Chaos faction balance; weaker options

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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egewithin
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby egewithin » Mon 07 May, 2018 9:53 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
It is an bigger risk tho getting AC up, exspecially on CSM, because they are not so tanky and Chaos has only decent support at best, so playing offensively is a bit harder. Also the squad doesn t have an upgrade for which the AC could be needed. And slaughter is not usable anymore, if unit is marked. So they are somewhat useless in the lategame, can t even faster cap like tacs.
Having tougher AC´s would allow to play a bit more offensively while fit the theme of Chaos

Melee skill buff would set CSM apart and allow them to benefit more from melee combat for beeing
a) squishier
b) having higher melee damage

And regarding MoK; They are there to tie up ranged units and are no melee brawlers??? The Mark is effectively worse then slaughter! No higher melee skill nor damage output nor an bigger charge range!
It is more raptor style to attack weaker( ranged) targets, so why are MoK Marines regarded only as mop up unit?


Chaos Lord can scythe through infantry preatty well indeed, but not beeing able to threaten vehicles is a bit pathetic and leavs an big hole in the CSM roster. I mean, it makes the CL a lot less useful AND makes the weapon choices worse, for I only saw ppl get it for sweeping doom in case of massive blobz.
And I meant, that the "Instill fear" should happen on kill then.

Indeed AC on raptors can threaten vehicles. That takes a long enough time tho (except on manticores) and an player aware of his vehicles can doge them effectively. That is like saying Vanguard veterans don t need an powerfist, they already do enough damage.
And again as I said, it would fit the chaos theme; a few strong individuals (AC) followed by weaker ones. Would set the focus better on the indvidualistic style of chaos.

PS: Why have heretics 75 melee skill?


AC on Tzeentch marines = 33% damage buff, go figure

MoK CSM are fine, Chaos is already superior to any race in melee combat, what more do you want?

Yes, CL can't hit tanks, whats the deal? He is already really strong by him self, and has even more potential with his wargear

Raptors can take down Razorback, Chimeras and Wartrukks really fast, without geting an AV unit
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:02 pm

Kvn wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Blood letters are even cheaper then MoK CSM with champion.


Except that Bloodletters are a T2 unit... CSM come out in T1. They have an impact from the very start of the game. They get leveled in T1. Then you can upgrade them. That is the important thing. You are NOT buying a new CSM squad just for the sake of MoK. You will always have CSM to upgrade (unless you lost them/went for a very weird build order) so they become much easier to get out. You are spreading the cost over a period of time which is almost always preferable to dumping the upfront cost of a new squad. You don't seem to be understanding this point.

TE | NoSkill wrote:The way you describe it lets them seem very situation dependant. After this situation vanished, the you sit their with an not cost efficient squad of decent melee infantry, that don t scale.


Hmm... guess we'll need to heavily upgrade every av weapon in the game then since they no longer help you when the enemy vehicle is dead. Same for flamers, Dark Reapers, and half a dozen other units that lose relevance once their target niche is no longer open.

More realistically, that's not a bad thing in and of itself. If they countered everything, there'd be no point in buying anything else. You choose whether you want to build them, and whether or not the investment is worth it.

As for scaling, obviously they don't scale as well as MoT, but they are a much more aggressive purchase. They create/push an advantage when they come out and can seriously cripple the opponent when used well. MoT is the 'safer' choice while MoK is the higher-risk, higher-reward choice.

TE | NoSkill wrote:If they could at least change between MoK and MoT, that would make their situation acceptable, but as they cannot switch, they need to scale to justify the investment,


There are plenty of units that don't scale well when upgraded a certain way. Flamer Guardsmen in particular lose out on quite a bit of their late game potential. The point of getting the upgrade is to capitalize on the opening. It is, as I've said above, a much more aggressive tech path.


MoK gets avaible in T2. With all the upgrades, they cost more/are equal to blood letters in cost, while having a model less. Does the spread of the cost make it more acceptable? It would, if they wouldn t be so mediocre. The efficiency of their melee does not persist long enough.

They have nothing special going for them to justify this specialization while contending at the same time with other melee units like raptors or demons/ heretics. Dark Reapers can get barrage and are effective against heavy and superheavy and infantry, Lascannons are cheap, flamers reck units in cover and light buildings/effective against squishy blobs.

As you said, risk reward is much higher and imo it is too high, if even by a bit. Creating an unit, that sololey capitalizes onto a few special openings is not good.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:16 pm

egewithin wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
It is an bigger risk tho getting AC up, exspecially on CSM, because they are not so tanky and Chaos has only decent support at best, so playing offensively is a bit harder. Also the squad doesn t have an upgrade for which the AC could be needed. And slaughter is not usable anymore, if unit is marked. So they are somewhat useless in the lategame, can t even faster cap like tacs.
Having tougher AC´s would allow to play a bit more offensively while fit the theme of Chaos

Melee skill buff would set CSM apart and allow them to benefit more from melee combat for beeing
a) squishier
b) having higher melee damage

And regarding MoK; They are there to tie up ranged units and are no melee brawlers??? The Mark is effectively worse then slaughter! No higher melee skill nor damage output nor an bigger charge range!
It is more raptor style to attack weaker( ranged) targets, so why are MoK Marines regarded only as mop up unit?


