Tyranid Topic

[Raffa]

Tyranids are the strongest race. Eldar come a close second but not here to talk about them.

Fear, a very talented Tyranid player, no longer plays them regularly because in his words "it's too easy with nids".

For me personally - well I've mained Chaos for all my time in DoW yet after a week or so of really getting to grips with Tyranids I can safely say I am better with Tyranids than with Chaos.

Holyhammer has flitted between various races, but try fighting his newest army and see how that ends up. With practically the same army, he won 8 or 9 champion awards in a row during one of my lobbies of 3v3. He is an exceptional player, but coincidentally he was also using Tyranids.

The most shocking example however is that of Dark Riku. Hope you don't mind me saying this mate, but he is so clearly stronger with Tyranids than SM, in all game modes. And this is arguably the best SM player of all time. I am not joking when I say it is like fighting a different, better player when against his Tyranids than his Apo.

As far as I can tell it is because of:

a) the Tyranid capacity to put you under huge pressure in Tier 1.
b) the superb Tier 2 available to Tyranids, where they can build a ranged superiority army with raveners, damage synapse and ranged synapse. Or they can go for a melee army with genestealers and warriors that is very dangerous aswell.

I'm going to do some more investigating to try to find out what the real specifics are, but I have a strong suspicion that the overall synergy each Tyranid unit has with each other is just too good and that's what makes them so good. Wondering if anyone else has noticed this?

[Ace of Swords]

The most shocking example however is that of Dark Riku. Hope you don't mind me saying this mate, but he is so clearly stronger with Tyranids than SM, in all game modes. And this is arguably the best SM player of all time. I am not joking when I say it is like fighting a different, better player when against his Tyranids than his Apo.

Well this is not the right topic to speak about it but i will make one in the appropriate section when i'll gather enough info, but i feel that the SM faction is very weak at the moment compared to everyone else, they miss the map control of other races or the unit count while they are far from the pressure that their cousins CSM can put out.

I'm going to do some more investigating to try to find out what the real specifics are, but I have a strong suspicion that the overall synergy each Tyranid unit has with each other is just too good and that's what makes them so good. Wondering if anyone else has noticed this?

Im just throwing it in there, but nids have a very powerful eco which got buffed further with endless swarm, and like i pointed in this very thread a few pages before the infestation towers are very overpowered as they impact EVERYTHING in the game for a low cost such as 35 red, they impact melee and ranged engagments, they impact map control and thus the eco of both players, they impact squad wipes/surviability, hormas and other melee units chase faster while all of the nids unit vehicles included do retire/run away faster from combat, and in all this mix nids synpse and synapse bomb have been greatly nerfed in the sense that a warrior exploding in the mid of your units doesn't cause much damage or havoc as they do in retail.

EDIT:

Now that i think off it the Acid Splatter is higly unblalanced by itself and even more so when paired with the speed accesory of the RA or towers and/or the armor that makes him not knockable, currently it 3-shots AC heretics and takes about 1/5 of the healt per hit of any orks/eldar squad and it's still extremely good vs CSMs and SM.

tl:dr it shouldn't do splash.

[FiSH]

I agree with the points made by Raffa and Ace above.
Although I am not a top-level player and only play nids in 3v3 setting (usually with HT), it seems that my economy is rarely in trouble. iirc, endless swarm does not add more pop, and I don't quite understand the reasoning behind it. I really like the new playstyle of endless swarm + towers + improved synapse, but I can't help think that this comes at too low of a price.

[KanKrusha]

I can't help thinking that removing synapse benefits to gene stealers would help. It seems an unnecessary bonus to me (from my pov if complete ignorance)

[Nurland]

Well Genestealers would be absolutely worthless. Well not absolutely worthless but without the synapse buffs since they would bleed like there is no tomorrow. They would be too easy to focus down. With melee synapse though they are pretty awesome.

[Indrid]

With practically the same army, he won 8 or 9 champion awards in a row during one of Indrid's evenings of 3v3 that I was in. He is an exceptional player, but coincidentally he was also using Tyranids.

Wat. This didn't happen in my lobby. When he did this it was with WSE, and last year. I've barely been in the same lobby as him as Tyranids.

[Raffa]

Wat. This didn't happen in my lobby. When he did this it was with WSE, and last year. I've barely been in the same lobby as him as Tyranids.

Yes my bad you're right. It was in my lobby. Changed in original post.

[Torpid]

I was wondering if we could do something about the capillary towers, as like the webway gates, I fear they are a little bit too good.

