Grey Knights Topic

[Caeltos]

Post Grey Knights performance here

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

I would start this thread with a personal opinion about Purifiers.

The Purifier Squad is a 500/75 energy squad with 1500 hp and a ability, usable only if you buy the Justicar (100/25). The ability for itself is good against stationary squads (HWT, Havocs, Devastators) One problem is eats the mana bar. The ability costs 100 mana, and the mana bar have a maximun of 100 in level 1. Any ability which drains energy, and the Purifiers can't use the ability.

But that isn't the main problem IMHO.

With the inclusion of Nemesis Force Upgrade in Interceptors and the Strike Squad, they almost overlap their role.

Strike Squad do 23 melee dps (30 with Nemesis Focus)
Interceptors do 30 melee dps (34.5 with Nemesis Focus) 1760 hp with Justicar + Nemesis focus
Purifiers do 34.62 power melee dps. 2050 hp with Justicar.

Purifiers do more damage against HI and SHI infantry, and with his bigger amount of HP should tank more damage. Not mention his Justicar's 45 melee_heavy daemon hammer. In the paper, they are a great unit.

The problem is a Strike Squad + Justicar + Purification on Interceptors combo could do almost the same anti-infantry role.

How? They do less damage against HI and SHI, and have less health. How is supposed they do the same role?

With the disruption. With the Justicar, the Interceptor squad could knockback infantry enemy. In the time they stand up and return to engage melee the enemy squad could recibe 4 o even more free hits without doing any damage to Interceptor Squad. With the Strike Squad Purification they could do another jump, disrupt they again and doing free hits without receive damage. And of course, not mention if you adds the Canticle of Absolution ability. Not mention they are better retreat killers thanks of this instant teleport, which helps to increase the possibility to kill models.

This is something that the Purifiers couldn't do. The only thing Purifiers could do better than Interceptors is his AV - role. But, again, the Interceptors could buy the Grenade improve and snare they. Even without having in mind this, Purifiers are only soft-av, and need support from another AV source or additional buffs, like the Warden ability from the BC Staff. For that role, its better to buy the GK Dread for 100 less req and 20 more energy.

Opinions?

[Nuclear Arbitor]

GK are poorly designed. they don't fit well in dow2, although i understand why they were added, but they just have to small a rooster. because of that i don't think they can be made successful in their current form.

i think that in order to make them work they would need to be folded into witch hunters as one or two t2/t3 units. that would give them viable av without going to stupid lengths, as well as cheap units, and would keep them fluffy. at this point i think GK will either be op or up but however good they are they will be better in team games where their primary weaknesses, vehicles (especially tanks), and map control are less important.

and before i get a rage post in response because i wasn't clear enough: i think that GK are as well designed as can be given the circumstances.

[Classy David]

Grey Knights, in the current meta, are lacking (I do understand they are still somewhat underworks but here are some ideas that could help them become a viable faction)

I will post different posts concerning different area's (units, BC, AV, etc.)

GK AV

I can understand GK would have weak AV but right now, their AV is extremely weak, so much that the GK only hard AV is the Melta Dread.
The only way GK can handle Walkers and the like is by buying another walker, but with GK being, maybe, the most power heavy race in T2, this can severely cripple them in economy.

The biggest offense is GK only snare is a Krak grenade, that you have to throw, which has very similar effects to haywire grenade of the Eldar expect they get to throw theirs and most walkers or vehicles can simply move out of the way. I suggest making the krak grenade allowed to be throw like a haywire nade.

Psy-cannons are pretty good, being a good range weapon effective against all targets, but can be tied up easily and the biggest problem must be stationary to fire resulting in the GK inability to chase down vehicles running away. (Whilst overall psycannons are still good as a range weapon but I do suggest that Strike Squad be able to switch between their flamer and psy cannon)

Purifiers, with the longest charge range, with heavy melee Justicar is helpful in terms of being able to pitch in taking down vehicles. They are a good soft AV counter. BUT for 100 req less and 20 power you can get a GK dread. Right now purifiers are just very( or too) expensive.

GK Librarian (I know he ain't got heavy melee!) does help somewhat with GK with using purge and Shrouding on a AV unit (Purgation or Purifiers come to mind) to help.

GK Rhino, the las cannon right now does decent damage and does pitch in but does suffer for (some odd reason) keeps targeting infantry. Not a bad AV option doing around 154 dms. But the problem is the AV follow up from the GK needing to help support the Las Rhino to take out enemy vehicles. (Its does do a decent number on infantry, since it can somewhat hit infantry oddly ) Or could rhino have a snare effect similar to the Zoanthrope (a one shot snare) which would be a great idea, now that I think about......