Chaos Lord can scythe through infantry preatty well indeed, but not beeing able to threaten vehicles is a bit pathetic and leavs an big hole in the CSM roster. I mean, it makes the CL a lot less useful AND makes the weapon choices worse, for I only saw ppl get it for sweeping doom in case of massive blobz.
And I meant, that the "Instill fear" should happen on kill then.

Indeed AC on raptors can threaten vehicles. That takes a long enough time tho (except on manticores) and an player aware of his vehicles can doge them effectively. That is like saying Vanguard veterans don t need an powerfist, they already do enough damage.
And again as I said, it would fit the chaos theme; a few strong individuals (AC) followed by weaker ones. Would set the focus better on the indvidualistic style of chaos.

PS: Why have heretics 75 melee skill?


AC on Tzeentch marines = 33% damage buff, go figure

MoK CSM are fine, Chaos is already superior to any race in melee combat, what more do you want?

Yes, CL can't hit tanks, whats the deal? He is already really strong by him self, and has even more potential with his wargear

Raptors can take down Razorback, Chimeras and Wartrukks really fast, without geting an AV unit


Isn t it more like an 25% buff on MoT with AC (same weapon etc)?

It is not about the faction, it is about the validity of the choice of MoK not beeing cost effective as
a) melee squad
b) utility squad

CL not beeing able to fight tanks requires you to ALWAYS have AV in other form around, which means creating dependencies. He is slow, he has mediocre support and is geared to combat, but he cannot combat the most important type of armor in the game?
What would be so bad about giving him heavy melee?

Hes, Raptors could technically do so. But even for wartrukk (without armor upgrade) they need more then five hits. And landing those on an wartrukk with all the infantry AROUND requires a good portion of luck to pull off. It is not effective enough to be considered an legitimate AV option.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:17 pm

Ayy Eye wrote:the point is that mok csm are very situation dependant, they're not meant to be an auto option against everything.


There is still an large gap between "useful option" and "autopick"
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Nurland » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:20 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:So I noticed that, despite the chaos faction theme having individually strong, offense oriented units, there are some, that don t perform in the prolonged game/utility is bad.

Aspiring Champions: These guys have the same health for marginally more damage over an SM seargents. However, the base health of the squad is already lower, which makes the unit they are in quiet glass cannony.
Which makes sense, as these are whelps with inferior equipment and probably geneseed then the loyalists, but aspiring champions are normally tougher/ more experienced.


Suggestions: CSM champion +50 hp, Raptor champion +75 hp

Chaos Space Marines: Honestly, the utility of this unit lays only in Mark of Tzeentch. Don t have access to AP-weaponry nor utility upgrades.

+5 melee skill, Mark of Khorne grants aspiring Champion heavy melee or should make him do at least MORE damage +5 melee skill

Chaos Lord: Does not have an heavy melee weapon, which limits him A LOT and makes him less effective against all targets then the plague champion.

Suggestions; Make the "Blood Maul" do heavy melee, the ability "demonic visage" could now give the Chaos Lord the "Instill fear"-debuff from the Chaos Terminators.

Raptors: They aren t as tanky as the the ASM and don t hold as much utility, so they want to be comitted well. (As an Night Lord lover) they also don t have dem sneaky tactics and cannot be used for terror tactics (which they normally do, considering they prey on the weak).

Suggestions: Raptors can infiltrate in cover, Reduce their jump energy cost to 60


Some ideas flavour additions;

Dreadnaught: "Eternal war veteran" , T3-upgrade grants +20% health and stoicism, if mortally wounded.

Predator : "Heretecal improvements", T3 upgrade gives + 250 hp and gives it detector



Ok now... Aspiring Champions are great for all CSM squads. They are easily worth their price vanilla or with the marks. Absolutely 0 need for any buffs are the current state of the game.

KCSM are pretty good atm. If anything they need to cost more than they now do. Maybe back to 30 power. If you can't get stuff done with them, you are using them wrong. They already have 70 melee skill anyway with MoK so no need for extra melee skill. One of their biggest streghts lie i nthe fact that you can go from rnaged squad to a melee squad. No need to buy a new squad, just upgrade an existing one rather quickly on the field.

Chaos Lord does not need a heavy melee weapon. No way. Just no. Why should he get a 100dps heavy melee weapon with a stun? Maul is plenty strong as it is. Also why would you want to nerf Visage to a rather useless state... Unless maybe with combi-flamer against something like IG. Anyhow, AV isn't something you should be struggling with as Chaos.

Raptors have less hp than ASM but they have a lot more wipe potential especially T2. They are way harder counter to setup teams etc than ASM. Absolutely no need for buffs (the jump is already 60 power btw.)

Not sure if the Dread upgrade would be too good but probably not really needed. Might make leveled Chaos Dreads a tad bit too hard to deal with but hard to say. Chaos Preds should never have detection. Never. extra armor upgrade maybe but they already have a vide variety of upgrades. Why should they get the extra armor as well... Would just make them like SM Preds but better.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Kvn » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:22 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
MoK gets avaible in T2. With all the upgrades, they cost more/are equal to blood letters in cost, while having a model less. Does the spread of the cost make it more acceptable? It would, if they wouldn t be so mediocre. The efficiency of their melee does not persist long enough.


