Space marine balance + ideas

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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egewithin
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby egewithin » Wed 09 May, 2018 5:41 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:Not every unit and wargear must be viable in 100% of the cases, this is a strategical and tactical game you have to recognize when you have the opportunity to make something work and when it can give you back it's investments at it's best and more, YOU as the player have to know when to do what, this is the objective of elite, to give a space and place to everything but not to make everything always usable, otherwise this game would become a braindead thing where whatever you do works, if you make good decisions you are rewarded, if you make bad decisions you are punished, it's simple as that.


This.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 5:48 pm

egewithin wrote:There are 2 reasons why people don't get HF on Termies. One of them is the range problem, second is the lack of need. People love HF with Termie FC, because they can teleport, use it, and retreat. Range problem solved. See? HF is good and everybody loves it, people just can't risk their termies to get too close. Second is the need. Proboby HF is worth only against Tyranid army, and can still be effective in late game.

The real question is, should we even bother make a change about that? I see HF as one of odd weapons that should be used in odd situations, and I am fine with that. It might be a rare choice, but its still there. Powerblades of WS, Bionic Eye of LC, Icon of Tzeentch of SC, Bioplasma, etc are also rare, but they are still fine.


What is that for an question?
Why bother to make an item more useful and increase the pool of choices??
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 6:09 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:Termies perform fine in their vanilla state, the assault cannon is a rape machine against low models high HP squads and heroes, the heavy flamer is amazing on bottleneck maps like angel's gate where all 3 opposite players are forced to blob their late game infantry into tight corridors, the fact that you guys don't know this after playing the game for 5 years amazes me, in that latter case the heavy flamer literally deletes entire armies.
.


Because I don t look at wargear in dependence on the map. That it works on 1 map very well and sucks on the others is no argument.


Ace of Swords wrote:
Not every unit and wargear must be viable in 100% of the cases, this is a strategical and tactical game you have to recognize when you have the opportunity to make something work and when it can give you back it's investments at it's best and more, YOU as the player have to know when to do what, this is the objective of elite, to give a space and place to everything but not to make everything always usable, otherwise this game would become a braindead thing where whatever you do works, if you make good decisions you are rewarded, if you make bad decisions you are punished, it's simple as that.


Yeah, and the space of HF is smaller then a molecul.
-sucks against heavy/ superheavy/ armor
- is short range
- "cleansing flame" is a strong are denial against low armor stuff.... of which not much runs around T3, where Termies hit the field.

Melta on cleansing flame would make it much more useful, which it should be on an T3 red unit.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby egewithin » Wed 09 May, 2018 6:15 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:What is that for an question?
Why bother to make an item more useful and increase the pool of choices??


Because SM things, tbh all DoW things but lets go with SM, is about counters, and hard counters. For example, Tacs.

Flamer = Anti Infantry and gens
Plasma = Anti HI and SHI
Missile = Vehicles

If one thing is effective against everything, why even bother going other options? Also, something that counters everything is a BIG balance issue. I would prefer hard counter any day, rather than something counter everything but not too much. For example : Tacs vs Sterns. Ask Riku about it. Even hard counters have some draw backs.

Flamer = Close range, not effective in late game
Plasma = Not good against Infantry, and has accuarcy problem
Missile = Expensive, and can't do a thing against infantry

Even melta guns, a weapon that literally counters everything, has a drawback called '' range ''. So, a weapon doesn't have to counter everything, and doesn't need to be effective all the time. What are you going to do with flamer Guardsmen in late game? They can't do shit now, how you gonna buff them? But they did a lot of work in T1, what about that? Still gonna buff them?
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Swift » Wed 09 May, 2018 6:15 pm

Gonna let Ace handle this one from this point on, I don't have the stamina.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 6:34 pm

egewithin wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:What is that for an question?
Why bother to make an item more useful and increase the pool of choices??


Because SM things, tbh all DoW things but lets go with SM, is about counters, and hard counters. For example, Tacs.