But when it comes down to it, GK simply lack the pressure to put on vehicles and to follow up on the attack, with no AV that move and fire besides the Las Rhino, they struggle alot on following up a attack on a vehicle.

Suggestions and ideas are welcomed.

[Nurland]

Mmm. All other passively snaring ranged units are kinda slow and for a reason. I don't think giving snare to Rhino would be a good solution for the problem.

[Kvek]

Purgation (las) upgrade ? they could be like a havoc or something . start with suppression and can choose between autocannon/las.

[Raffa]

The biggest offense is GK only snare is a Krak grenade, that you have to throw, which has very similar effects to haywire grenade of the Eldar expect they get to throw theirs and most walkers or vehicles can simply move out of the way. I suggest making the krak grenade allowed to be throw like a haywire nade.

Agreed

Right now purifiers are just very( or too) expensive.

You're underplaying their versatility

GK Rhino, the las cannon right now does decent damage and does pitch in but does suffer for (some odd reason) keeps targeting infantry.

There's a reason for this, s/t to do with damage..but yeh plz fix

Purgation (las) upgrade ?

Gonna need more convincing than that mate

[Kvek]

Well i don't play GK often. The las was just an idea i don't know how it could work with the army etc. And yeah purifiers are maybe expensive but give them libby+ward and they are one of the best melee squads and for the cost it's great considering that libby/ward can be used on all ally infantry units

[Ace of Swords]

I belive relic put a line with Space Marines on the cost/efficiency of units, there was a reason while tacts went from 500 req to 450, GKs at the moment are too expensive and too durable, they almost never bleed EVER, except for the purgation squad and the stormtroopers, at the same time they are so expensive that to get a unit out it takes a while and in that time your opponent can get more units or just gain alot of map control, increasing his economical advantage, making the gap between him and the gk player even bigger and that's why they are bad in 1v1, but bordeline op in 2v2 and 3v3 where they have all the resources they want.

Now GKs also have absurdely strong units:
-T1 rhino with 900HP and SHI (really?) a propely microed rhino in T1 simply cannot be destroyed and will be harassing your power whenever it has the chance with a purgation squad.

-Purifiers, just... soo much healt and damage, plus an extremely good ability against blobs, aswell extremely good to keep enemy units out of position, this squad will not lose models, each one has so much healt that even with the squad on 1/3 of healt they will get away with a full squad.

-GK dred, a walker that costs just 50 req more than a dred, starts with a melta, an anti blob/melee ability and very high melee damage, it beats any other walker by a good margin and can be upgraded to deal with everything in the game.

-GK terminators, they do cost quite alot, but they have no red cost and start off with a good ranged damage and both are extremely good in melee, if that wasn't enough they can equip even better ranged weapons while fully keeping their ability to melee,aswell their reinforce cost is the most cheap of all terminators.

-LRC, high dps, 3500 hp (lol) long range suppression, no rear armor (like the other land raiders but with the HP of the baneblade) you cannot retreat to it but it provides healt AND energy regen aswell as a reinforcement point, can be dropped anywhere on the map, build time 10 seconds, same cost of all the other LRs, i think it speaks for itself why this is too good.

Now im not saying GKs are uncounterable, they can be beaten especially in 1v1 for reasons i have explained at the start and they also have their weakness, which im not talking about because they are already beign discussed in this thread, What i think they need is a completely overhaul to make them more in line with DoW2 economy if they want to be viable in 1v1 and too strong in other game modes, aswell as if we are to eliminate their weakness to vehicles they are in need of nerfs in the anti infantry department.

[Classy David]

Agreed, GK seem to focused more towards team games were they can get the required resources to be but in 1v1, its start to show the GK weakness in economy and units.

With such expensive units (besides Storms) and model reinforce GK suffer in being extremely outnumbered (I get the elite of the elite ) One glaring issue is early melee rushes and the GK's inability to deal with effectively.

With Purgation Squads being so unreliable in suppressing, Storm nades have become the preferred melee counter.

Yes I know if you get storms w/t nades and Purgation you have a good chance to suppress something (when/if they get knocked back) but having to buy another unit to make another unit effective in doing a job that their suppose to do is a bit questionable.

I do suggest that Strike Squad could snare and energy replenishment in T1, this would help greatly in controlling but then again the Snare cooldown is like 45 - 60 seconds long? I suggest a lower cool down.

Also, GK Dread does the same melee damage with a range weapon and without as the other dreads (Concerning CSM and SM Dread, respectively) its just comes with a good snaring ability. And comes with the highest hp out of all the dreads, so thats a plus.

