Tyranid Topic

[Caeltos]

Post Tyranid performance here

[Indrid]

Doom of Malan'tai's Psychic Storm is out of control. It can solo a GUO in three Storms or thereabouts (184 damage per second). Same with Termies. Seems to last ~10s, so 30% damage per Storm and has a very short cooldown and gets combined with its other abilities.

Suggestion: Cap the damage per second to 75.

[Floid]

And if doom use his hp instead of the enemy unit target? If we cap to 75, is too poor for t3 unit, and will not scale with lvl

[Nuclear Arbitor]

can you retype that please floid, it's not making any sense to me.

[Dark Riku]

"What if the attack uses the doom's HP instead of the enemies' HP for the attack?
If you cap it at 75 damage it would be too poor for a t3 unit
and will not scale when the doom levels up because of this fixed restriction."


FYI Floid, if you do that it would only be doing 22.5 DPS vs every model at lvl 1.
Max 225 damage to every model if they are inside for the full 10 seconds.
Leveling up won't help much here and the Doom has to be at full HP too.

If you go with the 75 cap it would be doing max 75 DPS vs every model at lvl 1.
Max 750 damage to every model if they are inside for the full 10 seconds.

Unless I am reading what you are trying to say wrong Floid
or if the info given here is inaccurate.

[Floid]

Humm, big mistake, I wanted to say that riku said. But yes, only 37.5 DPS at lvl 4 is not really good. 75 or 80 max isn't bad, considering the low cooldown it has.

On the other hand, I think that Doom cannot retreat while he's using spirit leech, is that a bug or is intended? And Flesh hook is still bugged.

Sorry for my english, is not the best.

[Commissar Yarrick]

DoM's AOE DOT ability area of effect could be reduced a bit. It just cowers too much ground.

[Dark Riku]

The ability seems to be doing more damage than 30%.
Taking out a GUO/csm by using the ability 3 times. (after 2 times it did about ~85%)
But tics on the other hand lived after 3 times.
Could it be that the dmg type increases that 30% or something?
I have no actual idea on how his abilities works...

As of now I think the Doom is pwetty damn op ^^
But that's why we have this beta ofcource.

Hope to hear more from Lugrim/Caeltos on this.

Following content is useless:
If I had to suggest something based on what I know atm
I would change the ability to do 1.75% instead of 3%.
This suggestion could be completely useless though since I don't know the proper working of it, but I felt like sharing :p

[Lulgrim]

Yeah I suspected initial Doom version would turn OP which is one reason I still left it in T3 in beta builds, instead of T2 like it was planned. The Storm does 3% psychic damage I think so armor might affect the outcome.

[Caeltos]

If it does, I'll probably need to get abit of look into it. (Armor effects damage)

Based on just values on paper, it shouldn't be THAT significant. You'll see the better pay-off in damage based on units with low/high hp since the damage scales quite nicely off from it. Whereas the misc. other area of effect damage has a static-value that is considerably more valueable against lower hp/quantity models based entities.

I think it's definately well a "salvageable" situation tho. Cooldown increase // tweaks here and there and alot of the pressure from the ability itself can be toned down to a more respectable level if its' that glaring of an issue.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

Code: Select all

building    1.35    tp_energy_shield   0    
tp_energy_shield   0    tp_energy_shield   0
building_defence    1    tp_garrison_cover   1    
tp_garrison_cover   0.3    tp_garrison_cover   0
building_ig_turret   1    tp_heavy    1    tp_heavy    0.75    
tp_heavy    0.25    building_light   1.5    tp_light    1    
tp_light    0.9    tp_light    0.5    commander   0.75    
tp_open    1    tp_open    1    tp_open    1    heavy_infantry   1.5
infantry    1    infantry_fire_resist    1    super_heavy_infantry    1.5
vehicle    0.1

http://dow.wikia.com/wiki/Retribution/Damage_types

i'm hesitant to really comment because i've only seen him in game once, but i think his health is really high at 1000 or what ever it is. i know he's slow but he's a back row artillery unit with tanky melee hero health and you can't tie him up in melee. he absolutely destroys IG

[Caeltos]

It'll stay as it is for a while, give it some more time to settle in.

[Ace of Swords]

The doom needes to cost more and im not sure about his upkeep but that needs to go up aswell, since i have been easily pulling out a doom + 2 or 3 carnis or and a swarmlord all together in various matches but anyway:

The doom is extremely powerful and that 3% thing has to go in favor of a damage-fixed ability currently it's an hard counter to terminators with the terma's snare or any super unit for what it matters, plus the doom itself needs to cost ATLEAST 600/100 if not 600/150(exact cost of a carnifex) IMO you should really have to choose between the doom or a carnifex since i currently find him way more gamechanging and even harder to kill than any carnifex with any variants.


Currently the doom is a no brainer purchase against everyone in 2v2 and 3v3 not sure about 1v1.

[HansMoleman]

I'm posting a 3v3 replay on Calderis Refinery VS Floid on the lane. Its a pretty entertaining match, but watch lategame when my Avatar comes out. It loses its HP within seconds to the Doom's ability. Using its Psychic storm ablity once on a AVA can bring its HP down to half. If you can just get a 400/50 resource unit to counter 800/200, its just silly to keep the ability at this state without change.

Heres the link to the Replay.

http://www.gamereplays.org/dawnofwar2/r ... &id=279874

[Dark Riku]

So after calculation it did ~45%dmg to the GUO in the full 10 secs.
3377/6125

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/542955139993499292/02575B8C39E47A9E6030755ED75D1910E0766D5C/
Screenshot taken asap after the ability.
As you can see the heretics suffered the least oddly enough :p

[Caeltos]

It makes sense given the damage modifier graph which shows it deals more damage to certain targets. (Heavy/Super Heavy etc)

The doom is extremely powerful and that 3% thing has to go in favor of a damage-fixed ability currently it's an hard counter to terminators with the terma's snare or any super unit for what it matters

This is intentional.