Flamer = Anti Infantry and gens
Plasma = Anti HI and SHI
Missile = Vehicles

If one thing is effective against everything, why even bother going other options? Also, something that counters everything is a BIG balance issue. I would prefer hard counter any day, rather than something counter everything but not too much. For example : Tacs vs Sterns. Ask Riku about it. Even hard counters have some draw backs.

Flamer = Close range, not effective in late game
Plasma = Not good against Infantry, and has accuarcy problem
Missile = Expensive, and can't do a thing against infantry

Even melta guns, a weapon that literally counters everything, has a drawback called '' range ''. So, a weapon doesn't have to counter everything, and doesn't need to be effective all the time. What are you going to do with flamer Guardsmen in late game? They can't do shit now, how you gonna buff them? But they did a lot of work in T1, what about that? Still gonna buff them?


If flamers are shit in T3, what is the validity of the Terminator flamer, of an T3 unit, that costs red and a lot more + the actual upgrade, if the can t have an impact like flamer guardsmen?

If the ability is too strong with melta dmg, then increase the cooldown andthe problem is solved.
The ability is NOT the basic weapon!
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 09 May, 2018 6:36 pm

Why did you come to Elite mod in the first place? Retail sounds exactly like the game for you.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 6:46 pm

Oddnerd wrote:Why did you come to Elite mod in the first place? Retail sounds exactly like the game for you.


At first, because of the awesome elite schemes and UI.

Later I learnd to appreciate the tactical gameplay.

Retail is unbalanced as fck and looks like it is; abandoned.

But what has this to do with my argument?
Because I try to water down the tactical aspect or what?
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 09 May, 2018 6:49 pm

No - because we've described in detail how silly these proposals are but you keep trying to argue that melta damage on cleansing flame would be a good idea.

This mod is focused primarily around 1v1 balance and changing the ability damage to melta would be incredibly dumb. Its already beem addressed how cleansing flame is already a great ability and needs no changes, as well as why its a bad idea to give terminators an anti-all option. Please stop trying to convince us that this is a good idea because its not.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Oddnerd » Wed 09 May, 2018 7:06 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Oddnerd wrote:Why did you come to Elite mod in the first place? Retail sounds exactly like the game for you.


Later I learnd to appreciate the tactical gameplay.

Retail is unbalanced as fck and looks like it is; abandoned.

But what has this to do with my argument?
Because I try to water down the tactical aspect or what?


The three bolded phrases are important: Elite mod is more tactically-oriented than Retail, which is indeed "unbalanced as fuck" because of how over-the-top many units and wargears are.

In another thread you complained that the CL's melee damage debuff wargear wasn't working well in certain situations - that is the point. Some items work well in some situations, and don't provide good returns in others. In the case of Daemonic Visage, it is a strong counter-initiation item when you are fighting an enemy who trying to overwhelm you with melee power. Hell, you even answered your own question when you said
Visage requires your slow CL to get into melee first and is more an melee counter item.


Counter-melee is an important niche for every race, and that is the role that Visage on a CL plays. Speaking of CL - you also wanted him to have an AV melee weapon? This again brings up the central theme of Elite mod's divergent balance from Retail - nothing should be good at everything. The CL is a very potent commander because he is a tanky melee hero who can be specialized to shut down enemy infantry blobs, counter-melee, or wreck single targets like commanders/subcommanders. There is no reason why he should also be wrecking vehicles while he is at it (Chaos already has an amazing selection of AV units, like a lascannon havoc with seemingly no windup animation, plague marines, MoT dreadnoughts, terminator autocannons, MoT predators, and the LRP).


You can talk about appreciating the improved tactical aspect of Elite mod, but you seem to have missed the point that Elite mod is more tactical than Retail because the devs attempted to take cheesy, universally-potent units and wargears and units and give them more well-defined strengths and weaknesses.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 09 May, 2018 7:06 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Because I don t look at wargear in dependence on the map. That it works on 1 map very well and sucks on the others is no argument.


Then you clearly still need to learn to play, each faction has advantages and disadvantages relative to game modes and the maps, yes this is something you have to plan for and this is something that was also balanced around, otherwise we would only be left with big linear open maps.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Yeah, and the space of HF is smaller then a molecul.
-sucks against heavy/ superheavy/ armor
- is short range
- "cleansing flame" is a strong are denial against low armor stuff.... of which not much runs around T3, where Termies hit the field.