The LRC, whilst seeming pretty great, is actually somewhat lacking simply because the lack of AV for GK meaning every other race can get hard AV that are alot more better then the AV options for GK. Resulting in the GK LRC hp being eaten away extremely fast. Also, with the purchase of the LRC the GK give up Paladins (the other Heavy AV option beside GK Melta/Melee Dread) of course if you opponent did go all infantry for some it is really powerful.

[Raffa]

2 things:

yes the gk krak grenade should be point-click-hit like the haywire grenade. The only other av grenade in the game that is thrown like a normal grenade is the orbs of the omnissiah. It's harder to hit with the orb deliberately as a drawback to the fact it utterly rapes vehicles. Krak grenades do not have the same rape factor as orbs do, so they should logically be brought into line with the other av grenades.

It's unrealistic to expect stormtrooper grenade barrage to perform as gk's main melee counter in t1 when compared with other races' shotguns, hwts, termagants, etc

Purgations should suppress a little more reliably, given their short range.

GK dread is very strong. Worth more than +50 req on a chaos/sm dread. Not sure about weakening it tho, unless the Dreadknight rumours are true...

[PanKiller]

The interesting things , since flame upgrade isnt bad when can we expect grenade launcher grey knight dred to be implemented?

[winkel]

Greetings, salutations and all that good stuff : )

Glad, but admittedly a bit surprised to see this thread revived, though that was apparently only a matter of time. I’d like to take the opportunity to briefly jump out of my hidey-hole and give you my 2 cents/wall of text that contains most of the bugbears I’ve written down the past months.
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The following wall of text contains immense quantities of heresy, and having everything I mention added would make GK amazingly OP, where they would basically shit on you from all angles with CC.

That said, all of these proposals are intended to either give GK options to combat something they struggle against, ease the use of certain units, and I’d be surprised if I didn’t sneak some rule-of-cool nonsense in here.

Do also keep in mind that I’ve got a personal preference for micro’ing abilities and the styles of play that revolve around them - which should be evident by the proposals.

Furthermore, I don’t give a single shit about lore. I know my fluff, but the only rules I follow here is the ones laid down by Caeltos: No snares and no setup.

My only claim to credibility is that I play GK excessively and being the only GK main for several months.

Now that I’ve washed my hands before my great heresy, let’s begin:
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GK problems:

Overall, this is a new race balanced from scratch, so of course it’s going to remain slightly bare-bones for awhile – the thing that will ultimately help GK is options

Defending against melee-heavy builds, due to a lack of reliable CC.

Destroying fast vehicles, due to a lack of reliable vehicle CC.

Melee builds being unviable in multiple matchups (eldar, nids & chaos).

Melee builds having little to no gen bash potential.

Inability to dump mana on abilities due to long cooldowns is silly with a race with great mana drain/transfer potential.

Expensive units with little option for being purchased bite-sized in t2/t3 causes GK to play out in a reactionary fashion where you can’t risk bringing certain units into play before you’ve seen your opponent’s first pick in the particular tier, unless you want to be irreversibly raped.

No on-the-field reinforcement before t3 is a bummer. It makes sustaining map presence with an infantry force difficult in 1v1 and coupled with our lack setup it also causes a hard time holding position in 2v2 and 3v3.

Hotkeys:

This needs to be fixed, Mind Blades and Dark Excommunication both being tied to the F2 button needs to not be a thing.

There are actually quite a few odd things going on with GK keybindings, but I would for this post merely suggest enabling reconfiguration of GK keybindings in the _keydefaults if possible.

Globals:

Aside from the troubles with hotkeys, Mind Blades and Dark Excommunication are both very solid and the latter can be hilariously cheesy.

Hellfury Strike is as underwhelming as it has always been, now with the added twist of being in the hands of a hero/race combination with nothing to pin targets in place, devaluating the global further. I don’t like pointing out problems without a supplement solution, but I genuinely don’t know what can be done here.

I will touch on the Land Raider Thunderhawk Drop in the LRC’s own section, but I would be amiss if I didn’t take the space to appreciate the visuals of this drop – I’ve seen this thing being dropped hundreds of times, and I still get the chills. Thanks for using the best part of Destroyer : )

I don’t know whether Orbital Bombardment was intended as a temporary or permanent global for GK, but I do know that discussing the effectiveness of the individual nukes is a wasp’s nest that I’d rather avoid.
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Format is simple: Problem1 Problem2 followed by Solution1 Solution 2.