I realize this is probably pointless, but I'm going to try explaining it one last time. Your CSM come out in T1. They do things/kill enemies/assist map control/get levels/so on and so forth, and continue to function throughout T1. Then, after having done all of that stuff previously, you get to CHOOSE in T2 if you want them to upgrade to melee, ranged, or stay as they are to get the Slaughter ability.

Bloodletters do not come out in T1. They have no impact on the early game. They get no levels, assist with no map control, and provide no support to your other units until T2 comes around. They only come in melee variety. There is no choice. This is the same reasoning as to why a missile tac is so much weaker than a Lascannon while still being more expensive. It. Isn't. Meant. To. Be. On. Par. With. Them.

TE | NoSkill wrote:They have nothing special going for them to justify this specialization while contending at the same time with other melee units like raptors or demons/ heretics.


You've already been told multiple times what MoK CSM have going for them. If you choose to keep ignoring that, don't expect me to keep repeating myself.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Dark Reapers can get barrage


No... They can't. That ability was removed ages ago.

TE | NoSkill wrote:and are effective against heavy and superheavy and infantry,


Effective against HI and SHI only. Try using them against Guardsmen. You will not be impressed.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Lascannons are cheap,


So 30 power for Havocs is cheap, but 25 power for the MoK upgrade is expensive?

TE | NoSkill wrote:flamers reck units in cover and light buildings/effective against squishy blobs.


Buildings, yes. Cover and light infantry, not so much. There's a reason you only see people buy flamers for gen bashing and emergency de-garrisoning. Consider the fact that it also locks Guardsmen out of plasma guns which are almost always the better choice, and that it forces them to get much closer to their targets.

TE | NoSkill wrote:As you said, risk reward is much higher and imo it is too high, if even by a bit. Creating an unit, that sololey capitalizes onto a few special openings is not good.


Then don't buy them. Chaos is not hurting for melee. If it was, your argument might have more weight, but as it stands, they're a situation upgrade choice to compliment people who can't fit an entirely new melee squad into their build order.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:40 pm

Nurland wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:So I noticed that, despite the chaos faction theme having individually strong, offense oriented units, there are some, that don t perform in the prolonged game/utility is bad.

Aspiring Champions: These guys have the same health for marginally more damage over an SM seargents. However, the base health of the squad is already lower, which makes the unit they are in quiet glass cannony.
Which makes sense, as these are whelps with inferior equipment and probably geneseed then the loyalists, but aspiring champions are normally tougher/ more experienced.


Suggestions: CSM champion +50 hp, Raptor champion +75 hp

Chaos Space Marines: Honestly, the utility of this unit lays only in Mark of Tzeentch. Don t have access to AP-weaponry nor utility upgrades.

+5 melee skill, Mark of Khorne grants aspiring Champion heavy melee or should make him do at least MORE damage +5 melee skill

Chaos Lord: Does not have an heavy melee weapon, which limits him A LOT and makes him less effective against all targets then the plague champion.

Suggestions; Make the "Blood Maul" do heavy melee, the ability "demonic visage" could now give the Chaos Lord the "Instill fear"-debuff from the Chaos Terminators.

Raptors: They aren t as tanky as the the ASM and don t hold as much utility, so they want to be comitted well. (As an Night Lord lover) they also don t have dem sneaky tactics and cannot be used for terror tactics (which they normally do, considering they prey on the weak).

Suggestions: Raptors can infiltrate in cover, Reduce their jump energy cost to 60


Some ideas flavour additions;

Dreadnaught: "Eternal war veteran" , T3-upgrade grants +20% health and stoicism, if mortally wounded.

Predator : "Heretecal improvements", T3 upgrade gives + 250 hp and gives it detector



Ok now... Aspiring Champions are great for all CSM squads. They are easily worth their price vanilla or with the marks. Absolutely 0 need for any buffs are the current state of the game.

KCSM are pretty good atm. If anything they need to cost more than they now do. Maybe back to 30 power. If you can't get stuff done with them, you are using them wrong. They already have 70 melee skill anyway with MoK so no need for extra melee skill. One of their biggest streghts lie i nthe fact that you can go from rnaged squad to a melee squad. No need to buy a new squad, just upgrade an existing one rather quickly on the field.

Chaos Lord does not need a heavy melee weapon. No way. Just no. Why should he get a 100dps heavy melee weapon with a stun? Maul is plenty strong as it is. Also why would you want to nerf Visage to a rather useless state... Unless maybe with combi-flamer against something like IG. Anyhow, AV isn't something you should be struggling with as Chaos.

Raptors have less hp than ASM but they have a lot more wipe potential especially T2. They are way harder counter to setup teams etc than ASM. Absolutely no need for buffs (the jump is already 60 power btw.)

Not sure if the Dread upgrade would be too good but probably not really needed. Might make leveled Chaos Dreads a tad bit too hard to deal with but hard to say. Chaos Preds should never have detection. Never. extra armor upgrade maybe but they already have a vide variety of upgrades. Why should they get the extra armor as well... Would just make them like SM Preds but better.



It didn t say in the codex nore in the tool tip, that they have 70 melee skill. Even with that, the unit does lack the damage and the utility in the long run to justify the cost. Even the AC is not persistant.
The higher hp for the AC was thought as compensation for the lower base health the CSM squad has and to justify the cost of the AC a bit more, because the AC does "only" grant slaughter (starting on CD) and does nothing on Mark.

