Grey Knights Topic

[Nuclear Arbitor]

people seem to think that ATs with hammers are good against melee squads. they are not. they're av and anti-ranged. don't use them against power melee squads.

[Ace of Swords]

Lol, while that IS a really funny picture, heaven forbid that I was honest and admitted I didn't know something Some people are just out there to be D-Bags I guess!

Please stop, i don't want to be offensive, but you just don't know what you are talking about.

[Lord of Lawls]

If you didn't want to be offensive then you would not have posted that picture. Either post why you think that purifiers are fine or not fine, or don't post at all.

[dance commander]

Either post why you think that purifiers are fine or not fine, or don't post at all.

I think he made a pretty elaborate post about it in the first page of the thread.

[Kvek]

Aaron. I don't play GK that much but i know purifiers. The Justicar's hammer has some "great" knockback. I'm not sure if strike squad melee upgrade gives them "huge knockback". I think you mean the Bro's hammer.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Purifiers aren't bad at all. Maybe a bit niche, and some of their job could be done by Intercepters with some buffs. And also they are overshined by the GK Dread.

But Purifiers, with some Brother Chaptain or GK Librarian buffs, are pretty fearsome.

[Raffa]

Well then, would you be so kind as to show me the proper usage of Purifiers. I always use them as dedicated melee fighters and not for their supportive/tanky role. I would be glad if I can observe one of your games, that would be great.

Back tomorrow catch me on steam then

Please stop, i don't want to be offensive, but you just don't know what you are talking about.

I actually find myself agreeing with a lot of what you say. except on banshees

It is true that I have not put 1500 hours plus into the Elite Mod like I HAVE in vanilla Retribution. So you are 99% wrong.

Sorry but you haven't. Not continuing this convo

[Indrid]

Brother Captain

Nemesis Force Sword:

Why does this have such low damage? Yes the buff is good but 33dps is measly. CL, FC, Inq, TM (in T2) etc can all get very nice 50 dps power weapons for 20 power, with good to great abilities.

Nemesis Force Staff:

Have you considered moving this thing to T1? Give it Bang-Bang Hammer damage and adjust price, the Ward buff would really help Interceptors in T1 and double SS builds.

Purgation:

Given their range, I think the Incinerators should suppress in 1.5s at most. The opponent should have to treat them like a short-range set-up in terms of counter IMO. At the moment you just run in a couple of squads and they're useless. They are almost completely outclassed by Noise Marines against melee squads because of the NM's awesome damage and Cacophony.

Interceptors:

Such a resource sink with all their upgrades. Raise the price of the Justicar slightly and give them the Nades with him for free.

Rhino:

I think it should be able to reinforce once the vehicle armour upgrade is purchased, with price adjusted if need be. I always assumed this would be the intended behaviour.

GK Dreadnought:

Really fun and stuff but I think a T3 Lascannon upgrade (100/40) would fill the role of a hard-hitting late ranged AV option. Since it is set to only have Maelstrom with the melee upgrade, I think it'll fit nicely.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Brother Captain

Nemesis Force Sword:

Why does this have such low damage? Yes the buff is good but 33dps is measly. CL, FC, Inq, TM (in T2) etc can all get very nice 50 dps power weapons for 20 power, with good to great abilities.

Because the buff. Heavy Armor in T1 + 25% damage taken reduction + 1.5 speed increase for 15 seconds (+6 range melee charge for the BC) would be very difficult to counter.

With this weapon, Blessed Aegis and The Unending Purge you have a in T1 a BC who can turn into the Tanky Brother Speedy Gonzales.

Nemesis Force Staff:

Have you considered moving this thing to T1? Give it Bang-Bang Hammer damage and adjust price, the Ward buff would really help Interceptors in T1 and double SS builds.

I will say no for 2 reasons:
1. For double SS (not bad in T1, but you are shouting to your enemy for a vehicle in T2, eats 40 pop with the Justicar) the BC have the Nemesis Force Sword which is a bit better IMHO
2. Because the Nemesis Force Staff is my favourite weapon in T2, and i'll buy it in almost every matchup. The combination of high power melee damage + a great ability, which sinergy well with almost any GK squad makes it an almost must buy for me.

Purgation:

Given their range, I think the Incinerators should suppress in 1.5s at most. The opponent should have to treat them like a short-range set-up in terms of counter IMO. At the moment you just run in a couple of squads and they're useless. They are almost completely outclassed by Noise Marines against melee squads because of the NM's awesome damage and Cacophony.

Agree. They should suppress earlier.

Interceptors:

Such a resource sink with all their upgrades. Raise the price of the Justicar slightly and give them the Nades with him for free.