Brother-Captain:

Is the only hero in the “Big Scary” class who can’t deter melee and will therefore be eaten alive with little need for kiting – the flaw in his design apparently being that he has a lot of options to get mana, but got very few ways to burn it again

Has problems leveling up in the early game

Nemesis Vortex is a bitch to babysit during combat

Iron Halo default ability and We Are the Hammer tied to sword upgrade

Wrist-mounted incinerator

Nemesis Vortex detonating at will (scaling in damage vs. time would be cool if tech existed)
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Inquisitorial Storm Troopers:

While the squad is probably the most solid choice a GK player has, the sergeant is a bloody idiot however, running into melee, tying them up and getting them killed due to him sharing the damage

Recon Kit is useless unless you want back-cap(s)

Make sergeant killable, but increase his hit points

Add grenade to sergeant upgrade, without speed – add speed to Recon Kit

Strike Squad:

This squad has a lot of the melee deterrents that GK would like to have to deal with melee builds, but the upgrades are not available in t1.

Strike Squad doesn’t scale very well

The strength of the Strike Squad lies in how effectively they transition between melee and ranged combat, the weapon upgrades’ stationary nature counteracts this however. A clearer purpose with getting and switching weapon upgrades beside “needing X damage type” could eliviate this and maybe solve some of GK’s other issues.

Abilities tied to Nemesis Focus upgrade as a t1 upgrade, while the Justicar gives cooldown reduction and melee skill

2 suggestions: "Vanguard upgrade" which makes the Justicar permanent and gives the squad nemesis (power) weapons or "Sternguard upgrade" that also makes the Justicar permanent, but provides Psyflame & Psybolt Ammunition

Incinerator grants Aiming? Wotz Dat?

Purgation Squad:

A lot of things can be said about the squad, but it is still bad at suppression

Incinerator gets a higher courage damage or Aiming? Wotz Dat? (losing Clear Vision)

Interceptor Squad:

The Interceptor Squad doesn’t disrupt in t1 where GK has trouble dealing with melee squads

The Krak Grenade is unfit for purpose unless you’re fighting mega tanks. It’s ground targeted, got a small radius and a generous fuse – not what I’d call reliable AV

Interceptor Squad doesn’t scale very well

The Incinerator is an extremely odd weapon for a pseudo warp-spider/assault squad and lacks purpose

Furious Intervention is tied to Nemesis Focus upgrade as a t1 upgrade and Justicar is now coupled with the damage and health upgrade

Krak Grenade getting a buff (AoE, snare length, shorter fuse) or replaced with Melta Bomb

"Vanguard upgrade" which makes the Justicar permanent and gives the squad nemesis (power) weapons or "Sternguard upgrade" that also makes the Justicar permanent, but provides Psyflame & Psybolt Ammunition

Incinerator grants Aiming? Wotz Dat?

Rhino:

GK don’t have any on-the-field reinforcement before they’ve spent 800/200/250 in t3, which hurts the viability of infantry based builds – furthermore, the thing is riddled with bugs, which can easily result in GG

Combined heavy bolter and armor upgrade with reinforcement that transforms the vehicle into a vanilla SM Razorback for ~100/35 - Still upgradable with lascannon
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Purifiers:

Psychic Field is worthless when dealing with vehicles, so why is it tied to the heavy_melee upgrade?

Psychic Field removed and replaced by mini-stun on melee hit by Justicar (Caeltos said no snares, never said anything about mini-stuns)

Dreadnought:

The plasma cannon upgrade will require for you to constantly target ground – this is due to the attack fizzling when a target moves even slightly away from the dreadnought during animation

There is still one more slot for an upgrade to the dreadnought, one which could be used to deal with the t3 tanks

Plasma cannon adopts Wierdboy behavior

Lascannon upgrade in t3 (basically making it a VC Carnifex)

Terminator Librarian:

This motherfucker needs a ranged upgrade to be effective in situations where you’ve got a ranged/mixed build and facing melee builds

Any reason why Might of Titan only benefits melee, reducing potential synergy with ranged squads?

Nemesis Warding Staff in t2

MoT increasing ranged damage and not just melee
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Terminators

These guys are awesome, 11/10 want them in my t2

Paladins

Expensive as fuck and ironically currently our best shot at pressuring fast vehicles

Allow for the unit to be purchased bite-sized where upgrades will eventually turn it into its current form – having to purchase things like health and teleport beacon could work

Land Raider Crusader:

Some builds ago the LRC got a double whammy removing the Frag Assault and increasing the drop time significantly – this dealt with long range suppression + Frag Assault, which was blatantly OP – could we now take a swing at the current outstanding issue, being that you still can’t retreat to the LRC though it’s obviously that’s what it’s built for?

