Grey Knights Topic

[Dark Riku]

And i wanna pc to have atleast a little melee dmg( wtf 6 , techmarine 20) because he has melee charge it does shit if he has no dmg.

GK topic. What are the pc and tm doing here? -.-
People want so many things. Making the heroes the same isn't helping the game.
You want pc to be the same? Add melee dmg, Remove his DoT, remove his ability to fire under suppression, ... Doesn't sound so good now does it?

[PanKiller]

Pc doesnt have any dedicated ranged weapon (STILL FUUUUUC) and u complain about him ? And how does he counter melee? Most chamoions crush him in melee even if he is fully geared out .

[Caeltos]

Stick to the topic. There's a Chaos related thread for Chaos-related stuff.

[winkel]

Spent a good few hours in beta putting GK through it's paces.
Mines look solid (really hope the shared cd on mines is unintended) and everything else mostly seem to be working as advertised.

All in all things are looking up, but they will not (sadface) help GK where they're most vulnerable.
However, the fix is well within reach and it'll only require a few tweaks to make it reality.

In contrast to my 7 page post, I'll use a more straightforward approach this time, with a slight bit of copy/paste, to highlight what I (solo mio) think is necessary in order to make GK reach the point of indistinguishable balance.
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Issues:

The Strike Squad has a lot of the melee deterrents that GK would like to have to deal with melee builds, but the upgrades are not available in t1.

The Interceptor Squad doesn’t disrupt in t1 where GK has trouble dealing with melee squads.

The Krak Grenade is unfit for purpose unless you’re fighting mega tanks. It’s ground targeted, got a small radius and a generous fuse.

The Purgation Squad don't suppress.

GK doesn’t have any on-the-field reinforcement before they’ve spent 800/200/250 in t3, which hurts the viability of infantry based builds – furthermore, the thing is riddled with bugs, which can easily result in GG.

The GK Dreadnought variants (sans with Dreadnought Claws) will be overpriced come next patch due to the removal of Maelstrom.
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Proposed fixes:

- Abilities tied to Nemesis Focus upgrade as a t1 upgrade, while the Justicar gives cooldown reduction and melee skill

- Furious Intervention tied to Nemesis Focus upgrade as a t1 upgrade and Justicar is now coupled with the damage and health upgrade

- Krak Grenade getting a buff (AoE, snare length, shorter fuse) or replaced with Melta Bomb

- Purgation courage dmg scales with proximity, the closer the target is to the squad, the faster it'll be suppressed

- Combined heavy bolter and armor upgrade with reinforcement that transforms the vehicle into a vanilla SM Razorback for ~150/35 (with reduced hp) - Still upgradable with lascannon

- Vanilla Dreadnought price reduction
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Expected results:

Versatility - fixed

Lack of reliable AV - fixed

Inability to deal with melee in t1 - fixed

Sustainability of a larger infantry force - fixed

Lack of artillery - fixed
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Closing:

Unlike my big post I'm not being vague this time - this means 2 things:
- Now I have an opinion and I'm letting it out
- I have 100% confidence in these proposed changes

Come at me Brothers : )
(Show Me What Passes For Rage Among Your Misbegotten Kind !)

[Kvek]

Meh sometimes good points. But anyway. Why will he get 20% damage reduction (BC) when having the unending purge ? Seriously this is crazy he is already tanky, and owns in t2 yet you still buff him WHY and once more WHY ?

[FiSH]

many good points. one thing i was thinking:

Issues:
The Strike Squad has a lot of the melee deterrents that GK would like to have to deal with melee builds, but the upgrades are not available in t1.
The Interceptor Squad doesn’t disrupt in t1 where GK has trouble dealing with melee squads.
Proposed fixes:
- Abilities tied to Nemesis Focus upgrade as a t1 upgrade, while the Justicar gives cooldown reduction and melee skill
- Furious Intervention tied to Nemesis Focus upgrade as a t1 upgrade and Justicar is now coupled with the damage and health upgrade

what do you think about bro cap's T1 weapon upgrade doing special attack on WATH, similar to battlecry, but only at a percentage like 50%? as it is, almost noone gets the weapon, opting for T2 weapons, and this will help with GK deal with melee. as for your proposals, giving those options to two already somewhat strong squads may give GK a very strong melee presence in T1 (mantle+furious intervention combo in T1? that may be too much). this requires tweaks to the weapon cost ofc, increase cost by 5 power and 10~20 req maybe?

[Kvek]

sigh GK are retarded.