Maybe a cost reduction of the grenades?

Rhino:

I think it should be able to reinforce once the vehicle armour upgrade is purchased, with price adjusted if need be. I always assumed this would be the intended behaviour.

The GK player could use his Rhino as a public transport, moving the wounded squad to the base (or simply retreat the squad), moving the Rhino to the base and then returning them to the combat when they are reinforced and healed.

In T3 the GK player can simply deploy a Land Raider Crusader as mobile base.

GK Dreadnought:

Really fun and stuff but I think a T3 Lascannon upgrade (100/40) would fill the role of a hard-hitting late ranged AV option. Since it is set to only have Maelstrom with the melee upgrade, I think it'll fit nicely.

If the Lascannon have long range (I assume yes) this upgrade should come with a HP decrease, for example 200.

[Indrid]

Because the buff. Heavy Armor in T1 + 25% damage taken reduction + 1.5 speed increase for 15 seconds (+6 range melee charge for the BC) would be very difficult to counter.

What do you mean "would" be very difficult to counter? All of that is already in the game. Make the BC more of a threat in T1 by himself. In T2 and T3 that 33dps is really pathetic, he won't always have an army around him to buff.

The GK player could use his Rhino as a public transport, moving the wounded squad to the base (or simply retreat the squad), moving the Rhino to the base and then returning them to the combat when they are reinforced and healed.

So like every other T2 transport, but you can't reinforce in the field.

In T3 the GK player can simply deploy a Land Raider Crusader as mobile base.

Getting a super unit is not "simple" and the LR is very slow so not really a mobile, front line support vehicle. Space Marines also have a Razorback and LRR so not sure what you mean by this.

If the Lascannon have long range (I assume yes) this upgrade should come with a HP decrease, for example 200.

I don't think it needs a HP reduction. T-Dread is 200 HP less already (iirc?) and that is in T2. You also have VC Carnifexes stomping around. The GK Dread would cost ~600/160 with the Lascannon with 1,300 HP, nothing outrageous I don't think especially since lascannons are useless against infantry.

[Dark Riku]

+1 to everything what Indrid said.

BC is the slowest hero of all with only speed 4.
For reference Cl has speed 4.5 + his heretic support.

BC get's taken down in retreat way to easily.
Is it posible to give him faster retreat speed than the other units?
Cuz that is what is killing him most of the time due to his low base speed.

The T1 sword doesn't do much, it should get a dmg buff.

Transport should be able to reinforce come t2.
It should be removed (or reinforcing very very slow, if that is possible)
when upgraded to a lascannon.

GK don't stand a chance in 1v1.

[Ace of Swords]

BC get's taken down in retreat way to easily.
Is it posible to give him faster retreat speed than the other units?
Cuz that is what is killing him most of the time due to his low base speed.

BC is extremely tanky to ranged fire and the only melee units that are a threat to him in t1 are banshees, he has alot of HP judge well when fight and when retreat.

also with his wargear, then one which increases his speed and HP regen under 50% of hp his HP regen becomes absurd already.

Getting a super unit is not "simple" and the LR is very slow so not really a mobile, front line support vehicle. Space Marines also have a Razorback and LRR so not sure what you mean by this.

The LRR is a mobile base that's true, but unlikely the LRC it's not a mobile rape machine that counters it's hard counters, long range HIGH damage and fast suppression, lascannons get easily raped by it.
Oh yeah, and 3500hp.

And i should mention that melee units have no chance of getting close to it unless they are assault terminators.

I don't think it needs a HP reduction. T-Dread is 200 HP less already (iirc?) and that is in T2. You also have VC Carnifexes stomping around. The GK Dread would cost ~600/160 with the Lascannon with 1,300 HP, nothing outrageous I don't think especially since lascannons are useless against infantry.

Tdred is vulnerable to melee, the GK dred as high melee damage by baseline and maelstorm which is an auto counter to melee units that lasts for a very long time, oh and you say that the lascannon is not effective vs infantry? tell that to the rhino that goes around sniping models with it's twinlinked lascannon.
And yes that 200 hp makes a huge difference.

So like every other T2 transport, but you can't reinforce in the field.

You are forgetting it's T1 and it's a constant threat to any powerfarm you have on the map.

What do you mean "would" be very difficult to counter? All of that is already in the game. Make the BC more of a threat in T1 by himself. In T2 and T3 that 33dps is really pathetic, he won't always have an army around him to buff.

currently the bc is a free counter to suppression teams, in T1 it provides and extremely good buff and it's true that it doesn't do that much damage but it's enough to be annoying, his melee damage aswell as his ranged accuracy, and it's basicly the best unit in the game to tie up ranged squads since it's almost impossible to force off at the start of the games.