Melta on cleansing flame would make it much more useful, which it should be on an T3 red unit.


Cleansing flames still do an amazing job vs units like nobs even though they are HI, the only units that can ignore it are high HP SHI units like other terminators, even ogryns suffer a lot against it despite the armor type.

And it goes without saying how retarded it would be to have an high dps AV flamer.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 7:10 pm

Crewfinity wrote:No - because we've described in detail how silly these proposals are but you keep trying to argue that melta damage on cleansing flame would be a good idea.

This mod is focused primarily around 1v1 balance and changing the ability damage to melta would be incredibly dumb. Its already beem addressed how cleansing flame is already a great ability and needs no changes, as well as why its a bad idea to give terminators an anti-all option. Please stop trying to convince us that this is a good idea because its not.


The closest thing you got for an good explanation was that it is to powerful, if only the dmg type was changed;
Which is a thing, that can be worked around as I proposed above.
And the dmg should be melta, because its not brutally effective vs armor/there is no heavy flame dmg.

And it is definitly an better idea then what the ability provides now, because the option has nothing going for it in 3v3 now and I'd guess it is only slightly better in 1v1.

Cleansing flame requires you opponent to stand for at least 10 seconds in it, if it is not normal inf( of which there is normally not much around in t3 and even then you have to get close).

And what would change for 1v1? It would still be an area denial ability, which can be outmanouvered, only, that it would now be actually useful in the lategame on a, you know, high cost +red elite infantry, that needs good options.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 7:22 pm

Ace of Swords wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Because I don t look at wargear in dependence on the map. That it works on 1 map very well and sucks on the others is no argument.


Then you clearly still need to learn to play, each faction has advantages and disadvantages relative to game modes and the maps, yes this is something you have to plan for and this is something that was also balanced around, otherwise we would only be left with big linear open maps.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Yeah, and the space of HF is smaller then a molecul.
-sucks against heavy/ superheavy/ armor
- is short range
- "cleansing flame" is a strong are denial against low armor stuff.... of which not much runs around T3, where Termies hit the field.

Melta on cleansing flame would make it much more useful, which it should be on an T3 red unit.


Cleansing flames still do an amazing job vs units like nobs even though they are HI, the only units that can ignore it are high HP SHI units like other terminators, even ogryns suffer a lot against it despite the armor type.

And it goes without saying how retarded it would be to have an high dps AV flamer.


So you go like "Oh shit, we have lotz of narrow maps, so let flamer be weak"?
So an nice weapon now needs an niche map??
I mean, ofc you have to watch on how good certain weapons perform in situations, but this much?

"Cleansing flame" may useful for area denial for normal infantry( which also conveniently has low health per model) and even higher armor infantry, but that still requires your termies to stand still and constantly apply the ability aka channeling it AND requires your opponent to take it without moving his units. Which is mostly the case in an game as dynamic as this.

And stop saying that the ability equals the base attack!
The ability can be adjusted to the new values, which I already mentioned above
Just like ppl on the TWW forums equal undead= unbreakable!
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 09 May, 2018 7:45 pm

JFC i cant with this.

If you cant imagine why an anti-all AOE ability on a squad with a massive health pool would be broken then idk what to tell you. This is one of the dumbest ideas ive heard in a long time.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 7:47 pm

Crewfinity wrote:JFC i cant with this.

If you cant imagine why an anti-all AOE ability on a squad with a massive health pool would be broken then idk what to tell you. This is one of the dumbest ideas ive heard in a long time.


I can.
That s why I proposed several restrictions.
Maybe you should first look on how to make it work before decrying it?
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 09 May, 2018 7:52 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote: let the damage on "cleansing flame" be melta. The ability would then need to be toned down of course, something like 15 melta dmg for 20 seconds


Yeah... this is still a dumb idea. Cleansing flame does not need changes of this magnitude at all. The only change that should be considered is rebalancing the ability vs the base damage in the same way that the TFC was recently changed.