The stun on maul is an possibility and costs 50 energy with CD. And the CL has to get their AND hope the enemy does not move dduring the windeup.
Demonic visage do neither I use nor those, that I played with and I cannot remember the last time I saw it on Indrids casts. Creative ideas for an solution ?


Again, the codex said 65. Good thing, if it is already lower. The wipe potential is definitly higher, yet their lower health with the lack of support chaos has negates that well, exspecially with the T2 melee squads hitting the field.
I only suggested more utility for Raptors ( and a bit more hp for AC)


The ideas for new upgrades were a sidenote; I don t know, what predator could get otheriwse tho
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Ayy Eye » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:43 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote: The ideas for new upgrades were a sidenote; I don t know, what predator could get otheriwse tho


Probably because pred doesn't need anything else.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby egewithin » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:44 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
egewithin wrote:AC on Tzeentch marines = 33% damage buff, go figure


Isn t it more like an 25% buff on MoT with AC (same weapon etc)?


Wow, at this point, I see no light in you buddy.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Broodwich » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:47 pm

at this point, this has to be a troll. or a trump supporter
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:47 pm

egewithin wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
egewithin wrote:AC on Tzeentch marines = 33% damage buff, go figure


Isn t it more like an 25% buff on MoT with AC (same weapon etc)?


Wow, at this point, I see no light in you buddy.


Well, don t blame me because of Math xD
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:49 pm

Broodwich wrote:at this point, this has to be a troll. or a trump supporter


There are more stubborn people on the world then those 2.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby egewithin » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:50 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Well, don t blame me because of Math xD


I can accept having no skills in this game, like antadron, aminion, boss, etc... but having no logic is unacceptible I am afraid.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:54 pm

egewithin wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Well, don t blame me because of Math xD


I can accept having no skills in this game, like antadron, aminion, boss, etc... but having no logic is unacceptible I am afraid.


I´m tired as hell after having 2 days nearly not slept and I have wrote an exam this moring, so.....
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby egewithin » Mon 07 May, 2018 10:56 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
egewithin wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Well, don t blame me because of Math xD


I can accept having no skills in this game, like antadron, aminion, boss, etc... but having no logic is unacceptible I am afraid.


I´m tired as hell after having 2 days nearly not slept and I have wrote an exam this moring, so.....


That explains how you toughed ''detection on pred is a good idea''

I don't care about your math don't worry, but that wish list is like, daaaaymmm!..
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 11:00 pm

egewithin wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
egewithin wrote:
I can accept having no skills in this game, like antadron, aminion, boss, etc... but having no logic is unacceptible I am afraid.


I´m tired as hell after having 2 days nearly not slept and I have wrote an exam this moring, so.....


That explains how you toughed ''detection on pred is a good idea''

I don't care about your math don't worry, but that wish list is like, daaaaymmm!..


Creativity is what makes an game good. Only changing the existing stuff provides limited option. New stuff provides more options.

It´s not like I absolutely demand those changes, I thought about making the game more interesting ( while having in Chaos undivided phase xD)
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Kvn » Mon 07 May, 2018 11:01 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:Well, don t blame me because of Math xD


How's this for math?

CSM squad is made up of three squad members

100% of the squad's damage / 3 members = roughly 33%

AC in your equation adds the same damage as another model which is, surprise surprise, roughly 33%

100% of the base squad damage + 33% = 133% damage output when upgraded with the AC.

A 25% increase would assume that CSM started with four models.

Instead of trying to be witty, you should likely pay more attention to what people are saying.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 11:15 pm

Kvn wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
MoK gets avaible in T2. With all the upgrades, they cost more/are equal to blood letters in cost, while having a model less. Does the spread of the cost make it more acceptable? It would, if they wouldn t be so mediocre. The efficiency of their melee does not persist long enough.


I realize this is probably pointless, but I'm going to try explaining it one last time. Your CSM come out in T1. They do things/kill enemies/assist map control/get levels/so on and so forth, and continue to function throughout T1. Then, after having done all of that stuff previously, you get to CHOOSE in T2 if you want them to upgrade to melee, ranged, or stay as they are to get the Slaughter ability.

Bloodletters do not come out in T1. They have no impact on the early game. They get no levels, assist with no map control, and provide no support to your other units until T2 comes around. They only come in melee variety. There is no choice. This is the same reasoning as to why a missile tac is so much weaker than a Lascannon while still being more expensive. It. Isn't. Meant. To. Be. On. Par. With. Them.

TE | NoSkill wrote:They have nothing special going for them to justify this specialization while contending at the same time with other melee units like raptors or demons/ heretics.


You've already been told multiple times what MoK CSM have going for them. If you choose to keep ignoring that, don't expect me to keep repeating myself.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Dark Reapers can get barrage


No... They can't. That ability was removed ages ago.

TE | NoSkill wrote:and are effective against heavy and superheavy and infantry,


Effective against HI and SHI only. Try using them against Guardsmen. You will not be impressed.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Lascannons are cheap,


So 30 power for Havocs is cheap, but 25 power for the MoK upgrade is expensive?

TE | NoSkill wrote:flamers reck units in cover and light buildings/effective against squishy blobs.


Buildings, yes. Cover and light infantry, not so much. There's a reason you only see people buy flamers for gen bashing and emergency de-garrisoning. Consider the fact that it also locks Guardsmen out of plasma guns which are almost always the better choice, and that it forces them to get much closer to their targets.

