Apothecary things

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Nurland
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Nurland » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 3:46 pm

I always preferred Wombat Stims over AoA. Since it offers so much more wipe potential. But yes. In team games especially AoA is a good pick but saying it is the only way to go is exaggeration. You can play late game Apo without it without crippling yourself.

Sanguine is a T1 weapon. They tend to have meh scaling. If you want a T1 weapon that scales, you go bolter. To be honest, Sanguine scaling isn't even that bad in 1s. In 3s it scales poorly but I don't see that as an issue.

Axe is something I would rather see as an endgame Apo melee weapon instead of cheap T2 option. It would 0 sense to have a cheap T1 weapon with great scaling. As the weapon itself is great in T1 and earlyish T2.

Also I think someone mentioned about moving the Power Axe to T1. Axe does not belong T1 with the energy leech. MWB has energy drain but it doesn't return energy to the hero and it is a heavily priced weapon for an offensive hero.

Axe in T1 would pretty require it to be nerfed so that Apo would have even less scaling.

I would not be opposed to Axe getting a rework. AoP I am not sure about. I tend to get it pretty rarely. Sometimes when I rock Sanguine + Rites and feel like I don't have the energy on my Apo to be able to use Stims effectively enough.

Your propositions for AoP sound a bit OP. Combat Stims also maybe a bit ott.
Rites affecting the Apo as well? You mean like he gets a heal + kb + damage around him when he uses heal on any squad?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby egewithin » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 4:02 pm

First of all, I am one of the few people who belives Apo is fine and doesn't need a change. But if Atlas is also interested in talking about Apo, here goes some stuff.

It is really normal for Bolter to be a dominant choice. People play team games more often, and they don't want to risk their fragile hero like that. Bolter is dominant because it is the best option for team game. In the other hand, it might be a terrible waste in a 1v1. Buffing other weapons would not change anything other than creating broken scenarios.

I also agree with Nurland about Power Axe. If we really want to work on Apo melee, we should focus on the Axe.

Now, I want to talk about the real dominant wargear : Improved Medical Equipment. IME is like a no branier for team games since you need shitloads of energy to keep both yours and your team mates army. Stormbolter and IME are the real dominant wargears, not something special to bolter. Thats why Apo play looks so boring, because it is obivous what you are going to do / what you have to do.

I have an idea about the armors. Lets change Armor of Purity to reduce energy cost on heal ability rather than decreasing the cooldown of it. Maybe that way people will not depend on IME so much and use other wargears aswell. Because AoP starts to pay off in T2 with IME, when you have enough energy to use heal over and over again. It still costs 60 energy, and it seems like a huge waste in T1. If I won't be able to use it effectively a T1 armor in T1, why would I bother to use it in T2 when I have much better options like Armor of the Apothecarion?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 4:12 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:As I said, the melee requirement on such an squishy hero ( who you wan t to get damaged least of all) and the bad dmg is what makes it not good beyond T1. They only reason to get it is the healing, why becomes gradually less efficient, due to stronger units and weapons entering the field.

It is only chosen more often, because it makes an melee apo somewhat ok in the way of not dying immediatly, which is not enough, considering apo`s heal is tied to levels.

Anyway, let s look at the other stuff, particularly armor;

Armor of the apothecarion is still the ultimate gear, though it is expensive enough.

Combat stims are nice, the ability is good, the xtra health is nice, yet it feels a bit lacking

Armor of purity, health is ok, regen is nice and the CD to heal is ok.


What I would propose is combat stims giving the apo battleregen of 1 hp/s, 100 health and higher melee dmg. The ability seems good enough to me

For armor of purity I would say 150 hp, regen of 2 hp/s and CD decrease of all abilities by 15%, scaling by 5 % every level.
In combination with armor of purity, purification rites could affect the apo himself too or do plasma dmg.