Changing the damage type to melta would be a massive and completely unneccesary buff to a unit/weapon that already performs quite well.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby The Licking Boogyman » Wed 09 May, 2018 8:01 pm

Flamer termies are gud vs nids and ig and some degree probably orks. Teleport in, use cleansing of flame, which already makes the blob retreat since the damage is sky high and maybe if they get into to much danger libby warps them out. Literally a unit that can heavily bleed infantry blobs like it's a second thunderhammer in ur army. Why u want to kill tanks with a weapon dedicated to those kind of scenarios. U have 2 other upgrade options to go for, for other scenarios. And if u don't want those as well, why get them in the first place ? They don't need to become literally a no-brainer unit, because with ur suggestions, they could just counter every unit in the game.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 9:08 pm

The Licking Boogyman wrote:Flamer termies are gud vs nids and ig and some degree probably orks. Teleport in, use cleansing of flame, which already makes the blob retreat since the damage is sky high and maybe if they get into to much danger libby warps them out. Literally a unit that can heavily bleed infantry blobs like it's a second thunderhammer in ur army. Why u want to kill tanks with a weapon dedicated to those kind of scenarios. U have 2 other upgrade options to go for, for other scenarios. And if u don't want those as well, why get them in the first place ? They don't need to become literally a no-brainer unit, because with ur suggestions, they could just counter every unit in the game.


Coz a whirlwind does the job well enough by disrupting.
And in those few situations, that this manouver can be pulled off, it s quiet cheesy tbh. A maximum of 900 flame dmg is monstrous!
But aggressive Terminatorplay like you described is the exception in 3v3 and only a bit more common in 2v2.

Crewfinity wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote: let the damage on "cleansing flame" be melta. The ability would then need to be toned down of course, something like 15 melta dmg for 20 seconds


Yeah... this is still a dumb idea. Cleansing flame does not need changes of this magnitude at all. The only change that should be considered is rebalancing the ability vs the base damage in the same way that the TFC was recently changed.

Changing the damage type to melta would be a massive and completely unneccesary buff to a unit/weapon that already performs quite well.


Think of it;
Less nuking potential in some niche situations for better, but less damage against all targets.
If it is too powerful, it can have an large CD.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 09 May, 2018 9:14 pm

Hmmm when you put it like that.... it still sounds like a terrible idea.


Why dont we make Tac flamers melta damage while we're at it, doesnt seem fair that they shouldnt have an anti-all option in t3 -_-
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 9:21 pm

Crewfinity wrote:Hmmm when you put it like that.... it still sounds like a terrible idea.


Why dont we make Tac flamers melta damage while we're at it, doesnt seem fair that they shouldnt have an anti-all option in t3 -_-


Because it s about the ability on an high tier unit weapons choice, that is mostly redundant, because it does not perform?

And it s about the ability ffs and not the base dmg!
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 09 May, 2018 9:43 pm

Terminator flamer performs well in its role and needs no changes. Just because you don't know how to use it well there's no reason to break that ability. Done responding because you don't seem to be getting it.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 9:47 pm

Crewfinity wrote:Terminator flamer performs well in its role and needs no changes. Just because you don't know how to use it well there's no reason to break that ability. Done responding because you don't seem to be getting it.


And the role is what? Roasting light infantry in T3 ??
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Ace of Swords » Wed 09 May, 2018 9:52 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Ace of Swords wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Because I don t look at wargear in dependence on the map. That it works on 1 map very well and sucks on the others is no argument.


Then you clearly still need to learn to play, each faction has advantages and disadvantages relative to game modes and the maps, yes this is something you have to plan for and this is something that was also balanced around, otherwise we would only be left with big linear open maps.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Yeah, and the space of HF is smaller then a molecul.
-sucks against heavy/ superheavy/ armor
- is short range
- "cleansing flame" is a strong are denial against low armor stuff.... of which not much runs around T3, where Termies hit the field.

Melta on cleansing flame would make it much more useful, which it should be on an T3 red unit.


Cleansing flames still do an amazing job vs units like nobs even though they are HI, the only units that can ignore it are high HP SHI units like other terminators, even ogryns suffer a lot against it despite the armor type.