TE | NoSkill wrote:As you said, risk reward is much higher and imo it is too high, if even by a bit. Creating an unit, that sololey capitalizes onto a few special openings is not good.


Then don't buy them. Chaos is not hurting for melee. If it was, your argument might have more weight, but as it stands, they're a situation upgrade choice to compliment people who can't fit an entirely new melee squad into their build order.




Yet the choice they can make is unequal in disfavour of MoK.
MoK does not have any effect in T1.
It is simply an cost ineffective choice to only get an decent unit with no utility, while you could get an unit, that does this exact the same way much better.

Missle tacs are not that much weaker, they simply have other uses. A bit less, shorter range damage costing more for the advantage on beeing on an 1050 hp squad with much more mobility and quicker reaction time. This means, tacs work BETTER in more mobile engagements.

MoK Marines have quick transform choice to ustilize an opening? Is it that?

Didn t know about barrage ability, codex still showd it and played ages no eldar.

Normaly ppl don t get reapers against IG?

No, the 75 req is cheap. And facing armored targets is INEVTABLE, so it is not completely pointles, unlike MoK after they took that "opening".

The fact alone, how good flamers bash power makes it an good enough choice and it works also in other situations well enough.

It is not, that I want them to become an entirely different new unit, but rather the cost inefficiency in thel ong run and against comparable units in melee
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Mon 07 May, 2018 11:18 pm

Kvn wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:Well, don t blame me because of Math xD


How's this for math?

CSM squad is made up of three squad members

100% of the squad's damage / 3 members = roughly 33%

AC in your equation adds the same damage as another model which is, surprise surprise, roughly 33%

100% of the base squad damage + 33% = 133% damage output when upgraded with the AC.

A 25% increase would assume that CSM started with four models.

Instead of trying to be witty, you should likely pay more attention to what people are saying.


He doubted hopes for me, because of failing this calculation. That´s my response and such mistakes happen the easiest to me.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby Kvn » Mon 07 May, 2018 11:33 pm

You know, I fully understand that I shouldn't even bother responding here, but I still feel compelled to. Let it be known that this is the last one, as I'm tired of debating this with you. Everything you've pointed out has been addressed multiple times.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Yet the choice they can make is unequal in disfavour of MoK.


No it is not. I've said it over and over, yet you still refuse to hear it. MoK is very good at what it does, but that doesn't mean it is supposed to do everything. It is a Niche. Upgrade. Do you understand what niche means? It means that the upgrade has a specific and limited use, but serves that use well.

TE | NoSkill wrote:MoK does not have any effect in T1.


I'm not trying to be an asshole, but the amount of facepalming I did when you said this... What part of "upgrade for a T1 unit" are you not getting here?

TE | NoSkill wrote:It is simply an cost ineffective choice to only get an decent unit with no utility, while you could get an unit, that does this exact the same way much better.


Because it DOES have utility, the CSM will have exp from combat in T1 (leveling is a very big deal for melee), and it DOESN'T FORCE YOU TO BUILD A NEW SQUAD! I'm sorry, but really now. You are completely ignoring all the good things about MoK.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Missle tacs are not that much weaker, they simply have other uses. A bit less, shorter range damage costing more for the advantage on beeing on an 1050 hp squad with much more mobility and quicker reaction time. This means, tacs work BETTER in more mobile engagements.


Not even going to dignify this by pointing out why you are mistaken.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Didn t know about barrage ability, codex still showd it and played ages no eldar.


The codex doesn't show it, and it's been gone for a very long time. If you haven't played an Eldar opponent since its removal, you probably haven't been playing the game, period.


TE | NoSkill wrote:Normaly ppl don t get reapers against IG?


Normally people don't get Reapers at all. They are every bit as niche a unit as MoK CSM.

TE | NoSkill wrote:No, the 75 req is cheap. And facing armored targets is INEVTABLE, so it is not completely pointles, unlike MoK after they took that "opening".


...I seriously don't understand your logic. "Even though the base squad costs more power, the upgrade is cheaper than the one I'm talking about so therefore a Lascannon is cheaper." As for a vehicle being inevitable, not it is not. If you see your opponent is getting av, you can choose to not build a vehicle. It's a very simple concept.

TE | NoSkill wrote:The fact alone, how good flamers bash power makes it an good enough choice and it works also in other situations well enough.


Except they are a downgrade in straight combat against most targets and scale even worse than MoK CSM since they don't provide HP regen, speed, or close combat ability to the squad they're equipped on, hence why I brought them up in the first place.

TE | NoSkill wrote:It is not, that I want them to become an entirely different new unit, but rather the cost inefficiency in thel ong run and against comparable units in melee


They are not cost inefficient when used properly. From everything you've said here, it leads me to believe that you aren't using them properly. They are not a unit you buy every game and use for the core of your army. They likely never will be. Before you start demanding something be buffed, you need to be sure that you fully understand how it is meant to be utilized. That, and you need to start listening when people tell you stuff instead of assuming that the unit you're using has nothing going for them.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Oddnerd » Tue 08 May, 2018 3:04 am

Aspiring Champions: These guys have the same health for marginally more damage over an SM seargents. However, the base health of the squad is already lower, which makes the unit they are in quiet glass cannony.
Which makes sense, as these are whelps with inferior equipment and probably geneseed then the loyalists, but aspiring champions are normally tougher/ more experienced.
Suggestions: CSM champion +50 hp, Raptor champion +75 hp

Rule 1 of getting taken seriously by the Elite mod forums - don't argue that Unit X from 1 race roster and Unit Y from another race roster cost similar amounts but don't seem equally good so there must be a balance issue. Balance is about internal balance within rosters, rather than between rosters for single units. That's the whole point of asymmetric balance. If you do balance in a vacuum, the Slugga Nob is the most broken, under-priced son of a bitch in DOW2 history, but he is actually quite fine within the ork roster, since he is necessary to make sluggas scale well into the mid-late game.