"such an squishy hero" no hes not, position him properly
apo's heal is tied to levels yes but it doesn't mean it's still not fuckign strong even on level 1 in mid-late game

AoA is not the ultimate gear, armor of purity lets you dump bigger heals on way more useful units, a high level apo with terminators and armor of purity is fucking cancer to beat and stims offer a great damage buff, i literally bought armor of purity every single apo game in the tourney and it worked out well

stims aren't lacking, stop with the bias

stop trying to get armor of purity buffed, it's cheap and is arguably the best armor he has
puri rites affecting both the apo and a unit is just dumb and making it do plasma dmg is even dumber

after so many games with the apo in the 3v3 tourney it's easy for me to say that he's one of the strongest 3v3 heroes and with his puri rites he just dominates a lot of matchups and scales perfectly into t3 with his heals on terminators or vanguards or whatever you have and don't worry about leveling, if you play properly and dont run in first with apo you'll be leveled enough
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 4:44 pm

From what I see, the axe seems to be an really cost-effective wargear;

For 20 power you get 100 dmg per hit power melee with an drain + 15 energy back AND 100 health. It looks to me like the risky counterpart to improved medical gear. (IME).
As I see it, it is the wargear and particularly the armors, that are the problems. The apo lacks an offensive wargear to improve the potency of the axe, that s why I advocated for him to get an jumppack.

So how would it be reworked?
Egewithin mentioned lower energy costs for purity armor. Why not also bind it to the anointed poweraxe and prolly rip a bit of hp?


For armor of purity alternatively I also thought about it getting an bigger increase to CD, like 40-50 % or to affect all abilities (coz apos most potent ones are bound to armor, but that s the least option I like).

Combat stims would then be the " melee armor".
With rites I mean, that wehn apo as armor of purity equipt together with rites, he will deal knockback around himself too.
Alternatively, rites could do another dmg type (in combination).
What I also would advocate for rites is, that its effect may be extended to combat stims also.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Black Relic » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 6:19 pm

If people want the Axe to be a bit better, how about we do something similar to what we did with the power sword. Change the plasma pistol to a bolt pistol?

The reason why we did this was because the powersword upgrade was supposed to help the FC get levels and solid hit in. But plasma pistol was bad due to its damage being pretty terrible unless another HI faction especially in t1. The Bolt pistol change actually didn't even change the damage done to HI didn't change much. The bolt pistols did 20.636 damage per hit to HI armor while the plasma pistol did 22.5 damage.

Since the change allowed the wargear to more versatile vs infantry factions, i think it would do the same to the Axe. Imo it starts there. I believe its better to take small steps to flesh something out rather than make drastic changes.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 6:24 pm

Black Relic wrote:If people want the Axe to be a bit better, how about we do something similar to what we did with the power sword. Change the plasma pistol to a bolt pistol?

The reason why we did this was because the powersword upgrade was supposed to help the FC get levels and solid hit in. But plasma pistol was bad due to its damage being pretty terrible unless another HI faction especially in t1. The Bolt pistol change actually didn't even change the damage done to HI didn't change much. The bolt pistols did 20.636 damage per hit to HI armor while the plasma pistol did 22.5 damage.

Since the change allowed the wargear to more versatile vs infantry factions, i think it would do the same to the Axe. Imo it starts there. I believe its better to take small steps to flesh something out rather than make drastic changes.


Why not increase the dmg done by the plasma pistol?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Black Relic » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 6:35 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Black Relic wrote:If people want the Axe to be a bit better, how about we do something similar to what we did with the power sword. Change the plasma pistol to a bolt pistol?

The reason why we did this was because the powersword upgrade was supposed to help the FC get levels and solid hit in. But plasma pistol was bad due to its damage being pretty terrible unless another HI faction especially in t1. The Bolt pistol change actually didn't even change the damage done to HI didn't change much. The bolt pistols did 20.636 damage per hit to HI armor while the plasma pistol did 22.5 damage.

Since the change allowed the wargear to more versatile vs infantry factions, i think it would do the same to the Axe. Imo it starts there. I believe its better to take small steps to flesh something out rather than make drastic changes.


Why not increase the dmg done by the plasma pistol?


Might become too good imo. If we make the damage from the plasma pistol good enough to efficiently peel off infantry models it would be huge damage to HI that it would out shine the MCB. 30.8 piercing damage it a good amount for a melee hero to the efficiently kill kiting infantry units. If we put the same of similar damage on the plasma pistol.....50% more damage from the pistol vs HI infantry would be bonkers.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 9:02 pm

Black Relic wrote:
Might become too good imo. If we make the damage from the plasma pistol good enough to efficiently peel off infantry models it would be huge damage to HI that it would out shine the MCB. 30.8 piercing damage it a good amount for a melee hero to the efficiently kill kiting infantry units. If we put the same of similar damage on the plasma pistol.....50% more damage from the pistol vs HI infantry would be bonkers.