With the increased drop time, you will always face the choice of either hiding your drop somewhere to the side or dropping it directly on the battlefield (resulting in every AV threat being locked onto your LRC) – I don’t know about you guys, but I don’t really think this fits the awesome nature of the drop

Retreat point enabled

Drop time halved

(Dreadknight)

I heard Mr. Caeltos talking about introducing it as a TB fex, which I applaud pretty hard – I really don’t give a toss about dreadknights, but there’s potential here for alternate versions of both the BS fex (heavy incinerator) and VC fex (heavy psycannon), which given the circumstances is GLORIOUS.

(Vindicare Assassin)

I know, this fella is out of the blue, but put down the pitchforks and let’s talk about this like adult children. I’ve already gone through the trouble of telling you about the issues, now I present the ultimate solution – like in TT, this dude will pop out of nowhere and pop tanks, magically solving problems by being awesome <3
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With all of this said, I like playing GK, I’m always having a blast driving around in my bangbus with my mahreens and fucking over your gens : )

But you know, it gets sorta boring being forced into certain “safe” builds against certain races, which basically boils down to your ratio of IST, SS and Purgation - save for the eventual mind game (an easy thing to pull off when you’ve gone with variances of the same build 4 rounds in a row).

I’m pretty certain I’m on my 6th or 7th page now, so lemme skip the tl;dr and mention what hasn’t been addressed here: Cost/effectiveness, unit costs/economy, stats and overall impression of individual units - all subjects that I don’t know the criteria to critique them by (but like with everything else in the post, ask me something or call BS on my shenanigans and you’ll get an answer).

This is my thoughts on GK problems in the current meta : )

[Ar-Aamon]

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GK problems:

Defending against melee-heavy builds, due to a lack of reliable CC.

Destroying fast vehicles, due to a lack of reliable vehicle CC.

Melee builds being unviable in multiple matchups (eldar, nids & chaos).

Inability to dump mana on abilities due to long cooldowns is silly with a race with great mana drain/transfer potential.

I would add range-blobs since GK have no artillery. (Dreadnought doesn't count for me because the plasma canon has limited range compared to other artillery units.)

Brother-Captain:
Iron Halo default ability and We Are the Hammer tied to sword upgrade

Nemesis Vortex detonating at will (scaling in damage vs. time would be cool if tech existed)

The Brother-Captain is tanky enough, he doesn't need the Iron Halo default ability. And loosing "We are the hammer" would be a very bad deal (No support). The suggestion for the Nemesis Vortex is fine though.

Strike Squad:

Abilities tied to Nemesis Focus upgrade as a t1 upgrade, while the Justicar gives cooldown reduction and melee skill

2 suggestions: "Vanguard upgrade" which makes the Justicar permanent and gives the squad nemesis (power) weapons or "Sternguard upgrade" that also makes the Justicar permanent, but provides Psyflame & Psybolt Ammunition

Incinerator grants Aiming? Wotz Dat?

Please no power weapons for the Strike Squad. If you want power weapons go for the Purifiers. The idea about the Incinerator sounds interesting.

Interceptor Squad:

The Interceptor Squad doesn’t disrupt in t1 where GK has trouble dealing with melee squads

The Krak Grenade is unfit for purpose unless you’re fighting mega tanks. It’s ground targeted, got a small radius and a generous fuse – not what I’d call reliable AV

Interceptor Squad doesn’t scale very well

The Incinerator is an extremely odd weapon for a pseudo warp-spider/assault squad and lacks purpose

Furious Intervention is tied to Nemesis Focus upgrade as a t1 upgrade and Justicar is now coupled with the damage and health upgrade

Krak Grenade getting a buff (AoE, snare length, shorter fuse) or replaced with Melta Bomb

"Vanguard upgrade" which makes the Justicar permanent and gives the squad nemesis (power) weapons or "Sternguard upgrade" that also makes the Justicar permanent, but provides Psyflame & Psybolt Ammunition

Incinerator grants Aiming? Wotz Dat?

Well spoken. But same here. I see no need for the "Vanguard upgrade".

Purifiers:

Psychic Field is worthless when dealing with vehicles, so why is it tied to the heavy_melee upgrade?

Psychic Field removed and replaced by mini-stun on melee hit by Justicar (Caeltos said no snares, never said anything about mini-stuns)

These guys are fine. The only change I would suggest for them is a higher melee skill to counter other melee units (with special attacks).

Dreadnought:

The plasma cannon upgrade will require for you to constantly target ground – this is due to the attack fizzling when a target moves even slightly away from the dreadnought during animation

There is still one more slot for an upgrade to the dreadnought, one which could be used to deal with the t3 tanks

Plasma cannon adopts Wierdboy behavior

Lascannon upgrade in t3 (basically making it a VC Carnifex)

Sounds great to me, especially the part about the Plasma cannon.