[Indrid]

Tdred is vulnerable to melee, the GK dred as high melee damage by baseline and maelstorm which is an auto counter to melee units that lasts for a very long time, oh and you say that the lascannon is not effective vs infantry? tell that to the rhino that goes around sniping models with it's twinlinked lascannon.
And yes that 200 hp makes a huge difference.

They have the same melee damage with a ranged weapon (73 dps), and as I said Maelstrom is only going to be available with the melee upgrade in next build (unless something drastic has changed). 200 HP difference in a different tier.

You are forgetting it's T1 and it's a constant threat to any powerfarm you have on the map.

The reinforcing would be tied to the vehicle upgrade as I said, which is T2. I made no mention of it's T1 utility.

currently the bc is a free counter to suppression teams, in T1 it provides and extremely good buff and it's true that it doesn't do that much damage but it's enough to be annoying, his melee damage aswell as his ranged accuracy, and it's basicly the best unit in the game to tie up ranged squads since it's almost impossible to force off at the start of the games.

I basically don't agree with any of this.

[Ace of Swords]

They have the same melee damage with a ranged weapon (73 dps), and as I said Maelstrom is only going to be available with the melee upgrade in next build (unless something drastic has changed). 200 HP difference in a different tier.

Im sure it's melee damage is way higher than that, a gk dred easily beats in melee a melee sm dred.

The reinforcing would be tied to the vehicle upgrade as I said, which is T2. I made no mention of it's T1 utility.

You need to take in account the whole utility of the unit not only what you want.

I basically don't agree with any of this.

it's not a matter of agreeing, it's a fact.

[Indrid]

Im sure it's melee damage is way higher than that, a gk dred easily beats in melee a melee sm dred.

Check the Codex, on the very site you posted this on. I'm guessing a default GK Dread wins because it has a multi-melta getting shots before.

You need to take in account the whole utility of the unit not only what you want.

Uh, yeah. I did. I just didn't talk about something that was irrelevant to my point.

it's not a matter of agreeing, it's a fact.

Seriously? The BC is the best unit in the game at tieing up ranged squads?!

I dunno what you're smoking, almost any T1 melee squad puts huge pressure on a Lv1 BC. No KTW like the CL and so slow retreating as has been said. No threat of HT's Rending Talons and no WB Stomp. Even the FC does way better with Battlecry.

[dance commander]

Check the Codex, on the very site you posted this on. I'm guessing a default GK Dread wins because it has a multi-melta getting shots before.

Unless the damage was brought on par with other dreads, the GK dread does more damage than standard walkers, I distinctly remember trying the ven dread against a gk dread with claw upgrade, and the gk dread won, even though the ven dread does 113 dps.

Uh, yeah. I did. I just didn't talk about something that was irrelevant to my point.

Then what advantage would a razorback have over it for being a t2 exclusive with no possibility of hard av upgrade?

Seriously? The BC is the best unit in the game at tieing up ranged squads?!

I dunno what you're smoking, almost any T1 melee squad puts huge pressure on a Lv1 BC. No KTW like the CL and so slow retreating as has been said. No threat of HT's Rending Talons and no WB Stomp. Even the FC does way better with Battlecry.

You were talking about it being a threat, you compared it to the CL, how is his damage any worse than the CL in T1? The only difference is that the BC is more vulnerable to melee squads (meh, even this is debatable, since the 360 special attack with it's huge knockback will give more than enough time to shoot down those pesky tics, shees or sluggas, disregarding the damage it does alone) and it has a fantastic buff that reduces damage and increases charge range, you can straight up run in front of a set up team from max range with his buff on while still retaining 30-40% health, try it out, also how is his retreat speed lower than the CL? Or Hive Tyrant for that matter?

[Nurland]

CL at least has 0,5 speed advantage compared to BC, not sure about HT but I'd think it has the same speed as CL.

[Indrid]

Unless the damage was brought on par with other dreads, the GK dread does more damage than standard walkers, I distinctly remember trying the ven dread against a gk dread with claw upgrade, and the gk dread won, even though the ven dread does 113 dps.

Well I'm just going by the codex, I haven't labbed it. Beating a 1750 hp Ven Dread seems a bit nuts.

Then what advantage would a razorback have over it for being a t2 exclusive with no possibility of hard av upgrade?

It can get extra armour and can be combined with snipers/very versatile Tacs etc for lots of shenanigans with that reinforce. Rhino seems to basically just be for carting Purgs around and dissuading your opponent from getting a walker maybe if you get Las. You can do some nice T1 plays with it alongside ST and Purgs and I'm not saying it's a bad unit but I find the no-reinforce puzzling. It could reinforce with a lascannon? So what? Still as soft as the other transports and it's not like lascannons are anti-everything.

