Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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TE | NoSkill
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 7:00 pm

Might be true for T1 engagements, if there is not so much CC around, at T2 its a whole other level. Ranged dps are only getting stronger per tier.
I doesn t even need to be all CC, it is already enough, if your CL is forced off or hindered long enough to halt your advance
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Crewfinity » Tue 08 May, 2018 9:30 pm

Please stop trying to defend these proposals, and be more open to what everyone else is saying. They've given you a lot of reasons why your proposals dont make sense, and nurland even offered to play some games with you to help you understand those units better. I would advise you take him up on that and explore those units more fully before you keep making silly arguments against vastly more experienced players.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 9:52 pm

Crewfinity wrote:Please stop trying to defend these proposals, and be more open to what everyone else is saying. They've given you a lot of reasons why your proposals dont make sense, and nurland even offered to play some games with you to help you understand those units better. I would advise you take him up on that and explore those units more fully before you keep making silly arguments against vastly more experienced players.


I have experience with those units in at least 300h 3v3, so I know what I saw.
And I have adjusted my proposals as with some corrections/improvements, that were suggested here.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Crewfinity » Tue 08 May, 2018 10:02 pm

I have over 2000 hours of experience in 1v1 (which is the mode that the game is primarily balanced around), and am on the lower end of the experienced players.

Your proposals would make KCSM/Raptors/CL balls-crazy OP - for reasons already explained by others above.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 10:19 pm

Crewfinity wrote:I have over 2000 hours of experience in 1v1 (which is the mode that the game is primarily balanced around), and am on the lower end of the experienced players.

Your proposals would make KCSM/Raptors/CL balls-crazy OP - for reasons already explained by others above.


To sum it up;
+50 hp on AC, stealth in cover on raptors and more power melee/ heavy melee on AC MoK would break them?
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Kvn » Tue 08 May, 2018 10:35 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:To sum it up;
+50 hp on AC, stealth in cover on raptors and more power melee/ heavy melee on AC MoK would break them?


To put it bluntly, yes it may. You should look back through the archives. Way back in the day, someone wanted to give the GM sarge 10 melee dps on his chainsword. lt turned into a lengthy discussion where it was pointed out that similar seemingly small changes had been implemented in the past with game breaking results.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Nurland » Tue 08 May, 2018 10:40 pm

Wouldn't necessarily break them but it is a buff neither of the units really need.

Also, 300 hours isn't much. Lots of people here have 2k-6k hours logged into the game over the years.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 10:47 pm

Kvn wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:To sum it up;
+50 hp on AC, stealth in cover on raptors and more power melee/ heavy melee on AC MoK would break them?


To put it bluntly, yes it may. You should look back through the archives. Way back in the day, someone wanted to give the GM sarge 10 melee dps on his chainsword. lt turned into a lengthy discussion where it was pointed out that similar seemingly small changes had been implemented in the past with game breaking results.


And creating test versions is not a thing? ( 10dps on GM sarge is a bit much tbh )

Nurland wrote:Wouldn't necessarily break them but it is a buff neither of the units really need.

Also, 300 hours isn't much. Lots of people here have 2k-6k hours logged into the game over the years.


How hard would those changes affect the units in 1v1?
As I m mainly concerend about making them more useful in 3v3
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby OceansAteAlaska » Tue 08 May, 2018 11:27 pm

"i have 300 hours in 3v3 i know what im talking about"

That sentence alone tells me that you know nothing about Balance

Pls Just listen to what all These waaaay more experienced players are telling you and Stop talking nonsense
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Nurland » Wed 09 May, 2018 5:43 am

Both of the units are perfectly viable in 3v3. KCSM are more niche than Raptors in team games but they still are decent enough.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 10:12 am

:D
OceansAteAlaska wrote:"i have 300 hours in 3v3 i know what im talking about"

That sentence alone tells me that you know nothing about Balance

Pls Just listen to what all These waaaay more experienced players are telling you and Stop talking nonsense


Sigh, 300 h with IG +200 SM /Chaos

I do listen to fair points, not to "more experienced player = automatically right".
By that logic, aminion would be a god amongst DoW II players...
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 10:17 am

Nurland wrote:Both of the units are perfectly viable in 3v3. KCSM are more niche than Raptors in team games but they still are decent enough.


In T2 come melee squads out, that can easily overpower MoK or the existing squads can get much better in fighting them.
Considering, that MoK marines can t fight armor and are only mediocre in infantry engagements ( after they have been shot up), what is their use?