Terminators

These guys are awesome, 11/10 want them in my t2

U mad? No deal, the belong in T3!

Paladins

Expensive as fuck and ironically currently our best shot at pressuring fast vehicles

Allow for the unit to be purchased bite-sized where upgrades will eventually turn it into its current form – having to purchase things like health and teleport beacon could work

Paladins aren't worth the price. They are really expensive as fuck (Superunit class). And what you get is a slow unit that is easily to shoot down. Paladins are more than niche and currently in almost every matchup a bad decision to get them on field.

Land Raider Crusader:

Some builds ago the LRC got a double whammy removing the Frag Assault and increasing the drop time significantly – this dealt with long range suppression + Frag Assault, which was blatantly OP – could we now take a swing at the current outstanding issue, being that you still can’t retreat to the LRC though it’s obviously that’s what it’s built for?

With the increased drop time, you will always face the choice of either hiding your drop somewhere to the side or dropping it directly on the battlefield (resulting in every AV threat being locked onto your LRC) – I don’t know about you guys, but I don’t really think this fits the awesome nature of the drop

Retreat point enabled

Drop time halved

Definitely not. The LRC is outstanding good. No further buffs needed.

[Nurland]

Well I wouldn't call Paladins a bad unit... They are not cheap but they are practically assault terminators with higher dps, passive buff aura, ranged attack and ranged weapon upgrades. But the LRC or termies are probably the more tempting first T3 purchases.

And termies in t2? Wut? Probably just kidding. Right Winkel?

[Kvek]

Well I wouldn't call Paladins a bad unit... They are not cheap but they are practically assault terminators with higher dps, passive buff aura, ranged attack and ranged weapon upgrades. But the LRC or termies are probably the more tempting first T3 purchases.

And termies in t2? Wut? Probably just kidding. Right Winkel?

Not sure about this. I don't think if i remember but i played some GK and the reinforce for paladins was 33power.
Well maybe i just imagine things

[Nurland]

They probably are 33 power to reinforce... At least their price is 700/200 iirc and reinforce cost is usually half the purchase cost.

[Lulgrim]

Termies and Seer Council are the only exception IIRC.

[winkel]

@Ar-Aamon
Don't go down on my LRC pointer (it was the only place where I could sneak some rule-of-cool in) - also, I'd be genuinely happy if you'd make an argument against GK having marks or stern/vanguard : )

@Nurland
I'm kidding pretty hard d:

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The point of the post was to showcase the problems I've encountered and offering a vast amount of ways to fix them in places where that shit would make sense : )

Could've gone a lot more in depth on almost every subject, but my hope is that my spread-shot will inspire a few ideas people can rally with - a conversation starter numbering about 7 pages

[Lord of Lawls]

I liked your suggestions Winkel. I don't get a chance to play as much as I'd like, but when I do, I play Grey Knights. So I'm probably just super biased Would be nice to actually be able to use Paladins in more than 1/10 games.

I would like to comment on Purifiers. Also, I'm coming from more of a 2v2 and 3v3 perspective.

They are hands down my favorite GK unit. I have tried to use them in every way that I could think of, with every support ability that I've found the Grey Knights had to offer from Ward, Purge, Canticle, Vortex (to slow inf. down), SS (w/e the slow ability is called), Might of w/e it's called from Librarian, Brother Captain's Power Sword (which, though I realize that it's specifically bought for the support ability, my god does it not scale very well out of tier 1), transport, etc.. I've even tried double Purifers (works about as well as you'd think). Honestly, they just seem pretty lackluster.

One of my huge problems with them is that my Justicar ALWAYS DIES. When they finally close that cap to get into melee, many times they've already been shot to shit, and the Justicar ends up dropping first sooooo often. Which then makes them pretty ineffective, specially since by the time you roll a squad like that out, it's at least mid tier 2. Maybe it's just my incredible bad luck, maybe it's that I'm doing something wrong, but as far as I'm concerned, Purifiers end up costing much, much more than just 600ish/100 power. The squad is much, much less effective (like most squads I suppose) without that Justicar's bitchin' Daemon Hammer. The constant drain of 100 req and 25 power just wrecks my economy.

My suggestion would just be to either make him a permanent part of the squad (something like the Sternguard/Vanguard), or simply lower the rest of the squads health by a certain amount and give it to the Purifier Justicar. This would give your melee charging investment a little bit more durability, but also allow him to still be killed and cause bleed. Making him die last would be a bad idea, but he's the Purifier Squad Leader man, he's supposed to be a badass. ASM sergeants cost the same but can be preserved very well due to their jump and disruption. You don't rely on their melee damage to be useful. TSM squads shouldn't be in melee unless they are throwing hooks at shootahs, guardians, etcs, so they generally can be retreated before you have sergeant losses. Plus they can get Sternguard and Vanguard which make the Sergeants permanent. I use them as an example because they are around equal durability and cost.

