rangers xd
Posted: Sat 02 Jun, 2018 4:23 pm
change back to old rangers or some shit cus at this point you could give eldar 2 free power farms at the start of the game and it wouldn't be so fucking dumb
Black Relic wrote:I believe their cost was decreased alot due to the fact that they fall off horrendously after mid t2.
I still think they should have "mines" to give vision in t3. Because then late game you can always watch the enemy so long as you are diligent with the rangers.
Crewfinity wrote:They already have 70 sight range....
Antandron wrote:Their range is also obscene:
Scout Snipers: 55
Vindicare: 55
Rangers: 65
Confirmed Cancer.
Kvn wrote:Antandron wrote:Their range is also obscene:
Scout Snipers: 55
Vindicare: 55
Rangers: 65
Confirmed Cancer.
Scout Sniper damage per shot: 90
Vindicare damage per shot: 130
Ranger damage per shot: 60 (or 80 with upgrade)
+
Scout Sniper: Optional side-grade on a T1 utility unit
Vindicare: T2 elite assassin with the option of boosting his range by 10 for 20 seconds, revealing targets fired upon, and switching to anti-vehicle damage
Rangers: T1 dedicated sniper unit, and the only detector in the Eldar roster
It's almost like different units from different factions are designed differently. Crazy, right?
Black Relic wrote:Sounds like based for rangers if you put Rangers are Eldar only has one detector unit when pretty much all races except ork and tyranids are the same. SM only has scout when upgrade to serg, Chaos only has the AC tics, The Guard has catachans.
Black Relic wrote:Their keen sight and sight radius is their only thing that scale in tiers and that is still a shit design to have something that they have in t1 scale to t3 even if it is as simple as sight and keen sight. They do have KP but it falls of slightly after mid t2, still helps them be an anti melee squad when doubled up due to suppression they can do.
Black Relic wrote:Scouts, more of a map control unit/skirmisher. Can be outfitted to help in army clashes though with shotgun blast and frag grenade but to have both cost a fair amount of resources. Detection but short range of 25. Can still be avoided. Anti-melee unit, only detector in Space Marine Roster
Black Relic wrote: But Rangers atm are the worst units to play against and with since it feels like you are not even playing. One squad purchase and you completely nullify a certain type a play, harass model and bleed the enemy where you have no chance of being punished and can help set up kills or stop melee squad with KP. Yes rangers are fine. I dont care about the damage. I care about the sight radius, keensight and their ridiculous cost. Acting like the unit is fine is a far cry from fair treatment to all races and unbiased opinion toward Eldar.
Black Relic wrote:Again, Lower Sight and Keen sight radius and increase the initial cost of rangers. That is it. Keep their range. If a unit is spotting for them thats fine. Them spotting for themselves is not.
Black Relic wrote:However i would increase all snipers: Increase damage to near vanilla amounts (105 for scouts, Vindicator can stay the same, Ranger increased to 90), set up time would go up slightly but teardown increase dramatically. Like ALOT to allow for counter play and but reward a player that positions their sniper to where he doesn't need to be moved and is allowed the space to put out dps uninterrupted.
Antandron wrote:What makes Rangers so special that they merit range 65?
Antandron wrote:And the detection range 40 I did not know about until now. I am sure they really need the extra 10 compared to Tics, Catachans, Scout Sargeants, Warriors, etc., etc.. Poor poor Eldar need all the help they can get.
Antandron wrote:Those damage numbers are misleading because Rangers do more DPS with the upgrade than Scout Snipers (see below).
Antandron wrote:Antandron´s Theorem:
If unit A is OK, and unit B is similar to unit A and OP in relation to it, then unit B is OP more often than not.
If unit A is OK, and unit B is similar to unit A and UP in relation to it, then unit B is UP more often than not.
Hypotheses:
Scout Snipers are OK. Rangers are similar and OP in relation to scout snipers. Rangers are OP. (consensus agreement)
Razorback is OK. Falcon is similar and OP in relation to Razorback. Falcon is OP. (consensus agreement)
Las Pred is OK. Leman is OP in relation to Las Pred. Leman is OP. (disputed)
Antandron wrote:Currently:
Snipers + Infiltration Upgrade: 350/40. 13.85dps. Infiltration. Repair. +1.5e/s and +1.5hp/s out of combat. Range 55. 9 pop.
Rangers + Pathfinder Gear: 285/40. 16dps*. Infiltration. Holofield. Fleet of Foot. Kinetic Pulse with splash damage. Range 65. Detection range 40. 6 pop.
*Could be 15dps, the Codex gives two different numbers.
Antandron wrote:They would still function at range 55 and half the roster of every race is a copy and paste of something else with a few minor adjustments. See Tacs, CSM, SS and Pred, Looted Tank, CSM Pred. Weapon ranges are usually similar (Tacs 38, CSM 38, DA 38, Shootas 38, Hormas 38, GM 38, SS 38) because fucking around with these numbers adds nothing to the game while risking annoying imbalances such as being shot at from out of the fog of war over and over and over again.