And it goes without saying how retarded it would be to have an high dps AV flamer.


So you go like "Oh shit, we have lotz of narrow maps, so let flamer be weak"?
So an nice weapon now needs an niche map??
I mean, ofc you have to watch on how good certain weapons perform in situations, but this much?

"Cleansing flame" may useful for area denial for normal infantry( which also conveniently has low health per model) and even higher armor infantry, but that still requires your termies to stand still and constantly apply the ability aka channeling it AND requires your opponent to take it without moving his units. Which is mostly the case in an game as dynamic as this.

And stop saying that the ability equals the base attack!
The ability can be adjusted to the new values, which I already mentioned above
Just like ppl on the TWW forums equal undead= unbreakable!


Again the flamer itself is already good enough, the ability makes it VERY good and in some maps it's even better, the rest depends on your composition, there's plenty of abilities to support the termies in their role and sm has a sub-commander that is basically dedicated support for them, the AoE is also large enough to make sure you force a retreat or risk to wipe out full model/hp units, even lvl 4 ones, at this point between this thread and the other it's clear you just have no clue how to use units that require more thought than just attack moving.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 10:42 pm

Yes, I agree, that the ability is an strong area denial.
Still, it needs the termies channel it AND require the enemy standing in it and armor does ignore it, shich is problematic to say the least.
It simply does not compare to cyclon missle launcher or even an assault cannon for its cost efficiency.
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Broodwich » Thu 10 May, 2018 6:04 am

Never argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Black Relic » Thu 10 May, 2018 6:39 am

Flamer doing Melta damage is a no no. Too much overlap, no even the niche AC has no use and the cyclone missile launcher has no use. Just no no.

While I do think its ok to have niches vs curtain compositions/ builds is not good to have niches vs specific races. To me that sounds like a shit way to do balance. Because then people will pick race vs a specific race, and thats BS. while it is most likely not possible completely eliminate certain races overpowering others, it should be a goal to eliminate that as much as possible while trying to keep each race unique. Its not easy. Never easy. But you can only get closer to that goal but working towards it. But i digress.

The Bionic eye (was mentioned so a bit on that) is pretty OP. Just hard to use in a 3v3 scenerio which is were alot of people get it. Get it and a chimera in 1v1 and watch your enemy cry when their set up gets raped by one guardsmen squad with plasma. People are too aggressive with the buff it gives leading to poor decision making. Your set up team getting suppressed? Bionic eye. It getting focused? Bionic eye. You have a pesky tank that needs to die and is out of position. Storm troopers with melta, shoot one and then infiltrate them. Try and not be so aggressive and you will see rewards. Plus if you pop loyal to the ends and then shoot a model, instant ~120% (the buffs are not addictive) damage buff.

Powerblades is crap and doesn't really offer anything to the Warp Spider. His other wargears are better and safer options. You get it for artillery hunting, that about it. You want it to be slightly less niche, add a HP increase of 50 or so. But it will still be crap since it doesn't pronounce what the warp spider is good at. Shooting, control and being hard to catch. The war gear changes the hero in to teleportation melee hero. Its decent for harassing capping squads. But his range dps does it better and is more reliable imo. Remove the heavy melee and change it to power melee. The wargear will see ALOT more uses and perform the role that the wargear is intended for and still will put pressure on artillery vehicles like the manticore.

Icon of tzeentch, under utilized due to the energy cost. Fucking amazing wargear though. Chains and wait. Once they break free pick a low hp unit going in and blow it up. Use it for the KB it does to nearby infantry not for the damage. Thats were the war gear shines. People try to get that big damage and explosion from the wargear. Not practical. It just requires the Sorc to use Consume alot.

Bioplasma, yea pretty much. But it is good to dislodge setup teams. Thats the intended use imo if you don't want to commit raveners for that. Use it to dislodge, munch on front line with raveners in tow, and then when set up gets buck up and its almost ready to fire. Jump it. If it was slightly more accurate it would be worlds better. Possibly OP.