My other problem with them is their actual melee prowess. Even when you get them into melee, they can still get wrecked. Especially when (not if haha), that Justicar goes down. For an "Elite Tier 2 Melee Squad" they aren't exactly living up to their name. Any other melee squad with power weapons do work on them. They're purifiers, so they're supposed to be badass, AND they cost enough to warrant that. My suggestion would be to raise their melee skill (they ARE an "elite melee squad" right?). Makes sense on both a balance and fluff level. Would help them a lot in combat without raising damage or anything. Specially since they come out so late. It's likely that tier one squads have leveled up by then as well. Not sure what the Justicar's melee skill is, but even if it is higher, the squad can't be reliant on his hammer's specials alone. Especially with the aforementioned problem. It makes more sense to just get interceptors. They can TP, disrupt, and they have almost the same amount of health.

Just some thoughts on Purifiers. There are other things with Grey Knights that could be addressed as well, but I'd like this squad to get fixed the most!

[Nuclear Arbitor]

what is the justicar's position in the squad; is it the front by any chance?

[Raffa]

One of my huge problems with them is that my Justicar ALWAYS DIES

Maybe it's just my incredible bad luck

ASM sergeants cost the same but can be preserved very well due to their jump and disruption.

Plus they can get Sternguard and Vanguard which make the Sergeants permanent. I use them as an example because they are around equal durability and cost

For an "Elite Tier 2 Melee Squad" they aren't exactly living up to their name.

Any other melee squad with power weapons do work on them.

This isn't an insult, but judging by some of these comments I am 99% sure you are not a very experienced player. There is nothing wrong with that, but I get the feeling that your issues with purifiers come from that and not the unit itself. Before I continue, remember that GK are the hardest race to play and it's units like this which are the classic example of why they aren't really intended to be used competetively by people who don't yet have a certain amount of experience.

To take the comments in order:

• Justicar dying is because you lead the charge with them against armies or allow them to be focus fired easily
• No it's not. Bad luck is once. Caeltos said something about the Dunning-Kreuger effect (did I spell that right) that you should have a look at
• You can't compare any of those units to purifiers. ASM are a jump/disruption/tanky unit whilst Sternguard are a versatility unit. Purifiers are almost a supportive/tanky combat unit
• I have some sympathy for you here, as I've seen plenty of players see their purifiers neutralised. But for the few who actually know how to use them, and have the ability to execute it correctly, I can guarantee you that they are consistently a ferocious and formidable unit
• Not really true, but those that do are more dedicated melee fighters than purifiers

Purifiers are not a brawler unit like KCSM or a (glass)cannon like banshees or genestealers. I could write a dissertation on how to use them and tbh you'd still struggle with this unit until you've put more hours into the game.

That's not what you wanted to hear I know, but the way GK are designed is that you are forced into using them in a combined arms way and you have to keep everything supporting each other. If you really want a unit that performs in the way I think you want purifiers to then I recommend playing Chaos and going for KCSM.

[Ar-Aamon]

Well I wouldn't call Paladins a bad unit... They are not cheap but they are practically assault terminators with higher dps, passive buff aura, ranged attack and ranged weapon upgrades. But the LRC or termies are probably the more tempting first T3 purchases.

Assault Termis should always be played with Librarian support. Their preformance is way better...without a Librarian they aren't a big impact in the game and the risk of a loss is too high because they are slow and can't retreat.

@Winkel
Because the Grey Knight Codex allows no Stern/Vanguard. Their are 1th Company Space Marines. No I'm joking. The idea is nice regarding the problem of the Justicar who always die first. I have tested (1 Unit vs 1 Unit) it and I have to say that Lord of Lawls isn't completely wrong. Not only the Justicar of the Purifiers tends to die first but also the Justicar of the Strike Squad and Interceptor Squad. Thats quite annoying.

However as wrote above Purifiers need a higher melee skill (80 would be fine).

@DJ Raffa
Uhm, Purifiers ARE dedicated melee fighters and are better than KCSM. Without any support.

[Raffa]

Assault Termis should always be played with Librarian support. Their preformance is way better...without a Librarian they aren't a big impact in the game and the risk of a loss is too high because they are slow and can't retreat.

No

@DJ Raffa
Uhm, Purifiers ARE dedicated melee fighters

No

Are you sure we're talking about the same game?

[Nurland]

Well lib makes Ass Termies more viable and allows you to use the teleport offensively and be generally a bit more aggressive with less risk of losing them. Many good players use ATs without lib support though and they are perfectly viable even so. GK lib works extremely well with GK Termies and Paladins also.