Chaos Space Marines: Honestly, the utility of this unit lays only in Mark of Tzeentch. Don t have access to AP-weaponry nor utility upgrades.

+5 melee skill, Mark of Khorne grants aspiring Champion heavy melee or should make him do at least MORE damage

MOT is not critical against non-HI races. I get plenty of utility out of vanilla CSM - slaughter is such a beastly ability, and makes the AC well worth his cost. You take a bread-and-butter ranged combat unit and, in a pinch, turn it into a squad that can hold its own against many dedicated melee units with a little support (or none at all).

Chaos Lord: Does not have an heavy melee weapon, which limits him A LOT and makes him less effective against all targets then the plague champion.
Suggestions; Make the "Blood Maul" do heavy melee, the ability "demonic visage" could now give the Chaos Lord the "Instill fear"-debuff from the Chaos Terminators.

Chaos has plenty of AV, commanders don't all have to be AV-capable. The CL can already equip himself to punish infantry blobs, or specialize in single target annihilation (claws/drain life/heal on every attack). There is no rule that says he should have AV.

Raptors: They aren t as tanky as the the ASM and don t hold as much utility, so they want to be comitted well. (As an Night Lord lover) they also don t have dem sneaky tactics and cannot be used for terror tactics (which they normally do, considering they prey on the weak).

Suggestions: Raptors can infiltrate in cover, Reduce their jump energy cost to 60

I agree raptors seem underwhelming compared to ASMs, but the change you have proposed seems a bit too unusual.

Predator : "Heretecal improvements", T3 upgrade gives + 250 hp and gives it detector

Why? The chaos predator is already more versatile than it loyalist counterpart. Why should it be flat out better?
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Nurland » Tue 08 May, 2018 5:40 am

AC doesn't do "nothing" with marks... Also if you say MoK CSM have no support from.Chaos, you are not using your faction properly. Worship, doomblast and globals come to mind first.

Visage never used? It is still imho his best accessory. Has been for the past 6 years. That is a playstyle thing tho. How you wanna use the CL and so on.

Being able to transform a ranged squad into a pretty decent melee squad for cheap is a strong ability since KCSM are countered differently than TCSM.

KCSM are also excellent counter initiation/screenin or even capping unit.

I'll happily play you some with my CL or watch a replay of yours (or two) with you and go through some of this stuff.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weak units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 2:09 pm

Kvn wrote:You know, I fully understand that I shouldn't even bother responding here, but I still feel compelled to. Let it be known that this is the last one, as I'm tired of debating this with you. Everything you've pointed out has been addressed multiple times.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Yet the choice they can make is unequal in disfavour of MoK.


No it is not. I've said it over and over, yet you still refuse to hear it. MoK is very good at what it does, but that doesn't mean it is supposed to do everything. It is a Niche. Upgrade. Do you understand what niche means? It means that the upgrade has a specific and limited use, but serves that use well.

TE | NoSkill wrote:MoK does not have any effect in T1.


I'm not trying to be an asshole, but the amount of facepalming I did when you said this... What part of "upgrade for a T1 unit" are you not getting here?

TE | NoSkill wrote:It is simply an cost ineffective choice to only get an decent unit with no utility, while you could get an unit, that does this exact the same way much better.


Because it DOES have utility, the CSM will have exp from combat in T1 (leveling is a very big deal for melee), and it DOESN'T FORCE YOU TO BUILD A NEW SQUAD! I'm sorry, but really now. You are completely ignoring all the good things about MoK.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Missle tacs are not that much weaker, they simply have other uses. A bit less, shorter range damage costing more for the advantage on beeing on an 1050 hp squad with much more mobility and quicker reaction time. This means, tacs work BETTER in more mobile engagements.


Not even going to dignify this by pointing out why you are mistaken.

TE | NoSkill wrote:Didn t know about barrage ability, codex still showd it and played ages no eldar.


The codex doesn't show it, and it's been gone for a very long time. If you haven't played an Eldar opponent since its removal, you probably haven't been playing the game, period.


TE | NoSkill wrote:Normaly ppl don t get reapers against IG?


Normally people don't get Reapers at all. They are every bit as niche a unit as MoK CSM.

TE | NoSkill wrote:No, the 75 req is cheap. And facing armored targets is INEVTABLE, so it is not completely pointles, unlike MoK after they took that "opening".


...I seriously don't understand your logic. "Even though the base squad costs more power, the upgrade is cheaper than the one I'm talking about so therefore a Lascannon is cheaper." As for a vehicle being inevitable, not it is not. If you see your opponent is getting av, you can choose to not build a vehicle. It's a very simple concept.

TE | NoSkill wrote:The fact alone, how good flamers bash power makes it an good enough choice and it works also in other situations well enough.