[winkel]

@kvek

lololol HAHAHAH
He litterally posts this 1 min after being beaten by me where he played eldar

[Kvek]

It was a gg after u nuked me so.
And GK are retarded in the next patch, Right now they are just somewhat strange

[winkel]

@FiSH

Assuming that the mantle+furious intervention combo in t2 was fixed by the reduction of the energy granted by Canticle of Absolution
- Spending 95 power in t1, which carries a lot of risks and will result in you playing catchup in tech
- For 95 power you'll be able to jump 3-4 times with a medium area of disruption, while you can currently jump twice with ASM with a large area of disruption for only 50 power

This doesn't really seem unbalanced to me.
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Anything increasing the likelihood of GK special attacks have the potential of making them incredibly OP : )

[FiSH]

let's imagine a specific matchup, for example, WSE vs GK
GK goes 3x storm (no upgrades) into fast intercepter, furious intervention + mantle.
what can the WSE possibly do against this build?

i can definitely see your point about special attacks being OP with GK, tho. tough...

[winkel]

@FiSH

You intrigue me sir : )

A mix of dire avengers and shees with the optional ranger.

In t2, which shouldn't occur too far after getting mantle+furious intervention on the field (95 power), you'll have the option to get anti-grav grenades, entangling web or maybe even a wraithlord.

[Dark Riku]

Just go standard build and rape face? :p

Shes behind shury to get the interceptors alone.
Wse can tp in to deal with the storms.
Together with some DA with shields/grenades.

[FiSH]

lol i'm not literally asking what options does eldar have, more showing a concern for furious intervention in T1 along canticle just raping shees.
i just thought they needed some form of knockback on demand as an active ability - similar to battlecry or kill the weak - rather than passive buff to their roster, but you probably know better, winkel. i do think FS destroys GK, for example, hence the reason for suggesting KB rather than buffing GK's melee potential.

[Vapor]

I think it's a good idea to give GK a bunch of new stuff even if potentially OP. There's no way to tell what's going to happen without some playtesting... although maybe it'd be wise to ban GK from tournaments if things get over the top.

[Asmon]

let's imagine a specific matchup, for example, WSE vs GK
GK goes 3x storm (no upgrades) into fast intercepter, furious intervention + mantle.
what can the WSE possibly do against this build?

i can definitely see your point about special attacks being OP with GK, tho. tough...

WSE with wargear > 3x storms.

[Kvek]

Troll Spider Exarch.

[krakza]

Blessed Aegis feels like an obselete T1 wargear choice when you can grab an extra 100 health and Canticle of Absolution for the same price.

[Kvek]

Blessed Aegis feels like an obselete T1 wargear choice when you can grab an extra 100 health and Canticle of Absolution for the same price.

Health regen-Unending purge-in the next patch you can just give him great regen+20% damage resistance.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Blessed Aegis feels like an obselete T1 wargear choice when you can grab an extra 100 health and Canticle of Absolution for the same price.

Both are different wargears to different builds

- Blessed Aegis with a tanky build to increase BC survival and field presence.

- Mantle of Terra with a support/energy intense build, because Canticle of Absolution gives to your squads (including the BC) to almost spam abiities (Interceptors' Furious Intervention, for example) and the possibility to deny the use of abilities from your enemy's squads.

[Lag]

Can someone please explain to me what is the reasoning behind Storms having such fast nades? I have a problem with this for a while now and I just got pissed at a game because of it. It takes no skill to attack ground, they do a fucking ton of damage and are fast as hell when you need em to be (with Hero ability), not to mention that, due to everything previously said, they level up like crazy and become impossible to bleed, even with hard counters like Electric Armor.
Why is this okay? Ever other attack ground weapon travels slow enough to actually require some management and predicament when firing.

[winkel]

Today there was life in the GK forum - today was a good day.

@Lag
Projectile speed scales with proximity, meaning that the closer the squad is to the target, the faster the barrage will fly.

Now before I start giving you shit for calling IST op, I'd like to state that the IST squad is the only unit in the GK t1 roster that I personally consider balanced.
IST is our bread'n'butter for a multitude of reasons:
*Great cappers
*ACTUAL ranged firepower
*only melee deterrent we have in t1 - and I should add here that it's nowhere near as reliable as Shotgun Blast/Crippling Poison/Aiming? Wotz dat?

Now back to @Lag

It takes no skill to attack ground, they do a fucking ton of damage and are fast as hell when you need em to be (with Hero ability), not to mention that, due to everything previously said, they level up like crazy and become impossible to bleed, even with hard counters like Electric Armor.

Sorry Lag, I was originally going to respond with a "U WOT M8?", but I'm apparently escalating this slightly and asking: Are the 2 of us even playing the same game?

[Kvek]

tbh i agree with lag
Those nade launchers are cheap, counter melee (if ur pr0 enough)
counter setup teams, deal a lot of damage, anti garrison.