Do both have the same fire intervalls?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Black Relic » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 9:31 pm

i think so yea, or its pretty similar. Either way though increasing plasma pistol damage is a big no no in my book. The bolt pistol would be a big enough buff for now. See how that effects the wargear and work from there.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Dark Riku » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 9:46 pm

Codex wrote:So if your post is about a player rather than Apothecary things, don't bother posting it.

Let's try to get the discussion back to something useful for the balance of the mod please.
I missed you around Codex <3


PianoMan wrote:after so many games with the apo in the 3v3 tourney it's easy for me to say that he's one of the strongest 3v3 heroes
That's strange, with my experience I would say quite the opposite.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 9:49 pm

To come back to the point, what do you think about the armor reworks(?).


For armor of purity alternatively I also thought about it getting an bigger increase to CD, like 40-50 % or to affect all abilities (coz apos most potent ones are bound to armor, but that s the least option I like).

Combat stims would then be the " melee armor".
With rites I mean, that wehn apo as armor of purity equipt together with rites, he will deal knockback around himself too.
Alternatively, rites could do another dmg type (in combination).
What I also would advocate for rites is, that its effect may be extended to combat stims also.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby boss » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 10:20 pm

There nothing wrong with the armors of the apothecary

Armor of purity normal goes with anointed power axe for the energy transfer and some damage, then the reduce cooldown of the heal from Armor of purity allows for faster healing this goes with asm as you can guess, purification rites fits this build to, or you see the bolter and improved medical equipment and just sit back and spam out heals.

Combat Stimulant Equipment go can with any build you get to buff a unit to great levels not all the stats are on the codex it don't need buffs it's very good.

Armor of the Apothecarion is very simply get a blob and use it to heal all it fine.

So no his armors are fine.

His weakest point about him is his heal which should be his strength his heal is meh and need levels to be any good luck getting him to level 3 and above without his bolter is one of the reason why its seen so much it lets him level up easier
Forums great more stuff to talk about.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 10:27 pm

Spam out heals is not really possible, as you will run out of energy after 2, presuming you managed to extend the engagement for 16 seconds.

Combat stims extra effects are nice, but boring. To bring some more specialisation into it (for an melee apo) would be be beneficial.


I usually manage with my builds to get at least to level 4 with apo, so healing scal is ok.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 10:43 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Spam out heals is not really possible, as you will run out of energy after 2, presuming you managed to extend the engagement for 16 seconds.

Combat stims extra effects are nice, but boring. To bring some more specialisation into it (for an melee apo) would be be beneficial.


I usually manage with my builds to get at least to level 4 with apo, so healing scal is ok.


there are way better players than you telling you otherwise what the fuck can you not understand
i dont care if im being a dick or some shit but this is just straight up trolling from him
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Kvn » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 10:56 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Spam out heals is not really possible, as you will run out of energy after 2, presuming you managed to extend the engagement for 16 seconds.


You seem to be under the impression that the only time Apo can heal is during fights. That is not the case. Accumulated damage taken over the course of several skirmishes can be healed with his ability to keep him from having to send his units back to base and spend time recovering. This is where the heal spamming comes in, when he's able to consistently keep units full hp, and drop those heals faster and more liberally than he would otherwise.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Psycho » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 10:57 pm

Torpid cockblocked my suggestion after throwing it at Atlas so I'll summarize it here.

Have Armor of Purity reduce the cooldown of heal like LC carapace armor reduces cooldown of execute, IE a 70~90% reduction. After the heal, have a period of time where the Apo's energy regeneration is reduced to zero. When healing again, that zero energy regen timer is reset. Pretend cost and tier availability changes to match.

What it does is turn the AoP into the polar opposite of AotA by making him an energy-intensive extremely short-term healing machine compared to being a long term AoE heal or combat stim buff. Not going all-in on the healing and trying to be conservative will straight up harm the Apo more than not having the armor due to the lack of energy regen shortly after healing, and it'd differentiate the armor itself from the other armors it has in terms of purpose.