Now for the price of 35 one tower doesn't do too much, it just makes nearby nids move a bit quicker, and can be used to turn a engagement slightly more in the nids favour due to better kiting ability and melee charge ability.

Still the problem arises here over the whole stretch of the game. The cheap price of the towers results in a spam of them, up to the point where it is impossible to chop them down before the nids have one up elsewhere. The overall effect of this is that tyranid mobility is too good in the current meta. Nids already have very cheap units with very cheap upkeep and so they don't need mobility on top of this.

The solution I would suggest is to make it so that the towers slowly LOSE health, and to increase their hp to maybe 500, while increasing the red cost to 50. Also the towers simply shouldn't affect retreat speed as this is a totally unnecessary and I would hope unintentional buff. Why bother making the towers die over time? Because as I said before the problem isn't so much one tower, but the inevitable spam of towers all across the map which ought to be destroyed in order to limit tyranid mobility, yet if you do take the time to destroy the towers you lose vital time to be capping or gen bashing or doing something else! Therefore if the towers die over time there won't be a point where they give tyranids complete map dominance with a extra speed buff map-wide, but they still retain their ability to improve a nid engagement by letting your melee get in faster and letting your ranged units quite quicker, additional they will still be effective for getting your Fexes/TG/SL out of the battlefield and back to base to heal.

[Ace of Swords]

The towers should be hardcapped at a maximum of 3 and not anymore, so that you can place them in strategical points where you need them and not all over the map while beign able to make a trail from your base.

[Torpid]

I find that a bit extreme. Three is a very small number and it gets rid of their current use for aiding in combat which I assume is intended, and I don't believe is terribly OP. with a rise in the price of red too I don't see the problem with leaving them uncapped but making them not-permanent.

[Raffa]

The solution I would suggest is to make it so that the towers slowly LOSE health, and to increase their hp to maybe 500, while increasing the red cost to 50...

...the problem isn't so much one tower, but the inevitable spam of towers all across the map...

...if the towers die over time there won't be a point where they give tyranids complete map dominance with a extra speed buff map-wide

Grrrrr can't believe I'm doing this but this is actually a sensible suggestion. I would go one step further and say give them decay, but it starts at a very slow (or nonexistant) rate and increases as the number of towers increases

The towers should be hardcapped at a maximum of 3 and not anymore, so that you can place them in strategical points where you need them and not all over the map while beign able to make a trail from your base.

This would be reasonable as long as you can destroy the (no refund) towers with a *click*

[Indrid]

I suggested health decay on page 3, but I think towers only become an apparent imbalance when there are 2-3 Nids using them.

[Dark Riku]

So DoM is still over performing...

It destroys everything but tanks in mere seconds.
It still does way to much damage with the psychic storm destroying any super units going from nobs, terminators to the avatar and GUO.

And then if you try to melee it it just pops up his leech life.
It especially makes ig squads just melt away.

[Kvek]

Why it has the radius of time field ? I think it should have lower radius

[Torpid]

So DoM is still over performing...

It destroys everything but tanks in mere seconds.
It still does way to much damage with the psychic storm destroying any super units going from nobs, terminators to the avatar and GUO.

And then if you try to melee it it just pops up his leech life.
It especially makes ig squads just melt away.

This is true. Paroxysm needs a energy price increase. Leech life needs to do no damage, it should drain energy.

[dance commander]

So DoM is still over performing...

It destroys everything but tanks in mere seconds.
It still does way to much damage with the psychic storm destroying any super units going from nobs, terminators to the avatar and GUO.

And then if you try to melee it it just pops up his leech life.
It especially makes ig squads just melt away.

This is true. Paroxysm needs a energy price increase. Leech life needs to do no damage, it should drain energy.

It needs to do a fixed amount of damage not based on %.

[Torpid]

So DoM is still over performing...

It destroys everything but tanks in mere seconds.
It still does way to much damage with the psychic storm destroying any super units going from nobs, terminators to the avatar and GUO.

And then if you try to melee it it just pops up his leech life.
It especially makes ig squads just melt away.

This is true. Paroxysm needs a energy price increase. Leech life needs to do no damage, it should drain energy.

It needs to do a fixed amount of damage not based on %.

Kind of defeats the point of it then though. Either it becomes useless against leveled units, or late game units or it becomes totally op against t1 units in the late game, wiping them instantly...

I think the percentage modifiers could do with a good changing.