Raptors can t be too offensive, because their hp and support doesn t allow so. A bit more utility, then the wipe potential with AC and suppression would be nice zo have
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Swift » Wed 09 May, 2018 12:41 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Sigh, 300 h with IG +200 SM /Chaos

I do listen to fair points, not to "more experienced player = automatically right".
By that logic, aminion would be a god amongst DoW II players...

This interested me (and once again, nothing personal but really you have a lot to learn) because this is a fallacy I've seen before.

By raising the example of aminion here you've lumped together a whole big mixed bag of players you could listen to, but by picking and choosing one of the few obvious avoid-at-all-costs players you're effectively saying "hey your opinion is pointless because you have less experience than aminion has with Chaos and he's trash, therefore experience means nothing" etc.

Don't do this. The individual experience of some of the players posting here is worth more than an infinite number of aminions, he is but one errant example of experience not equalling skill. Also, don't claim that this is "logic" when it isn't. It sounds clever I am sure, but you're not hitting on anything pertinent, because your whole approach is flawed to begin with.

So I suppose the question now is why should you listen to any of them at all. Not for their hours, not for their long standing presence in the community, not because they main one faction and therefore must presumably know it. Listen to the people who are skilled and who grasp the nuances of the mechanics, no matter how many hours or games they have played. Plenty of excellent answers have been brushed away because you can all too easily group a negative answer with the idea that "Oh look this person thinks they have experience but they must be biased because I know one player who is."

I doubt your mind will be changed by this thread, but I hope that by getting more practice in the game that you'll see there's a lot more to all of this than meets the eye.

And please, don't raise any more little fallacies that sound logical, because I promise you they're really not.
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Re: RE: Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Nurland » Wed 09 May, 2018 1:36 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:[quote="Nurland"]Both of the units are perfectly viable in 3v3. KCSM are more niche than Raptors in team games but they still are decent enough.


In T2 come melee squads out, that can easily overpower MoK or the existing squads can get much better in fighting them.
Considering, that MoK marines can t fight armor and are only mediocre in infantry engagements ( after they have been shot up), what is their use?

Raptors can t be too offensive, because their hp and support doesn t allow so. A bit more utility, then the wipe potential with AC and suppression would be nice zo have[/quote]KCSM ARE NOT A MELEE SUPERIORITY UNIT. They do have around 50/50 chances agains Shees though. Not sure about Sluggas.

KCSM excell at punishing overextended melee units or vehicles. They are great counter initiation and for sniping subcommanders/heroes or any single entities.

They also absolutely destroy ranged units.

Raptors usually instantly force off most of the units they jump in T2 unless someone is ballsy and wants to risk a squad wipe.

As IG you should be pretty fucking scared of KCSM by now.

If you can't make Raptors or KCSM work, it is not because the units are bad. It is because you play bad or use them in wrong situations.

I see them used plenty in higher level 3v3s. I also use them myself in the game mode without much problem.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 6:24 pm

Swift wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
Sigh, 300 h with IG +200 SM /Chaos

I do listen to fair points, not to "more experienced player = automatically right".
By that logic, aminion would be a god amongst DoW II players...

This interested me (and once again, nothing personal but really you have a lot to learn) because this is a fallacy I've seen before.

By raising the example of aminion here you've lumped together a whole big mixed bag of players you could listen to, but by picking and choosing one of the few obvious avoid-at-all-costs players you're effectively saying "hey your opinion is pointless because you have less experience than aminion has with Chaos and he's trash, therefore experience means nothing" etc.

Don't do this. The individual experience of some of the players posting here is worth more than an infinite number of aminions, he is but one errant example of experience not equalling skill. Also, don't claim that this is "logic" when it isn't. It sounds clever I am sure, but you're not hitting on anything pertinent, because your whole approach is flawed to begin with.

So I suppose the question now is why should you listen to any of them at all. Not for their hours, not for their long standing presence in the community, not because they main one faction and therefore must presumably know it. Listen to the people who are skilled and who grasp the nuances of the mechanics, no matter how many hours or games they have played. Plenty of excellent answers have been brushed away because you can all too easily group a negative answer with the idea that "Oh look this person thinks they have experience but they must be biased because I know one player who is."

I doubt your mind will be changed by this thread, but I hope that by getting more practice in the game that you'll see there's a lot more to all of this than meets the eye.

And please, don't raise any more little fallacies that sound logical, because I promise you they're really not.


I don t care for their experience, but for the validity of their points. I know that experience sometimes equals validity in wisdom, but I don t count on that usually.