[Dark Riku]

I take it it is not intentional that it does ~45% dmg with such a low cooldown though?

[Caeltos]

It was never intended to inflict more damage then intended. That meaning, it should never exceed 3% of damage.

It should stick around that figure, but the energy/cooldown, area of effect and cast range can always be fine-tuned to match the strength of the ability itself more accordingly if it's just doing a tad-to good on that flipside.

[Raffa]

Capillary towers are out of control.

They're almost as bad as gayts. And I hate gayts.

Not a problem in 1v1 I admit, but in 2s and particularly in 3s they can be spammed to cover most of the map. Seriously if you said nid units get all those passive buffs people would be like OMFG NO WAY DATS IMBA MANNN. Upgraded hormas practically become shees. Oh and they're now uncrushable.

Yes I know this is a hard one to fix as you have to keep them useful for 1v1 but they really hurt bigger games.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

- Increase red cost from 35 to 55
or
- Keep the actual cost, but adds a little req/energy cost. (like 70 req/15 energy, for example)

[Indrid]

I don't think they can be balanced by mere cost adjustments, 50 Red perhaps, but that doesn't solve the core issue.

They make Tyranids arguably the most mobile faction in the game, for little cost and little risk. This can become pretty nuts when you have 2 or 3 Nids players all being affected by the towers.

Even if you destroy every tower you see (which a shocking amount of players do NOT do, as you'll see in upcoming Faction Wars whenever I get around to casting them!) there will still be some around HQs/deep in enemy territory that you won't realistically be able to. A faction-wide +1 speed is insane, especially as it affects the HT and other monstrous creatures. The radius either needs to be reduced, the speed buff reduced to +0.5, or it not affect the HT and other monstrous creatures. Or a combination of above.

That still doesn't solve the core issue though; rampant faction mobility from towers in places that you can't realistically destroy. IMO they should decay over time, gradually and slowly losing HP until they collapse (maybe 5-6 mins). Having a permanent speed buff out of your base and further on into the map for little investment is a little OTT. This way you'd eventually need to replace the towers and would therefore be encouraged to use them in more forward areas where the decay wouldn't be as bad because they'd probably be destroyed at some point anyway.

This is coming from 2v2s/team games though, I don't see many replays of Nids in 1v1s.

[Vinyl41]

towers are a pain in the mod the main problem with those is that hte auras stack and there is no penalty for spamming those all around the map ( same is for waaagh banners ) i remember that on retail banners had a 5 pop ( not totaly sure if they had upkeep too ) which was a simple way to counter spamming those all around the map

[Indrid]

The tower effects don't stack iirc, that was old behaviour.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Indrid, I know increasing the cost of the Capillary Towers it's the easy way, but not the best.

IIRC, Caeltos includes the Capillary Towers to give to Tyrannid players an alternative to the classic Tyrannid build (which includes at least one or two Synapse squads or criatures) more focused in non-synapse criatures (Hormagaunst, Termagaunst, Raveners, Genestealers....). In a few words, in a more swarmy build, focused in a lot of little squads without Synapse bombs.

IMHO a lot of little changes and upgrades (Endless swarm, now Hormagaunts have more health in T2 and T3 (IIRC like the new Genestealers), some nerfs to Melee Synapse.... are made to set the base of this alternative Tyrannid build/gameplay.

In this alternative build/gameplay, Capillary Towers needs to be a little spammable, or the build couldn't be enough effective.

The problem is, at the current moment, the Basic/Melee/Ranged/Hero special Synapse stacks with the Capillary Tower aura, and also the Capillary Tower aura affects the Synapse Criatures, which IMHO wasn't the Caeltos initial's idea.

TL:DR: Make the Capillary Tower aura affect only to non-synapse no-monstruous criatures. (Hormagaunsts, Termagaunts, Raveners, Rippers, Genestealers, Lictor and maybe the Tyrant Guard.). Increase the cost to 45 from 35.

[Codex]

I don't think this has been touched on yet, but the ability to drop spore mines in retreat paths is somewhat OP.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

cap the towers at 2 or 3 per player.

on the subject of spore mine call-ins, i think the free (last i heard) spore mines and rippers from fexes is bullshit. both are unsuppressible, rippers are tiny, and spore mines are swarm counters. you take a really, really though unit like a fex, with it's support, and give it an infantry counter for free. i know it's been this way forever, and i haven't noticed anyone else bring it up, but for as long as i've seen it i've thought it was op. the call in is also fast, does not disturb the fex at all, and gives no warming. the only saving grace it that it comes in on the fex and not right on top of your guys.

[Nurland]

Well Lulfexes are T3 and expensive as fuq. Every fex variant is like 210 or so power in retail but can't remember how the prices are in elite. But anyway an unit that costos 700-800/~200, is slow and has 1350 hp and can't be repaired with an ability to summon spore mines or shoot bioplasma is not OP imo. TB fex rippers are good as they can tie up set ups etc but TB fex needs to be pretty darn good to justify the cost.

[Raffa]

I don't think this has been touched on yet, but the ability to drop spore mines in retreat paths is somewhat OP.

Do not get why people are so annoyed with retreat spikes. If you have the skill/map control to pull it off that's wp in my books.

[Codex]

I think the difference here is I don't consider moving a spore mine along the retreat path and following a unit hitting a hotkey counts as skill. On the other hand, a retreat grenade you've at least got to throw it and time in.

[Raffa]

Spikes are dying out. Never got the point of the nerf from 100% to 90% on retreat. Happy to see them in any way now tbh