It would clash and synergize with the other wargears. Since it's energy-intensive, it'd be clashing with the bolter and the vials due to them carrying abilities that use that precious energy, but synergize with power axe and AME. The power axe would be the apo's only way to regenerate energy after healing while forcing him to melee as much as possible, and AME would give him additional max energy before the engagement starts along with energy regen to not take half the match to reach max energy again after dumping it all on healing. The other obvious choice would be rites, at which point you'd have to choose between knockback and damage or more healing. AME would drop off in favor of rites as apo levels since having 1~2 additional heals when you have 100 energy at level 1 would be more impactful than when you have three more powerful heals at 200 energy at level 10.

It'd probably be OP as fuck with immortal ASM but it's not like I even play as much as I did anyways lmao
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Paranoid Kamikaze » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 11:13 pm

It's strange but there seems to be times where Purification Rites doesn't work. Could be because units are sometimes slightly out of range. Don't know but it's not entirely reliable.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Oddnerd » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 11:42 pm

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:It's strange but there seems to be times where Purification Rites doesn't work.


It could be that this game is held together with the coding equivalent of duct tape. Not the first ability to not work in this game.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby PianoMan » Sun 15 Jul, 2018 11:50 pm

Paranoid Kamikaze wrote:It's strange but there seems to be times where Purification Rites doesn't work. Could be because units are sometimes slightly out of range. Don't know but it's not entirely reliable.

it doesn't do anything if the unit close to it is in retreat
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Nurland » Mon 16 Jul, 2018 8:59 am

Super low CD Apo heals with AoP sounds broken af. IME + a couple levels and you do 4 heals pretty mich in a row. Then get back to full energy relatively fast due to IME regen.

I alwasy found Apo to be pretty solid in 3v3 especially when you run around with your teammate.

Apo is weird for me though. He can feel like an absolute god tier hero or just total garbage. Maybe it has something to do with SM snowballiness combined with Apo being probably the most snowbally of their heroes? Like things can go extremely well if they start going well but they can also easily go horrible if you get a shitty start.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 16 Jul, 2018 1:59 pm

I wouldn t call 16 seconds super short.

You can get what, 2 heals max into an egagement, maybe 3.
Besides, IME would be more efficient with stims or Apothecarion armor.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Mon 16 Jul, 2018 3:22 pm

What kind of engagement would you need more than 2-3 heals?

Also, as has been mentioned before, being able to fit in an extra heal in between fights is not to be ignored.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Codex » Mon 16 Jul, 2018 5:30 pm

PianoMan wrote:there are way better players than you telling you otherwise what the fuck can you not understand
i dont care if im being a dick or some shit but this is just straight up trolling from him


PianoMan don't post again in this thread.

I've specifically warned you about posts in this thread, once privately, once publicly, and this makes three strikes. By your own admission you don't care if you're being a dick. So you're getting a timeout.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby egewithin » Mon 16 Jul, 2018 8:00 pm

Good to see some actual mods not allowing shitposting.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 16 Jul, 2018 8:18 pm

Besides, what about the effects of the armors (purity and stims)?

Should there be added something more ?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Ayy Eye » Mon 16 Jul, 2018 8:33 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Besides, what about the effects of the armors (purity and stims)?

Should there be added something more ?


Yeah, stims should turn units into terminators and purity should turn apo into a terminator, that way it'll be balanced because he can either be a terminator or turn other units into terminator squads.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 16 Jul, 2018 8:49 pm

Assault termies or normal ones?
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Nurland » Mon 16 Jul, 2018 10:42 pm

Ok Piano. You need to take a moment and calm down a bit.
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 16 Jul, 2018 10:44 pm

shhh, he is currently spawning bloodletters for free!
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Re: Apothecary things

Postby Forestradio » Tue 17 Jul, 2018 12:42 am

TE | NoSkill wrote:As I see it, it is the wargear and particularly the armors, that are the problems. The apo lacks an offensive wargear to improve the potency of the axe, that s why I advocated for him to get an jumppack.
For armor of purity alternatively I also thought about it getting an bigger increase to CD, like 40-50 % or to affect all abilities (coz apos most potent ones are bound to armor, but that s the least option I like).

jump pack is just a no period...
50% cd reduction on all abilities gives infinite stun with the bolter yeah let's not do that it's already one of the most trolly abilities in the gaem...

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