And I have adjusted my points with the ongoing discussion and cut corners and I will continue to do so.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Swift » Wed 09 May, 2018 6:49 pm

Not sometimes, most of the time. You're not helping yourself by selecting "valid arguments" if you yourself don't know what exactly makes up a valid argument. I've seen you brush off a lot of valid ones so far.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 7:11 pm

Swift wrote:Not sometimes, most of the time. You're not helping yourself by selecting "valid arguments" if you yourself don't know what exactly makes up a valid argument. I've seen you brush off a lot of valid ones so far.


Have you seen, how much my list of proposals has changed??
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Swift » Wed 09 May, 2018 7:24 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Swift wrote:Not sometimes, most of the time. You're not helping yourself by selecting "valid arguments" if you yourself don't know what exactly makes up a valid argument. I've seen you brush off a lot of valid ones so far.


Have you seen, how much my list of proposals has changed??

Did you update the opening post or have you updated them in your responses? I don't want to reread every post atm if that's the case FeelsBadMan

Either way, from what I've seen so far, your proposals aren't necessary and would do more to damage the game.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 7:27 pm

Swift wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
Swift wrote:Not sometimes, most of the time. You're not helping yourself by selecting "valid arguments" if you yourself don't know what exactly makes up a valid argument. I've seen you brush off a lot of valid ones so far.


Have you seen, how much my list of proposals has changed??

Did you update the opening post or have you updated them in your responses? I don't want to reread every post atm if that's the case FeelsBadMan

Either way, from what I've seen so far, your proposals aren't necessary and would do more to damage the game.


Er, updated the main post of course?
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Postby Crewfinity » Wed 09 May, 2018 7:55 pm

Youre still asking for more AC health, higher damage on KCSM champ, infiltrating raptors, and AV buffs for chaos lord, which as i recall seem very similar to your original proposals and were roundly criticized as being unnecessary changes to units that currently perform very well in their role, and seem to i dicate that you have a limited understanding of their strengths/how to use them.


From my position, nothing has changed.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 9:45 pm

Crewfinity wrote:Youre still asking for more AC health, higher damage on KCSM champ, infiltrating raptors, and AV buffs for chaos lord, which as i recall seem very similar to your original proposals and were roundly criticized as being unnecessary changes to units that currently perform very well in their role, and seem to i dicate that you have a limited understanding of their strengths/how to use them.


From my position, nothing has changed.


I ask for more AC health, because the base health of Chaos squads is lower, so the champion should be higher to somewhat compensate it.
Aside from that, even Indrid said, the AC's worth is questionable, exspecially when marks are applied.
Look at Torpid( sourcerer) vs Bruce Campbell( warlock) at 20.10.

MoK is too situational in the situations, where it works good and after T3, they are useless.

The "AV buff for the CL" is intended as not only giving chaos some heavy melee infantry options, but also making the blood maul worth its price.

And infiltrate for Raptors in stealth would benefit their utility and not directly their combat prowess and is therefore not an direct buff, because they will mostly work like before.
They are not brawlers but hunters, and that passive infiltrate would emphasize that.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Postby Torpid » Wed 09 May, 2018 10:42 pm

In that game vs Bruce I would have actually done a lot better if I went KCSM and BL+BC in t2... But that's tangential.

There's no reason to buff KCSM they're awesome atm. IG and eldar are both pretty vulnerable to them. And OM. But of course they're niche. They need to compete with BLs. And thye do. Being better cappers. Better vs ranged units and things like autarch.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Postby TE | NoSkill » Wed 09 May, 2018 10:52 pm

Torpid wrote:In that game vs Bruce I would have actually done a lot better if I went KCSM and BL+BC in t2... But that's tangential.

There's no reason to buff KCSM they're awesome atm. IG and eldar are both pretty vulnerable to them. And OM. But of course they're niche. They need to compete with BLs. And thye do. Being better cappers. Better vs ranged units and things like autarch.


Yeah, he went heavy on ranged + shurikan platforms.

My intent is to make MoK scale at least a bit better into the later game and the AC is the key to that. If he grants something to MoK marines, then it would do.
So, they are just an decent power melee squad with no utility.
Letters can phase shift and warp AND can get extra woreship support.
MoK marines only advantages are an ranged attack, a bit more speed and beeing cheaper.
But then they only have 3 models and if they take AC, they cost 50 power and the AC isn t even permanent
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Postby Nurland » Thu 10 May, 2018 6:46 am

They don't need help scaling. They do so just fine. I am not sure how many people need to tell this to you.