[Lag]

What are you talking about? I am not referring to their ability here, but to their normal attack which is supposed to be anti blob, and ends up being anti-everything due to the projectile speed which is, for some reason, faster than the Tic nade launcher projectile speed. This is the idea behind projectile weapons (like Plasma Devs, Tics, upgraded Sentinels): they do decent damage, are great at dealing with blobs and immobile targets and require skill to deal with moving targets (it has to have SOME setback). You increase the speed of the auto-attack projectiles and you have all the benefits of this class of units, and no cons - like the D-Cannon, a damn t3 unit (which is, on top of it, immobile while shooting).

If the projectile nade is considered to be fine, then please adjust the Sentinel projectile speed, as well as Stick Bombs speed to match this one, thanks.

[winkel]

What are you talking about? I am not referring to their ability here, but to their normal attack which is supposed to be anti blob, and ends up being anti-everything due to the projectile speed which is, for some reason, faster than the Tic nade launcher projectile speed.

Alrite, let's debunk this nice and quick:
*Both the auto-attack and the ability share the speed-scaling-on-proximity mechanic and there is no indication of you referring to one or the other, which I is why I assume both.
**It's the same for tics

That was easy, now for the re- HOLY SHIT

This is the idea behind projectile weapons (like Plasma Devs, Tics, upgraded Sentinels): they do decent damage, are great at dealing with blobs and immobile targets and require skill to deal with moving targets (it has to have SOME setback). You increase the speed of the auto-attack projectiles and you have all the benefits of this class of units, and no cons - like the D-Cannon, a damn t3 unit (which is, on top of it, immobile while shooting).

May I tickle your imagination with the idea that you might be suffering due to yourself main'ing IG and therefore dealing with having large squad sizes?
Believe me when I say that IST with nades will never hit a moving target with nades unless:
*It's ground targeted.
*The unit(s) charge down a slope
*The units(s) "snakes"
*It's point blank

Concluding,

If the projectile nade is considered to be fine, then please adjust the Sentinel projectile speed, as well as Stick Bombs speed to match this one, thanks.

I sincerely respect you Lag, but allow me to suggest rewriting/phrasing and try again, because I can't remain serious around this : )

[Lag]

Alrite, let's debunk this nice and quick:
*Both the auto-attack and the ability share the speed-scaling-on-proximity mechanic and there is no indication of you referring to one or the other, which I is why I assume both.
**It's the same for tics

That was easy, now for the re- HOLY SHIT

I mentioned attack/ground a number of times in my original comment.

May I tickle your imagination with the idea that you might be suffering due to yourself main'ing IG and therefore dealing with having large squad sizes?
Believe me when I say that IST with nades will never hit a moving target with nades unless:
*It's ground targeted.
*The unit(s) charge down a slope
*The units(s) "snakes"
*It's point blank

I was playing Ork when I became "inspired" to write this up. You are still ignoring what I write, and I am mainly talking about, due to the high projectile speed, Storms easily dealing with moving targets with "attack-ground".

Concluding,

I sincerely respect you Lag, but allow me to suggest rewriting/phrasing and try again, because I can't remain serious around this : )

I suggest starting to read what the person you are discussing with is writing.

[Kvek]

I see only one problem, everybody defends his main race. (most of the time)
pls give back splash to thunder hammer it wasn't OP

[winkel]

May I tickle your imagination with the idea that you might be suffering due to yourself main'ing IG and therefore dealing with having large squad sizes?
Believe me when I say that IST with nades will never hit a moving target with nades unless:
*It's ground targeted.
*The unit(s) charge down a slope
*The units(s) "snakes"
*It's point blank

I was playing Ork when I became "inspired" to write this up. You are still ignoring what I write, and I am mainly talking about, due to the high projectile speed, Storms easily dealing with moving targets with "attack-ground".

It takes no skill to attack ground, they do a fucking ton of damage and are fast as hell when you need em to be (with Hero ability), not to mention that, due to everything previously said, they level up like crazy and become impossible to bleed, even with hard counters like Electric Armor.

I have a feeling I'm being gravely underestimated here : )
The point you're trying to get across is that IST are being too effective against moving targets with their nade-launchers, due to the scaling projectile speed - assuming the controller is ground-targeting. - which I think could make for an interesting discussion, however ...
Sadly, you also go on to claim that ground-targeting takes no skill and that they become impossible to bleed, which in my book completely nullifies credibility : )

At the end of the day, I won't argue against nade-launcher IST being good, and I won't hold it against you that you haven't tried a race with only a single unit in t1 that isn't underperforming.

For now, would you mind confirming that you wholly believe that ground-targeting takes no skill ?

[Lag]

Compared to ground targeting with Sentinel, Tic Naders, Weirdboy, PDevs and Noise Blasters - yes.

[Dark Riku]

This:

@Lag

Now before I start giving you shit for calling IST op, ....
IST is our bread'n'butter for a multitude of reasons:
....
*only melee deterrent we have in t1 - and I should add here that it's nowhere near as reliable as Shotgun Blast/Crippling Poison/Aiming? Wotz dat?

And some of the other mechanic points addressed above already.