[Kvek]

God please stahp. Purifiers are fine as they are. I don't play GK that much but the Justicar DOESN'T die faster than other members. Seriously more melee skill for purifiers ? Their hammer does some crazy knockback (Like the FC'S TH). With some nice support they can beat most t2 dedicated melee squads and with the hammer disruption can disrupt very nicely.

[Lord of Lawls]

It is true that I have not put 1500 hours plus into the Elite Mod like I HAVE in vanilla Retribution. So you are 99% wrong. You make many assumptions, and take quotes that I wrote way out of context. That being said, I appreciate your civil response. Don't find many of those on the interwebs. One thing I did learn is that Grey Knights are supposedly the hardest race to play. Didn't know that, but it seems likely due to things like broken purgation squads. When I say, "maybe it's just my incredibly bad luck" I'm just covering my ass. I'm not the best DoW player in the world and I can admit it. But I know what's going on.

To make the assumption that he dies all the time because he's running at a ranged blob getting shot is a bit much. Obviously, if something gets shot it's going to die. I'm talking about keeping him alive in combat in general.

I wasn't comparing the ASM and Tacts UNITS to Purifiers. They are all completely different units. However, their sergeants are the same price with good durability. What I was getting at was that the ASM and Tacts 100/25 and 75/25 are well worth it because you rarely ever lose them if played well. If you do it's generally something you could have avoided, or a solid play from your opponent (ermah gherd banshees back side attack). You clearly have done no testing with Purifiers. I encourage you to get a buddy and see just what Purifiers can and can't kill simply in a one on one fight. And how often that stupid Justicar dies. A one on one fight is not DoW, but a unit still needs to perform! Ar-Aamon seems to be the only one here who actually has...

As far as Purifiers NOT being a dedicated melee unit... I'm not sure I can agree with you on this one. Let's look at this unit:

3x34.62dps Power Melee and 3x7.89dps Piercing
1x45dps Heavy Melee and 1x13.68dps Piercing

Solid Dps as far as things go eh?

They have one AOE ability:

Psychic Field: Unleash a psychic attack that does intensifying damage in a radius of 10. Initial damage is 20 followed by 8 DPS, 16 DPS then 24 DPS plasma for 3 seconds each.

Pretty sweet ability if they opponent doesn't just move.

So, where is this support you speak of? The only thing you can do with Purifiers is smack things, slash things, and do damage over time with their minds. They have no specific support abilities, and no utilitarian abilities at all! OTHER things can support THEM, such as all the aforementioned things written in my orig. post. Sounds like a dedicated melee squad to me...

It's not just Grey Knights that you need combined arms to use, it's everything in Dawn of War 2. I'm simply saying that Purifiers could use something to make them worth buying. They're just more expensive KCSMs that bleed you MUCH, MUCH harder. Makes way more sense to just get a Dread. They kick butt! And require the opponent to invest in AV. Whenever I field that unit, they just seem to lack any kind of "edge". If any other tier 1 or 2 melee squads pick off a model or two, or god forbid that damn Justicar, then they've already payed for that engagement for themselves. And Kvek, I'm just gonna assume your comment is because you "don't play Grey Knights that much".

Don't need a dissertation, but some reasons why Purifiers are well worth what they cost (not to mention their support costs to make them "effective"), why they don't overlap roles with Interceptors (which are much cheaper), and why their inevitable bleed is worth it would be nice.

[Ace of Swords]

One thing I did learn is that Grey Knights are supposedly the hardest race to play.

[Ar-Aamon]

Are you sure we're talking about the same game?

No

Well then, would you be so kind as to show me the proper usage of Purifiers. I always use them as dedicated melee fighters and not for their supportive/tanky role. I would be glad if I can observe one of your games, that would be great.

@Nurland
I agree with you, if they had lightning claws. With Thunder Hammer, no. I have seen too many replays casted by Indrid in which they get owned. And yes there are a few in which they were great.

@ Kvek
Justicar hasn't a FC-like Hammer...if you want a huge knockback as GK go for the Strike Squad with the melee upgrade.

Don't need a dissertation, but some reasons why Purifiers are well worth what they cost (not to mention their support costs to make them "effective"), why they don't overlap roles with Interceptors (which are much cheaper), and why their inevitable bleed is worth it would be nice.

Yeah, thats the question. Interceptors can do the same job as Purifiers especially with the melee upgrade.

[Lord of Lawls]

Lol, while that IS a really funny picture, heaven forbid that I was honest and admitted I didn't know something Some people are just out there to be D-Bags I guess!