Tyranid Topic

[Dark Riku]

Do not get why people are so annoyed with retreat spikes. If you have the skill/map control to pull it off that's wp in my books.

It's not spiking. it's like: "ow look I have a tower near to his base, lemme produce a spore mine squad there real quick. Ow look gm.... Where'd they go?"

[Codex]

It's a fine fine line between being abuse and being a part of the game... Look at it this way.

Case 1: Retreat nade
You have to throw a grenade to hit a moving target moving along some rails (retreat path). That means several things:

a) You have to judge the retreat path itself.
b) You have to judge the speed at which the retreating squad is moving. As you know this increases over time, so the player will sometimes have to judge how much the squad is accelerating.
c) You have to preemptively move a squad into the retreat path, requiring its own judgement.
d) You are committed to sending a squad there in order to throw said grenade, and grenade will be on cooldown.

Case 2: Retreat Autarch call-in

a) and b) are the same as above
c) The faster the squad is moving, the less time and room for error there is. Mistiming it results in a complete miss. The call in of 4 grenades means that you have to account for the delay of each grenade.
d) You require LOS to pull this move off.

Case 3: Capillary Spore Mines, requires:.

a) You need to judge the retreat path, and intercept the retreat path.
b) You need to preemptively build spore mines.
c) You have LOS from the Capillary Tower, and Spore Mines natively have sight which allows them to chase down with impunity.

In the Spore Mines case, you're not even having to commit a squad, or judge where along the retreat path to hit. You just intercept the retreat path, and move the spores along it, hitting the hotkey as you go. IG in particular really hurt as they blob even harder on retreat.

Compared to a retreat nade or Autarch call in, it's trivial to carry out but equally effective. It's like having an Autarch call in that automatically gives you a template for how to drop your nades in a retreat path. Except that it doesn't cost 150 red.

[Raffa]

Points taken Codex, but a few things to bear in mind

1) Grenades, in the right hands, are far deadlier as spikes than spore mines (that's not to underplay the power of spore mines)
2) Grenades cost energy, spore mines cost 100/5 and 1 pop per mine, possibly with 35 red for the tower. So you have to make up that value in casualties for it to be worth it. It is likely you will get one, maybe 2 detonations on retreat. And you can't expect the mines to survive long after to get more value out of them.

Compared to a retreat nade or Autarch call in, it's trivial to carry out but equally effective. It's like having an Autarch call in that automatically gives you a template for how to drop your nades in a retreat path. Except that it doesn't cost 150 red.

Sorry mate but not really..yes it is annoying when mines go off in the retreat path like this but tbh most of the time the nid player is actually paying more, just the other guy feels more pissed

[Asmon]

Towers need higher health, higher cost (50 red) and to affect only monstruous creatures.

[Codex]

Annoying? A wiped guardsmen squad is a little more than annoying. Sure it's 100/5 he'll never see again but if he gets one squad down, that's more than worth it. In the end in general spores you can shoot to prevent them from owning you, but there's no recourse with retreat spores coming out in your retreat path.

You say that you can only get 2 spore detonations off in retreat. Yes, maybe that is true if they are moving as one squad. But sometimes squads move in a more disparate blob, and you can get 3 or 4 detonations off on retreating units. Besides, if it's used on weakened units 2 detonations might be all that it takes.

Yes, grenades on retreat tend to be more damaging. But unless you are using it on a severely weakened squad, one grenade is not going to wipe anything. Unlike a spore mine, if it's in the thick of it then that can inflict far more attrition.

[Raffa]

Annoying? A wiped guardsmen squad is a little more than annoying.

The point of spikes is to wipe. Grenades do it better than spore mines.

Yes, grenades on retreat tend to be more damaging. But unless you are using it on a severely weakened squad, one grenade is not going to wipe anything.

You should watch replays of Edtjuh as wse on Harlequin's channel on Youtube. Like 2 years old now but the point is the same.

Better yet, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTKeL5hJElc
If you want to just see the nade it's somewhere between 5-10 mins in. I'll edit this post later with the specific time. Not wanting to sound arrogant, but that is how to throw a grenade.

[Codex]

Well I've played enough times with Edtjuh and seen enough replays. Look, you're nitpicking the argument right now. Yes, grenades on retreat can be devastating if you hit perfectly, of course they can. But you still want to use 2 grenades, spaced out to achieve the best effects.

The point is: Spores really hurt orks, nids and IG in particular on retreat, due to their model count and general low health. Plus, I don't see that it requires particularly much skill to use it. That's all of my argument.

[Raffa]

But you still want to use 2 grenades, spaced out to achieve the best effects.

Did you look at the link?

I know you're argument mate and I do understand where you're coming from - I agree that the things that require skill (nadeeee spikessss) should have more reward than this combo; but that's the point imo they are. This seems a bit like the FOS+teleport thread. Problem on paper, fine in reality

[Codex]

Alright then, we'll leave it at that.

[Dark Riku]

DoM is still over performing if you ask me.
Same reasons as before. Just a little less now.