But on the fact of terminators. I have hardly had an issue vs terminators with a Heavy flamer or an AC unless i was behind. Ac is good vs Eldar when they are behind. Bashees will wail to each other then. So will guardians. But that one squad the melt. If i was warp spider i would use phase shift Just to stop that unit from shooting and kill the rest of the army. Farseer? Fortune maybe?? Might be ok will lower the Piercing damage by 40% (or any damage period) i think. Warlock? I think the cloak of shadows would be good with the shield global. OO yes bleed great off a t1 squad. Brutal when the enemy lacks a single req point.

But i am not giving the AC enough credit. Is it good? yea its ok i guess. Is it really worth it? No. I never get it. Cyclone or the flamer. Assault Cannon has never been an option. Because the storm bolters already rape low HP high model squads. The assault cannon just helps do that slightly faster but its limited by the cool down, reload time and frequency. When a models dies the model doing the killing, stops and that fires again. Despite their being no wind up time, due to that short pause, the damage drop is noticeable, and not to mention the 3 second cool down is ginormous. There is little reason to get the AC. You have the HI problem? Plasma tac. Annoying infantry blob? Plasma cannon or whirlwind. Tank? Take your pick on what to use. Melee blob? get a scout squad with shotguns, maybe even 2 (dont only rely on devastators for suppression in t3) trust me they will help tons with that late game, just dont use them as a front line units, counter initiation, dont rush them up to get shotguns off, and they provide more map control some people completely forget about, pop infiltration and decap natural ALL the time dont even bother with capping it. Just focus on damaging you enemies economy, capping it is a bonus, decapping it already completes the task you intended. Worth it 100%.

SM thrive in control and being a tough\adaptable race. They dont do damage very very fast (unless your FC) and imo the require more compatibility in a build the other races with Eldar topping it. The only Hero that can make any build work imo is FC, and maybe Apo. Although the techmarine's mine do offer some unique play. But Ac doesn't offer anything but damage and suppression after 5 years of shooting. There are better options since the killing low HP high model squads is what they do well at already.

As for the Heavy Flamer, I am fine with saying its good in specific maps, but in a 3v3 map. F no thats no reason to justify a weapon. F 3v3 as a balance reason, we have always said that, (with a few exceptions). While i dont agree with Noskill and melta damage (its absurd), it being good only because its ability is shit design. If the ability didn't exist even a cost of 75/20 for the heavy flamer wouldn't convince me to buy it on my terminators. The weapon high cost is only due to the ability and not the weapon. The only time that would happen is on a Hero, but not a squad. I want the ability toned down in favor of the heavy flamer basic attack doing a tad bit better. The ability could do less damage but have a debuff that lowers affects squads resistances to flame damage, to make even Tac flamer and dreadnought flamers be worth using in t3. That sounds fucking cool, interesting and adds more variety to the game. There are still risks involved with flamers though(due to the poor range) but that is what makes a game enjoyable.

My vote is AC is boring and needs work and Heavy Flamer is boring and needs work. Cyclone missile launcher= yea for control and versatility. But whatever that is my opinion.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
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boss
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby boss » Thu 10 May, 2018 8:33 am

Read what I said on the other topic as for this one nuke it as well pls.
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TE | NoSkill
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby TE | NoSkill » Thu 10 May, 2018 9:25 am

boss wrote:Read what I said on the other topic as for this one nuke it as well pls.


Git gud?
Yeah, fine solution. Even then, I would have to force myself taking the worse option
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby Swift » Thu 10 May, 2018 11:32 am

TE | NoSkill wrote:
boss wrote:Read what I said on the other topic as for this one nuke it as well pls.


Git gud?
Yeah, fine solution. Even then, I would have to force myself taking the worse option

What's that supposed to mean? That you'd have to continue using the balanced units already in the game without any of your suggestions added? Because if that is what you mean, then yes. I don't know how many times I've seen this posted but yes, they're fine as they are, don't fix what isn't broken.
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egewithin
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Re: Space marine balance + ideas

Postby egewithin » Thu 10 May, 2018 11:33 am

I just used HF on termies 3 times last night. It's more effective than I toughed. IG, nids, Orks and Eldar, it wrecks everything. This weapon needs no buffs IMO.

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