You were talking about it being a threat, you compared it to the CL, how is his damage any worse than the CL in T1? The only difference is that the BC is more vulnerable to melee squads (meh, even this is debatable, since the 360 special attack with it's huge knockback will give more than enough time to shoot down those pesky tics, shees or sluggas, disregarding the damage it does alone) and it has a fantastic buff that reduces damage and increases charge range, you can straight up run in front of a set up team from max range with his buff on while still retaining 30-40% health, try it out, also how is his retreat speed lower than the CL? Or Hive Tyrant for that matter?

I was referring to the comment that he's almost "impossible" to force off "at the start of games". I assumed that meant first engagements.

you can straight up run in front of a set up team from max range with his buff on while still retaining 30-40% health, try it out,

Yes this is one good thing he can do in T1, but so can teleporting comms with far less risk or even lucky Warlocks with a leap. When he gets there he is hitting like a grandma despite maybe having a 100/20 weapon.

[dance commander]

CL at least has 0,5 speed advantage compared to BC, not sure about HT but I'd think it has the same speed as CL.

That has been already stated in the thread, we're talking about retreat speed here, wanting to buff the initial retreat speed on the BC.

BC, CL and HT have all incredibly slow starting retreat speed, I dare say the HT being the most vulnerable, and with good reason, they are tanky melee heroes and should be retreated accordingly, also the health regen wargear makes killing the BC in retreat a mission, buffing his retreat speed would be crazy.

[tangier]

Then what advantage would a razorback have over it for being a t2 exclusive with no possibility of hard av upgrade?

Why does the razorback need to be on the same level as the rhino? Keep in mind that the razorback is there to support all of the things that Space Marines have that Grey Knights do not.

Also, I'm not seeing how the Brother Captain is a better ranged counter than say the WSE or some of the other commanders. Simply focus firing the BC while he's running into the suppression team seems to force him off most of the time.

[Ar-Aamon]

I don't know but it seems the GK Termis and Paladins lose their melee charge when equipped with the psycanon. Is this intended? And both have only 60 melee skill which mean they get special attacked when they fight other Lightning Claw Termis. Yes I know mind blade can help in this situation but generally I think they should have 70 melee skill too.

[Kvek]

I don't know but it seems the GK Termis and Paladins lose their melee charge when equipped with the psycanon. Is this intended? And both have only 60 melee skill which mean they get special attacked when they fight other Lightning Claw Termis. Yes I know mind blade can help in this situation but generally I think they should have 70 melee skill too.

Codex (http://www.dawnofwar.info/index.php?page=elite/paladins)
says that they have 60 melee skill so it should be intended

[Lulgrim]

Well that just shows what stats they have right now, I fail to see how it points whether the values are intended or an oversight... Frankly, I don't remember us speccing GK nator melee skill, it's probably 60 because the units were built on SM non-assault nators.

[Ar-Aamon]

Ok thx for the information.

I have tested it. Paladins and Termis have a melee charge with the psycanon. But overall the melee charge is a bit buggy. Sometimes they charge and sometimes they don't...
Strike Squad with Nemesis upgrade and the Interceptors don't charge at all (as it seems). I would welcome a change in this matter at least for the Strike Squad with the Nemesis upgrade.

[PanKiller]

And i wanna pc to have atleast a little melee dmg( wtf 6 , techmarine 20) because he has melee charge it does shit if he has no dmg.

[Kvek]

And i wanna pc to have atleast a little melee dmg( wtf 6 , techmarine 20) because he has melee charge it does shit if he has no dmg.

no dmg ? you use your ranged commander IN melee just beacause the damage ?... you use him to tie up stuff

[dance commander]

And i wanna pc to have atleast a little melee dmg( wtf 6 , techmarine 20) because he has melee charge it does shit if he has no dmg.

no dmg ? you use your ranged commander IN melee just beacause the damage ?... you use him to tie up stuff

Is that so? So it's not a problem if we bring the damage up to par is that right? Since it's no big deal.

[Kvek]

If he wants melee damage go for the sword....

[dance commander]

If he wants melee damage go for the sword....

Nah, you said you use commanders just to tie stuff up in melee, I suggest we reduce the melee damage of all the other ranged commanders since that is the case.

It's no big deal right? Who goes in melee with their commander for the damage?

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

There are some situations where you want to force melee with your ranged commander simply to reduce the other squad effectiveness: HWT, squads with AV to protect your vehicles....