Except they are a downgrade in straight combat against most targets and scale even worse than MoK CSM since they don't provide HP regen, speed, or close combat ability to the squad they're equipped on, hence why I brought them up in the first place.

TE | NoSkill wrote:It is not, that I want them to become an entirely different new unit, but rather the cost inefficiency in thel ong run and against comparable units in melee


They are not cost inefficient when used properly. From everything you've said here, it leads me to believe that you aren't using them properly. They are not a unit you buy every game and use for the core of your army. They likely never will be. Before you start demanding something be buffed, you need to be sure that you fully understand how it is meant to be utilized. That, and you need to start listening when people tell you stuff instead of assuming that the unit you're using has nothing going for them.


It was said, that Bloodletters don t have impact in T1. Thats why I pointed out MoK does not have any effect in T1.

And missle tacs are an better allrounder choice until you disprove it!

And no, I didn t play against an Eldar opponent since its removal, who actually brought reapers. Doesn t discredit me tho.


My logic is, that while the base squad is constantly useful with suppression, it also can get an longrange AV weapon cheaply, that ALSO can hit large models and can therefore be used broader then MoK and their "opening". They scale well.

Flamers niche is broad enough AND the guard has a lot of cheap options to compensate the not so cost-efficient flamers. And one has to get into CQC first to utilize MoK. Considering, they cannot stand up to melee squads, it is rather risky to go MoK instead MoT and blast everything from afar with 35+ dmage per hit.

It is too situational and for that, the cost ain t right.

Can t fight melee squads -> bad
Can t fight armor -> bad
Don t have utility-> bad
Have to be used risky in an army with noearly no healing damage resistance buffs -> bad

That s what I see and what is worst in 3v3.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 3:11 pm

Oddnerd wrote:
Aspiring Champions: These guys have the same health for marginally more damage over an SM seargents. However, the base health of the squad is already lower, which makes the unit they are in quiet glass cannony.
Which makes sense, as these are whelps with inferior equipment and probably geneseed then the loyalists, but aspiring champions are normally tougher/ more experienced.
Suggestions: CSM champion +50 hp, Raptor champion +75 hp

Rule 1 of getting taken seriously by the Elite mod forums - don't argue that Unit X from 1 race roster and Unit Y from another race roster cost similar amounts but don't seem equally good so there must be a balance issue. Balance is about internal balance within rosters, rather than between rosters for single units. That's the whole point of asymmetric balance. If you do balance in a vacuum, the Slugga Nob is the most broken, under-priced son of a bitch in DOW2 history, but he is actually quite fine within the ork roster, since he is necessary to make sluggas scale well into the mid-late game.

Chaos Space Marines: Honestly, the utility of this unit lays only in Mark of Tzeentch. Don t have access to AP-weaponry nor utility upgrades.

+5 melee skill, Mark of Khorne grants aspiring Champion heavy melee or should make him do at least MORE damage

MOT is not critical against non-HI races. I get plenty of utility out of vanilla CSM - slaughter is such a beastly ability, and makes the AC well worth his cost. You take a bread-and-butter ranged combat unit and, in a pinch, turn it into a squad that can hold its own against many dedicated melee units with a little support (or none at all).

Chaos Lord: Does not have an heavy melee weapon, which limits him A LOT and makes him less effective against all targets then the plague champion.
Suggestions; Make the "Blood Maul" do heavy melee, the ability "demonic visage" could now give the Chaos Lord the "Instill fear"-debuff from the Chaos Terminators.

Chaos has plenty of AV, commanders don't all have to be AV-capable. The CL can already equip himself to punish infantry blobs, or specialize in single target annihilation (claws/drain life/heal on every attack). There is no rule that says he should have AV.

Raptors: They aren t as tanky as the the ASM and don t hold as much utility, so they want to be comitted well. (As an Night Lord lover) they also don t have dem sneaky tactics and cannot be used for terror tactics (which they normally do, considering they prey on the weak).

Suggestions: Raptors can infiltrate in cover, Reduce their jump energy cost to 60

I agree raptors seem underwhelming compared to ASMs, but the change you have proposed seems a bit too unusual.

Predator : "Heretecal improvements", T3 upgrade gives + 250 hp and gives it detector

Why? The chaos predator is already more versatile than it loyalist counterpart. Why should it be flat out better?



My argument for the AC getting hp buffs is the already lower base health of the squad and the lack of healing/damage resistance buffs chaos has. Therefore, units need to be more self reliant.

MoT CSM do amazing damage even against non HI and SHI. MoK don t do the damage savely nor fast enough to compete for that. On top of that, they lose slaughter when marked and don t have anything special going for them in regards of utility.
Slaughters is good, yet that still does not solve CSM core problem of having scale problems AND not beeing able to contend with other melee squads efficiently enough to make up for the lack of support in the chaos roster.


Chaos does not have heavy melee infantry anymore. That, and the usefulness of the weapon option is my problem;
Slow attack animation on slow model, only normal damage, and sweeping doom does have an long wind up and does not have an passive knockback like FC Thunderhammer as compensation for the damage type.
That would solve 2 things with one strike, considering heavy melee wouldn t effect the performance on the normal /HI targets.


It is even said in the tool tip, that raptors like to prey on the weak and ambush, so that would give them more utility, as they cannot be buffed for melee for obvious reasons although they perform a bit weak atm.