[dance commander]

It's the whole reason why it takes the same amount of time to take down a normal squad and termies, or melting the guo.

[Indrid]

I think Paroxysm needs a longer cooldown.

[PhatE]

I think Paroxysm needs a longer cooldown.

I second this, at times it can pop the ability 2-3 times per engagement and it's range is quite generous too as well as there being no cast time. It's just instant, even if it affects one squad in the late game that's still massive and since the radius is pretty huge chances are that 2-3 squads can be affected and damaged letting genestealers or whatever to come in and scoop up the remains of your army. Having the cool down increased would definitely help.

Not to mention cap towers giving everything a giant speed buff, the two work really well together.

Leech essence is also really strong, DoM doesn't even need to fight to take out serious chunks of HP and by that I mean it's running away and still wipes blood letters or other melee squads.

[Lag]

So DoM is still over performing...

It destroys everything but tanks in mere seconds.
It still does way to much damage with the psychic storm destroying any super units going from nobs, terminators to the avatar and GUO.

And then if you try to melee it it just pops up his leech life.
It especially makes ig squads just melt away.

I vaguely remember writing this over two months ago and getting shit from a number of other players, including yourself.

I do still agree with you guys - Paro needs longer cooldown, Leech essence should be either deleted or it's effectiveness reduced greatly, just as PhatE said. The only way to kill it with IG is to get a very very lucky break by catching it with somewhat low hp, and then to execute it with Commie (hoping that it doesn't just turn around and drain his energy at it's insane rate - which I think it should retain).

[Dark Riku]

I vaguely remember writing this over two months ago and getting shit from a number of other players, including yourself.

And I perfectly remember never finding the DoM balanced.
So you must be mistaking.

[Lag]

Lag: DoM wiping armies.
Riku: Nono, you are wrong, you are playing badly and it is only slightly over-performing.
Lag: But...
Riku: Nono, you are wrong. *Starts chatting to Lag on Steam and keeps calling him a moron.
*Riku tries IG
Riku: DoM wiping armies.

Feel free to explore the discussion. I also wish that Steam had chat history.

[Dark Riku]

And I perfectly remember never finding the DoM balanced.
So you must be mistaking.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

just shut up please; this is either going no where or it's going big and i'd prefer the former.

[Lag]

Thomas suggested looking at LA's hook mechanics maybe, and I agree some ideas should be thrown out there. It can prove to be too effective in some instances (meaning when highly skilled players are playing), when he drags heroes or Sargent's into melee swarms. It can effectively put the hero off the map forcing it to retreat every time, not to mention wiping squads with Sarge's distributed damage over entire squads (I feel the pain of this often as the GM Sarge is both slow and vulnerable).
Anyone else feeling this?

[dance commander]

Thomas suggested looking at LA's hook mechanics maybe, and I agree some ideas should be thrown out there. It can prove to be too effective in some instances (meaning when highly skilled players are playing), when he drags heroes or Sargent's into melee swarms. It can effectively put the hero off the map forcing it to retreat every time, not to mention wiping squads with Sarge's distributed damage over entire squads (I feel the pain of this often as the GM Sarge is both slow and vulnerable).
Anyone else feeling this?

Should have less range and deal no damage on retreating units, its cooldown was reduced from retail and nothing was done to compensate for it.

[TomastheTankEngine]

It is my thinking that the power of the flesh hook is in the ability to pull out high value targets into overwhelming odds. This can often lead to a position where the heros are forced off or killed quickly which can drastically reduce the support and offensive capabilities of the enemy. It is low risk high reward ability with 100% hit and little warning.

Perhaps the flesh hook could be altered in a way which increases the risk for the lictor player by forcing the lictor in still having to move in on the target. If flesh hook could rather knock over a unit and maybe stun it for several seconds this would still force the lictor to move in on the target taking on the risk of engaging a supported hero or squad.

[FiSH]

what is flesh hook also pulled lictor alpha forward so that the two heroes are just pulled together? now LA has to put himself at some risk.

as for the stun idea, doesn't a single-member stun result in the whole squad being disabled? this may grant LA too much control.

[TomastheTankEngine]

as for the stun idea, doesn't a single-member stun result in the whole squad being disabled? this may grant LA too much control.

Individual units from a squad can be stunned. The weird boy vomit will only stun units in the AoE, any squad units outside of the AoE will not be stunned. Or at least that is what I think happens, I maybe wrong.

Also doesn't the Inquisitor starting ability stun single models?