Tank Comparisons.

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Ayy Eye
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Ayy Eye » Sat 14 Apr, 2018 3:19 pm

In fairness no one even knows what the point of this thread is, so you can't really say about not thinking before you type.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Antandron » Sat 14 Apr, 2018 4:01 pm

PianoMan wrote:You obviously don't otherwise these threads wouldn't pop up
Also maybe if you simply deleted these pointless threads then there would be no reason for people to be dickheads


So you behaving like a dickhead is justified by the poor quality of threads you read and not caused by your inherent dickheadishness? You are so dissociated from reality that you might as well be in another dimension. As for the pointlessness of this thread, it is possible that it revealed something about the IG vs Eldar matchup that was not recognised before, namely that it is not an auto-win for Eldar or that even Eldar are at a significant advantage in 2.7.2. I must give you some credit for this after your loss to Stoned_Elf today which has updated the stats to IG 33 - Eldar 23.

And btw if you are wondering why I am so hostile to Piano here is just a small sample of the shit I have to endure from him.

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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Antandron » Sat 14 Apr, 2018 4:21 pm

Ayy Eye wrote:In fairness no one even knows what the point of this thread is, so you can't really say about not thinking before you type.


You don´t know what the point of this thread is but don´t speak for everyone please.

And why does the thread need a purpose anyway? Can it not exist purposelessly? Is it occupying valuable space that other threads deserve? I apologise to those people who feel their threads have been marginalised by my shitposting.
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Nurland
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Nurland » Sat 14 Apr, 2018 5:23 pm

Ok Piano... So because there are threads you don't like, you are allowed to be an asshole? I don't quite follow the logic.

All I read from your post was "hurr durr, my IQ is a shoe and I can't behave normally in an online environment."
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Nurland » Sat 14 Apr, 2018 6:03 pm

Also regarding this topic I don't think the results of the played games are becessarily a great indicator due to following reasons:
a) Stoned is in around 50% of the games
b) The games are not from people of same skill rating with low RD.

We don't have enough data to do much reviewing with ESL stats. This is mostly due to lack of players and especially 1v1 players.
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PianoMan
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby PianoMan » Sat 14 Apr, 2018 7:14 pm

Nurland wrote:Ok Piano... So because there are threads you don't like, you are allowed to be an asshole? I don't quite follow the logic.

All I read from your post was "hurr durr, my IQ is a shoe and I can't behave normally in an online environment."


maybe if you didn't act like a cuck to literally everyone we wouldn't be getting such dumb threads and you know very well that this one is stupid
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Nurland » Sat 14 Apr, 2018 9:21 pm

I think you are using the words "literally" and "cuck" rather liberally but I don't think this is really going anywhere. This forum is not your personal sandbox where you can throw shit to the walls and do whatever you please. There are certain guidelines you need to follow.

If said guidelines/rules (or well, a single rule) seem to hard to follow. You rpobably should find some other place to post your stuff.

You seem to really struggle with a really simple concept. This is just my impression judging by your reaction to a warning you got from a rather blatant violation of our simple "don't be a dick" -rule in the forum.
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Atlas

Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Atlas » Sun 15 Apr, 2018 2:59 am

GRUDGE MATCH or gtfo.
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Psycho
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Psycho » Sun 15 Apr, 2018 4:39 am

Grudge match when
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Antandron » Sun 15 Apr, 2018 6:23 am

The skill difference is so vast that it is not worth the time unless I got a lot better.
Last edited by Antandron on Sun 15 Apr, 2018 9:27 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Oddnerd » Sun 15 Apr, 2018 6:24 am

Finland vs Czech grudge match plz
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby PianoMan » Sun 15 Apr, 2018 11:35 am

do you think that this thread has any value nurland?
i'm just being honest, most people here think antandron is just posting absolute bullshit but nobody is gonna call him out on it and then we get these threads where he just repeats the same dumb shit
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Nurland » Sun 15 Apr, 2018 1:13 pm

No I don't think this thread has much value so far to be honest. I don't see how that would make unprovoked personal attacks ok though...
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Spankatoshi
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Spankatoshi » Tue 17 Apr, 2018 5:13 pm

fire Prisms are undertuned imo, felt this way since like ever, especially compared to the leman russ, the other tanks are somewhat fine due to the significantly lower range.
the whole eldar race is so micro heavy and kinda doesnt reward you enough for it if you do it well, too bad the playerbase is so low, else im sure the eldar would have a horrible winrate compared to the other factions in a valid survey (aka not one dude playing 50% of the games)
thats all just my opinion tho but did the eldar ever win a faction war?

and whats with this piano kid, grow up mate.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Kvn » Tue 17 Apr, 2018 5:21 pm

Spankatoshi wrote:but did the eldar ever win a faction war?