KCSM aren't the ultimate 3v3 unit and that's fine. They are way better in 2s and 1s and don't really need buffs. Again. If you can't make them work, it is mostly a L2P issue.

Also you seem to be missing the pount that KCSM are originally a ranged unit that suddenly turns into a melee one. It is a pretty big deal as MoK is cheap as hell. MoK CSM do need different counters than ranged CSM.

How exactly is raptors infiltrating in cover not a direct buff? They would get a new ability with 0 downsides for free. That is as direct of a buff as it can be...
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Postby Black Relic » Thu 10 May, 2018 6:47 am

If i would do Anything to KCSM in t3 it would be simple and fluffy, Bloodrage similar to the dreadnought. They go berserk, do more damage and then die from chasing a retreating squad.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!

Raptors are in need of no change. EXCEPT their energy cost for the jump when the get the melta guns could be lowered at the cost of jump range to allow for some form of counter play. But im not entirely convinced this needs to happen anyway.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Postby boss » Thu 10 May, 2018 8:32 am

I just stay try and use these units more before you want them buffed 1 or 2 games with them doing bad does not = I go to forums and ask for buffs otherwise we have tons of these posts but yea this topic should be nuke or somethink not much else to say.
Forums great more stuff to talk about.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Postby TE | NoSkill » Thu 10 May, 2018 12:19 pm

Nurland wrote:They don't need help scaling. They do so just fine. I am not sure how many people need to tell this to you.



Certainly a lot more if this is to what your argument breaks down after I brought mine forth.

Nurland wrote:
KCSM aren't the ultimate 3v3 unit and that's fine. They are way better in 2s and 1s and don't really need buffs. Again. If you can't make them work, it is mostly a L2P issue.

Also you seem to be missing the pount that KCSM are originally a ranged unit that suddenly turns into a melee one. It is a pretty big deal as MoK is cheap as hell. MoK CSM do need different counters than ranged CSM.



And it is absolutely necceasary, that they arent! But neither is having them as ok-ish niche option.
Making them work depends too much on the situation rather then player skill imo and that shouldn t be.

70 req ok, but 25 power?? "Eternal war" is cheap.
And they still suffer from suppression the same normal marines do. And their specialization needs them to actually get close akak presenting them as target for a lot of nasty T2 dmg types/weapons.
Btw, it seems normally people send even their standard CSM quiet often into melee.

Nurland wrote:How exactly is raptors infiltrating in cover not a direct buff? They would get a new ability with 0 downsides for free. That is as direct of a buff as it can be...


Because this is an dynamic game and it requires your opponent to fall for the trap instead of actively guiding him into it.
In the mobile warefare that is the game this ability would nt have any impact, but open paths for other tactics.
And usually armies move with detectors around, in 3v3 surely in 2v2 often and even in 1v1 most of the time.

2 opponents having the different raptor units in mobile combat wouldn t make out an difference.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Postby TE | NoSkill » Thu 10 May, 2018 12:23 pm

Black Relic wrote:If i would do Anything to KCSM in t3 it would be simple and fluffy, Bloodrage similar to the dreadnought. They go berserk, do more damage and then die from chasing a retreating squad.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!

Raptors are in need of no change. EXCEPT their energy cost for the jump when the get the melta guns could be lowered at the cost of jump range to allow for some form of counter play. But im not entirely convinced this needs to happen anyway.


Would be an good idea, so they at least would have something. The extra speed would have to be cut tho.

And again, the stealth-in-cover would only give them more options on how to start a fight and not influence their actual performance once in battle
See it as further tool for new tactics.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Postby Ayy Eye » Thu 10 May, 2018 12:24 pm

Ok so let me get this straight, you really like mok csm.
You can't use them properly after your HUGE number of play hours.
You think they need buffs.
Many other high lvl players are telling you they're already strong.
You're somehow unable to read(?)

Did I miss anything?

(Spelling edit)
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Postby TE | NoSkill » Thu 10 May, 2018 2:49 pm

Ayy Eye wrote:Ok so let me get this straight, you really like mok csm.
You can't use them properly after your HUGE number of play hours.
You think they need buffs.
Many other high lvl players are telling you they're already strong.
You're somehow unable to read(?)

Did I miss anything?

(Spelling edit)


I like standard CSM. MoK is an upgrade I use, if it is useful.
I can use them properly, IF the situation occurs (which is not often).
I think they need changes/additions to make them less situation dependant( which could be called a "buff" on an basic level).
I see the high tier players arguments and I read them. Then I put my argument forth.
Then I get no answer on that and "git gud" or "they are strong".

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