Antandron wrote:There has to be a reason for it but is it a very good reason? There should be a precautionary principle for stuff like this that means if it ain´t broke, don´t fix it. Detection range 30 would be acceptable for Rangers and no-one would even notice. So would range 55. No-one would be complaining and Rangers would still not be close to a copy and paste of Scout Snipers.
Antandron wrote:Not true. If it looks like cancer, smells like cancer, costs like cancer and plays like cancer, it is probably cancer.
Antandron wrote:It is obviously not only the range 65.
Antandron wrote:Their range is also obscene:
Scout Snipers: 55
Vindicare: 55
Rangers: 65
Confirmed Cancer.
They are not soley a dedicated detector squad. They do so much freaking mor already explained above. They amplify your force by spotting everything, doing peel damage, able to infiltrate your entire army, able to knockback units to set up whatever you want and do a shitton of damage in the meantime. They do not die do a stray volley -.- , L2 use rangers, cuz they are OP.Kvn wrote:The reason I pointed out Rangers being the only detectors Eldar has is because they're a dedicated squad. If the enemy gets an infiltrator, most other factions will either buy an upgrade on one of their existing units (SM, Orks, Chaos) or have a choice in their options (soft counter Sentinel orhard counter Catachans for IG). Tyranids are similar, but they have the benefit of Warriors' utility, support, and the availability of the Lictor in the late game. Meanwhile, late game detection for Eldar is still Rangers, who will pretty much die to a stray volley at that point with high-tier units and leveled squads running around.
They don't scale? They are useful in any stage of the game. Sigh alone is already useful enough for such a fucking bargain cost! But not only do you get godlike sight, you also get so many other things already stated before.Kvn wrote:...So you're saying that Rangers should not be allowed to scale at all...? Well, they don't really. Sight alone is generally not useful enough to warrant buying a new squad, paying upkeep, keeping it under constant micro seeing as it is vulnerable enough to die the moment something starts to shoot at it, and generally taking away resources that could be put into something that has a larger impact on the battlefield. But hey, I've done and redone this argument a thousand times in the past, so I understand it's pointless to do it again. Let us agree to disagree on that point.
For the record, there are plenty of T1 units that scale. I'm not sure why you think Rangers would be unique in that aspect, especially since their scaling is exclusive to their sight range.
Kvn wrote:Black Relic wrote:Their keen sight and sight radius is their only thing that scale in tiers and that is still a shit design to have something that they have in t1 scale to t3 even if it is as simple as sight and keen sight. They do have KP but it falls of slightly after mid t2, still helps them be an anti melee squad when doubled up due to suppression they can do.
...So you're saying that Rangers should not be allowed to scale at all...? Well, they don't really. Sight alone is generally not useful enough to warrant buying a new squad, paying upkeep, keeping it under constant micro seeing as it is vulnerable enough to die the moment something starts to shoot at it, and generally taking away resources that could be put into something that has a larger impact on the battlefield. But hey, I've done and redone this argument a thousand times in the past, so I understand it's pointless to do it again. Let us agree to disagree on that point.
For the record, there are plenty of T1 units that scale. I'm not sure why you think Rangers would be unique in that aspect, especially since their scaling is exclusive to their sight range.
Black Relic wrote:I must have worded it badly, but what I meant that the only thing that scale for ranger is their sight and keen sight. And since those are the only things that do scale and not really the unit itself in its designed role equals the unit is designed poorly.
I know that most T1 scale (although leveling benefits is a big reason as to why t1 squad scale pretty well) and rangers should do the same.
Black Relic wrote:I will mention my "design" for rangers that would scale imo better although the sniper change i mentioned earlier would have to go into effect to make this work really well, or this will be OP vs High hp, low model count races and worthless vs low hp, high model count races.
Rangers keensight radius would be lowered to 30 (maybe 35 is also a good number.)
Sight radius Lowered to 55.
Kinetic Pulse is a target ground ability. A well timed and a enemy player who blobs up allows the KP to hit multiple squad with ease. The Damage is removed.
Long Rifles doing courage damage removed
When the Rangers have the pathfinder gear upgrade they gain access to a "beacon". Thius beacon stay infiltrated and can emit a sight radius of 20 (or 25 since 20 is actually reeaaaaally small). It doesnt do damage but if placed in the right places you can see the enemies army and the direction they are coming from. This can be detected. Their large a fuck sight radius is lowered but they scale even better late game by continuously putting down these beacons thought the game. Energy cost would be fairly high at 70 and the cooldown time to use the beacon would be 60 and the build time being 8-10 seconds. They scale better later in the game imo since most players wont have time to look for these "beacons"
I do want them to have an upgrade in t3 that allows KP to shoot a projectile and similarly to how the blastmaster works, Knocksback everything in its path that is an enemy. Still No damage. The Upgrade would allow rangers to auto infiltrate when standing still, similarly to catachans.