[Ace of Swords]

Capillary towers speed buff has to be removed it's just not working as intended, has it works in combat and in retreat, without counting that you can make a track of them from your base to the battlefield making them almost as good as portals for fast traveling (and like i mentitioned the buff works in retreat aswell) not even banshees can catch retreating units under this buff it's just insane.

Beside the fact that these towers provide already offensive and defensive buffs, they also have virtually 0 cooldown, only cost 35 red and they have 600 hp of light building armor, it takes quite alot to take them down, and there's no way to destroy them during an engagment, and as of now they are a priority target as in you will lose if you don't get rid of them.

I also think that even if the speed buff would work as intended it would still be overpowered, as in the nids units are already fast by themselves and i really think their melee units do not need this kind of help to get closer, nor their ranged units need this kind of help to kite especially when their basic ranged units is in posses of a powerful snare.

In all of this they also seem to break suppression when they come up it's still unconfirmed but i'll check later just to be sure.

So my suggestion is to completely remove the speedbuff and adjust the tower cost/cd 35 red for an increase of damage on your units + a reduction of damage taken and some suppression resistance on a 600hp light building is too good.

[Nurland]

Hmmm. I thought the other buffs were removed and replaced with the speed buff?

[Raffa]

Remember towers are intended to give nids a more swarmy way of playing, without being so reliant on synapse. But spam them and yes you get that pathway from base and a big red income aswell.

They should be capped to 3 per player, but you can choose to destroy one (like salvage but instant and with no refund)

[Indrid]

They don't generate red or give any defensive/offensive buffs any more. Just +1 speed out of combat and a +25% sight radius buff. The towers themselves also have a small radius of keen sight.

[Indrid]

To encourage different playstyles? Or should we go back to Zoan ----> Carnifexes?

Think.

[Kvek]

Delete them anyway , why best race has any kind of buffs lol?

Best race ? rofl. If u want to know why they got so many buffs. Go play some retail games and then return. Maybe you will know

[sk4zi]

actually Eldar is the best race

my suggestion is: let them give huge amounts of EXP - so the nid player needs to think twice if he provides so many of them

atm they give no exp at all when destroyed ... thats very anoying imho

[Caeltos]

* This post is directed towards Pankiller, whos messages are now deleted and ridiculed in the void *
I got a better suggestion. I'll delete you from the forums. You've been bringing nothing worthwhile to discuss, or been elaborate or constructive for the matter.

[Ace of Swords]

Delete them anyway , why best race has any kind of buffs lol?

Best race ? rofl. If u want to know why they got so many buffs. Go play some retail games and then return. Maybe you will know

Nids are the best 1v1 race in retail.

They don't generate red or give any defensive/offensive buffs any more. Just +1 speed out of combat and a +25% sight radius buff. The towers themselves also have a small radius of keen sight.

I cannot find any data, the tooltip is still the old one,the wiki says nothing and i cannot find the file, @caeltos can we have a clarification on what the towers exactly do? And is it intended for them to give the speed buff to the carnifex and other T3 units aswell as it working in combat/retreat?

Beside, the entire T2 of nids has always been viable and the t3 build is now doom>spam carnis.

[Indrid]

From the notes:

* "Infestation" Biomass cost decreased from 75 to 35
* "Infestation" capillary towers can now produce Ripper Swarms and Spore Mines
* "Infestation" capillary towers no longer generate Biomass
* "Infestation" capillary towers now increase the sight radius of nearby Tyranids by 25%
* "Infestation" capillary towers now increase the speed of nearby Tyranids by 1 if they are not in combat
* "Infestation" buff effect now affects heroes, Warriors and Swarmlords
* "Infestation" capillary tower sight radius increased from 5 to 30
* "Infestation" capillary tower keen sight radius increased from 0 to 5

[Ace of Swords]

It doesn't say they removed the other buffs, while it states what has been removed/changed.

[Indrid]

Well I think that's implied by the cost reduction. Wouldn't knock 40 red off the cost, add a load of things and only remove KB. Pretty sure they do not provide the Synapse buff now.

[Ace of Swords]

Well I think that's implied by the cost reduction. Wouldn't knock 40 red off the cost, add a load of things and only remove KB. Pretty sure they do not provide the Synapse buff now.

What has been removed is listed, it's only logical that they still provide the buffs, i require an official clarification on what the infestation towers do.

[PanKiller]

Still no ballance reason why infastation has been implemented and waiting for it so long .

[Caeltos]

You wouldn't even understand, or accept it even if I wrote a bloody essay. There was a thought process behind it for a good chunk of period of time. Don't insult me by saying I just threw it in for the lulz.

[sk4zi]

what about making them give exp ?

[Caeltos]

Fairly sure they do, just not alot of it tho, probably something similiar to the webways, which is around 50 exp or so.

[Kvek]

Yeah great idea since Lulgrim luled them so they can't be used for "abuse"

[Raffa]

Does the damage bonus from Damage Synapse stack with the damage bonus from Melee Synapse/Ranged Synapse?

[Nurland]

Melee synapse doesn't give dmg bonus only health and melee skill iirc. And I would assume RA dmg synapse stacks but not sure.