Rarely, and mostly against IG thanks to Wraithguard being pretty awesome vs them, but Faction Wars are not a great place to assess balance.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Spankatoshi » Tue 17 Apr, 2018 5:39 pm

Kvn wrote:Rarely, and mostly against IG thanks to Wraithguard being pretty awesome vs them, but Faction Wars are not a great place to assess balance.


well atleast they usually involve some of the best players and you have an isolated battle of one race against the other. I guess the fact that they are 3v3 is a bit of a downside but is elite still being balanced strictly towards 1v1 matchups?
because otherwise i wouldnt know a better place to start off a balance discussion.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 17 Apr, 2018 6:31 pm

Spankatoshi wrote:the whole eldar race is so micro heavy and kinda doesnt reward you enough for it if you do it well,
I could not disagree more with this statement. Eldar has so many undodgeable (no interaction from the opposite player) combos to severely damage and wipe units that it's not even funny.

Sorry for the off topic.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Schepp himself » Tue 17 Apr, 2018 6:37 pm

Nurland wrote:No I don't think this thread has much value so far to be honest. I don't see how that would make unprovoked personal attacks ok though...


Apart from the shitposting I think this thread, and other Antandron threads, have the value of being topic/thesis+reason+data. That is 100% more value than other posters often provide with their threads in this forum. With OPs way, you can debate the reasoning and the data and actually get to a result.

Other threads mostly consists of thesis + 3v3 anecdote + optional (outdated) Youtube video.

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Kvn
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Kvn » Tue 17 Apr, 2018 10:15 pm

Spankatoshi wrote:well atleast they usually involve some of the best players and you have an isolated battle of one race against the other. I guess the fact that they are 3v3 is a bit of a downside but is elite still being balanced strictly towards 1v1 matchups?
because otherwise i wouldnt know a better place to start off a balance discussion.


It's mainly balanced for 1v1, but the other game modes are still taken into consideration. The reason Faction Wars are not a good source of balance is because of how tripling up one race skews things. For a faction like SM, it becomes a massive force multiplier since you have so much heavy, durable troops supporting one another as well as some really strong aoe buffs from inspiration. With Eldar, you don't really get that since the Eldar faction really only has one durable unit (Wraithguard) and depend on mobility, which is great until you get stuck in a trench-warfare style siege that often happens in those. In a normal 3v3, they can still do well by letting allies tank while their dps goes unimpeded, and using their Webway gates to get normally slow factions some much needed support, but those things don't usually benefit other Eldar.

Sorry for getting off topic.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Antandron » Wed 18 Apr, 2018 9:08 am

np. OP was not the best anyway.

The following is not my campaign for Eldar buffs or IG nerfs but to prove or disprove the "Eldar OP vs IG" assertion.

IG vs Eldar in 2.7.0, 2.7.1 and 2.7.2:
180 games: Eldar 85 IG 95
Average rating: Eldar 1684 IG 1694

I doubt it matters if Stoned Elf plays 70 of the games, as long as s/he is against similar rated players.

The data can be inputted into this: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=te ... 2,+n%3D180 with the null hypothesis of "Eldar vs IG is balanced 50-50" which is another way of saying that p=0.5, and the conclusion is "we still don´t know with any certainty". When the null hypothesis is "Eldar vs IG is favoured 55-45 or better towards Eldar" which is p=0.55, then the hypothesis can be rejected with 98.5% certainty (100 - p-value), assuming that the data is ok.
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Re: Tank Comparisons.

Postby Nurland » Wed 18 Apr, 2018 3:59 pm

Assuming that the data is ok is they keyphrase here.

The data isn't something I would rely on. The lack of high skill players and overall small playerbase makes skill ratings themselves rather unreliable.

Also the sample size of players is a bit small to make real balance conclusions.
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