That with the predator and dreadnaught was an idea to bring a bit fresh wind into the fold ( and I have an chaos undivided phase).
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 3:13 pm

Nurland wrote:AC doesn't do "nothing" with marks... Also if you say MoK CSM have no support from.Chaos, you are not using your faction properly. Worship, doomblast and globals come to mind first.

Visage never used? It is still imho his best accessory. Has been for the past 6 years. That is a playstyle thing tho. How you wanna use the CL and so on.

Being able to transform a ranged squad into a pretty decent melee squad for cheap is a strong ability since KCSM are countered differently than TCSM.

KCSM are also excellent counter initiation/screenin or even capping unit.

I'll happily play you some with my CL or watch a replay of yours (or two) with you and go through some of this stuff.



Visage requires your slow CL to get into melee first and is more an melee counter item. It is at least a bit too expensive in this state
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Nurland » Tue 08 May, 2018 3:53 pm

Yes. It is more of a counter initiation wargear. Still I fail to see how that makes it bad. It is a strong debuff.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Ace of Swords » Tue 08 May, 2018 5:34 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Nurland wrote:AC doesn't do "nothing" with marks... Also if you say MoK CSM have no support from.Chaos, you are not using your faction properly. Worship, doomblast and globals come to mind first.

Visage never used? It is still imho his best accessory. Has been for the past 6 years. That is a playstyle thing tho. How you wanna use the CL and so on.

Being able to transform a ranged squad into a pretty decent melee squad for cheap is a strong ability since KCSM are countered differently than TCSM.

KCSM are also excellent counter initiation/screenin or even capping unit.

I'll happily play you some with my CL or watch a replay of yours (or two) with you and go through some of this stuff.



Visage requires your slow CL to get into melee first and is more an melee counter item. It is at least a bit too expensive in this state


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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Cyris » Tue 08 May, 2018 5:40 pm

This thread is impossibly hard to read. I hope there isn't anything useful in it? Not sure what is trying to be solved with the OPs changes.

Quick take: Raptor and CSM ACs are both in a fine place now imo, MoK CSM are incredibly good at their jobs, CL does not need heavy melee at all, he's already amazingly good early and scales well late.
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby TE | NoSkill » Tue 08 May, 2018 6:47 pm

Nurland wrote:Yes. It is more of a counter initiation wargear. Still I fail to see how that makes it bad. It is a strong debuff.


The fact, that it is bound to hitting the enemy first!

For the price it holds, it is not good enough on the slow chaos lord ( neglecting any buffs and debuffs).
Ace of Swords wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:
Nurland wrote:AC doesn't do "nothing" with marks... Also if you say MoK CSM have no support from.Chaos, you are not using your faction properly. Worship, doomblast and globals come to mind first.

Visage never used? It is still imho his best accessory. Has been for the past 6 years. That is a playstyle thing tho. How you wanna use the CL and so on.

Being able to transform a ranged squad into a pretty decent melee squad for cheap is a strong ability since KCSM are countered differently than TCSM.

KCSM are also excellent counter initiation/screenin or even capping unit.

I'll happily play you some with my CL or watch a replay of yours (or two) with you and go through some of this stuff.



Visage requires your slow CL to get into melee first and is more an melee counter item. It is at least a bit too expensive in this state


Image


If we are going by that, I might add that the item comes in T2 first and in T1 are already stuns avaible ( Crippling poison, sentinel stomp, Waaghboss stomp etc)


Cyris wrote:This thread is impossibly hard to read. I hope there isn't anything useful in it? Not sure what is trying to be solved with the OPs changes.

Quick take: Raptor and CSM ACs are both in a fine place now imo, MoK CSM are incredibly good at their jobs, CL does not need heavy melee at all, he's already amazingly good early and scales well late.


Improving the game, what else?
To be more specific; elaborating the performanceo f some chaos units under consideration of their higher need of self reliance.

Raptors are not good enough at their offensive jump troop role with only decent hp and not good enough support.
AC I suggested, because of the higher risk, that lies in taking him over something else and as compensation for lower base squad health of chaos infantry.

MoK are not as cost efficient as MoT and cannot compete to higher melee squads nor do they scale ecen decently. Basically throw away after T 2.

It is not about the CL , but more about making the weapon choice more desireable.
No heavy melee infantry is an problem for an army, even IG has an heavy melee squad.
You can t say the CL scales well, if he has to run away from units with vehicle armor...
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Re: Chaos faction balance; weaker units.

Postby Ace of Swords » Tue 08 May, 2018 6:52 pm

TE | NoSkill wrote:
Nurland wrote:Yes. It is more of a counter initiation wargear. Still I fail to see how that makes it bad. It is a strong debuff.


The fact, that it is bound to hitting the enemy first!

For the price it holds, it is not good enough on the slow chaos lord ( neglecting any buffs and debuffs).
Ace of Swords wrote:
TE | NoSkill wrote:

Visage requires your slow CL to get into melee first and is more an melee counter item. It is at least a bit too expensive in this state


Image


If we are going by that, I might add that the item comes in T2 first and in T1 are already stuns avaible ( Crippling poison, sentinel stomp, Waaghboss stomp etc)




It was already explained to you, the factions are different and have to deal with different threats, if he's focusing all of his CC on your CL you've already won the engagement.
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