing more total health on a scout or a tac, thus a more efficient use. Gets even more lopsided with how tacs have more effective health due to being heavy infantry if you're against mainly piercing damage (IE, vs IG), so you're healing them for even more in that scenario. It doesn't help that you also want to keep your apo as long as possible on the field to get more use out of the passive he's not affected by, so you really want to keep him safe from danger and use other units for tanking, units that will need the heal more than your apo if things go well, which leads to the ranged option being the safer one not only by keeping him at a distance but also sticking him in heavy cover to contribute in ranged fights and get experience himself.

I never had any problems with lategame healing on the apo, not only due to the high level heal but also due to his energy not being as precious with AME or natural regen + max energy. If it had to change I'd rather have the base heal be increased while the additional heal per level gets lowered to match up with how level 10 heal currently is for commander entities.

I'd also be against percentage-based healing since AoP already fulfills that niche, it's the go-to armor if you're fielding termies. Several times have I been on the receiving end of players being extremely pissed off at those termies being nigh-unkillable.
User avatar
Black Relic
Level 4
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon 29 Jul, 2013 3:05 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Black Relic » Sun 05 Aug, 2018 6:32 am

What? You mentioned earlier "Increasing the heal to commander entities might affect other things later on though.." so I assumed you had no idea it healed commander armor more than normal at all since you did not say "it should be increased more" or something along those lines. Nor was my comment insinuating/claiming something about healing on a per model basis or whatever. You clearly never said that. All it was wondering if
1. did you know the heal increases when used on units with commander armor?
2. If you knew it did, were you wanting an increase?

That was the question lol. As for the rest of that paragraph I touched on that in my discussions with noskill about the Jump Pack.

You did answer my question though in regard to commander armor. Increase the base heal but lower the heal increase per level to match healing provided by a level 10 APO on commander armor.

As for tyou being against the percentage thing. Yea I understand that and I know that Armor of the APO does that similarly, however with that percentage healing it is the only really armor that allows for good Termi play. Nothing else. That helps in keeping the APO one dimensional. The point of this thread in the first place was to look on two main reasons.

1:APO melee is shit

Although we have all agreed that it is fine for the most part. APA could use some love in some way but for now, is not an immediate issue.

2: Apo being way too one-dimensional.

AoAPO does not help this at all since it is by far the best Amor the APO has because it is the only one that allows the APO to capitalize one the one thing he does good at. Healing. Since that healing is percentage based Terminators benefit from it tremendously. So much that it is almost impossible to function with terminators properly without the APO's AoAPO since he relies on them SOO much in t3 imo.

While yea the healing on percentage is a bit too high perhaps, allowing his heal to also have a percentage effect could help APO become a bit more diverse in their builds especially when taking Armor of Purity into account. He could heal terminators more often and could net a larger benefit now on terminators with AoP, making is a decent choice and not "force" an APO player to get AoAPO when terminator hit the field. Since that is kinda your next purchase if you don't have it already and is always on your mind when you don't have the wargear. Combat Stims could use a slight reduction in energy. Sayyy 35 from 40? Level 2-3 APO is strained on energy unless he has IME. More of a buff for lower leveled APOs and less for Higher level APOS. Could be a good start.

Now with that being said AoAPO could use a nerf. I think the speed increase should be removed.

The complaint was that he was too slow to use the ability and would take time to catch up with the rest of his army to do some more healing. That is fine. Because as you mentioned before, people would rage at how unkillable terminators are under Advanced Healing. This nerf does not affect them being unkillable. It affects how well you can capitalize on terminator being unkillable. You cannot advance as quickly with APO any more after winning an engagement.


The other option that has come to mind is this.
IME: Increase energy regen. by 1.5 increases energy by 25.
AoAPO: healing AoE 10, heals the same rate, Lowered energy cost slightly per second to 3 from 3.5, APO is slowed by only 50%. Energy regen is still halted during the ability.

The APO can still reposition if caught out or focused. However it is easier to capitalize on the SM army due to it being slightly more blobbed up (imo is fine since the army can still maneuver fairly while even with APO moves only 50% slower). He can still wield (if the player felt compelled) a melee weapon such has the APA. This would actually be good since he can use the ability and so long he is positioned well counter initiate and effective smash things since the slow is not as bad. The SC would also be not too bad since the charge on the APO plus the slow puts him at a decent 5.5 speed. Not too fast but not slow either. The APO can still be dealt with normally but this could change how APO's work late on tin the engagement without changing his role too much. Or at all for that matter.

Or you could just toggle the AH off lol. But again that was all some theory crafting and possibilities for the APO with that change with multiple wargears. IDK if I could go into more detail though. I think you would have to use your experience from past APO games and then see if this would be a good change or make him out right bonkers, perhaps even the polar opposite.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
User avatar
Cheekie Monkie
Level 3
Posts: 362
Joined: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 2:58 pm

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Cheekie Monkie » Tue 07 Aug, 2018 4:29 pm

Apo already has a default bolter, it's his pistol :D

Seriously, it already does decent damage out of the gate. Buff plasma pistol, please? 8-)
Playing truth or dare with Diomedes: You dare? YOU DARE?!
Tinder with Diomedes: THINK YOU ARE MY MATCH?!
User avatar
Psycho
Level 3
Posts: 367
Joined: Thu 24 Dec, 2015 3:08 am

Re: Apothecary things

Postby Psycho » Tue 07 Aug, 2018 4:55 pm

Black Relic wrote:What? You mentioned earlier "Increasing the heal to commander entities might affect other things later on though.." so I assumed you had no idea it healed commander armor more than normal at all since you did not say "it should be increased more" or something along those lines. Nor was my comment insinuating/claiming something about healing on a per model basis or whatever. You clearly never said that. All it was wondering if
1. did you know the heal increases when used on units with commander armor?
2. If you knew it did, were you wanting an increase?


My bad, my bad. I should have elaborated further. It does heal more to commander armor, and at one point it can heal so much that it can bring the apo and librarian to respectable health back from damaged which is alright as it is. Healing 550hp with a heal might seem a lot but it's for commander armor that naturally involves a single model squad on top of requiring level 10 on the apo, but my concern was that if the base heal was increased and the increase per level remained the same, it might reach that point of fully healing commander armor way earlier.

An extreme example may be in team games where you are with something like a Chaos Lord or WB, and a buffed commander armor heal with level 10 apo may end up turning it into a nigh unkillable monster even when focused down, along with making the initial heal so much more effective. This is a case of 1v1 vs 2v2/3v3 balance, and I'm not entirely certain if there's a way to have the apo have a single specific heal value for himself.

This might only be a fear rather than an actual concern, since in those cases you're meant to focus fire the apo anyways which would proc a heal on himself rather than on the CL/WB. Still, because of that fear I went ahead and suggested to change the heal increase per level on commander armor to be lowered so as to still heal a respectable amount at level 10 without going overboard, which would solve the issue entirely.

Return to “Balance Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests