Eldar Topic

[Caeltos]

Post Eldar performance here

[Helios]

Increase Wailing Doom CD. Seriously. 30 seconds on an ability that can wipe squads COMPLETELY thanks to doing full damage on retreat and ability knockback? That's insane. Storm Eagle and Cyclone missile barrage which are far harder to hit with have longer CD's than this. Up to 45 at least. or make it 60-70 energy cost.

[Floid]

I'm not sure if everybody has surrendered or not, but i want to play fair team games, and is it is absolutely impossible with eldars and his damned, endless and invisible gates. So guys, if you are agree with me and the fact that there is something wrong with those gamebreakers gates, please, help me.

Why, on behalf of the most sacred, those gates doesn't have cooldown? Why cost only 50 red? Why they are all invisible? Caeltos or Lulgrim, have you ever played team games vs eldars? Do you know how shitty is fight 1 or 2 vs 3 armys in one side of the map losing tons of units because you need VP's, loosing the engagement and then the team with eldars using his gates for kill the alone poor guy who is fighting in the other side of the map, trying to fight alone for decap and stay in game one minute more? Every damned team game must be played with one eldar in each team for be fair? Where is the strategy when they can be in any part of the map?

Please, there are a lot of people playing 3v3 and 2v2, and those gates are OP as hell in this kind of games. DOW is not only 1v1. I really appreciate your work, specially with nids, because now they are competitive in 2v 3v, but try to watch teamgames with good eldar players using gates everywhere. Doesnt matter how many gates you find or destroy, they will build another one, invisible and without cooldown.

Best regards, sorry for my english and thanks again for keeping this game alive (but not only 1v1).

Nom.

[Kvek]

Maybe a limit like 3 gates per player ?You need 100 red to travel and if u spam them u have no red for nuke etc

[Raffa]

Floid has hit the nail on the bloody head. Riku was calling them gayts earlier and I think I'm gonna continue with that. However this mod is first and foremost for 1v1 (as it should be) so there is a balance to be struck.

Even in 1v1 gayts can be insanely powerful. Seriously 2x Darkreapers popping out of nowhere kill a tac squad in seconds. In any game mode. That's without the ridiculous map control you get from them.

iirc was playing with Riku vs Tyger and Swat. They went 2 eldar I was like no fucking way change teams plz I want a real game. Cos of gayts.

150 red per gayt. And please give them a real cooldown.

[Kvek]

150 red per gate ?-Madness just give it something like ravener tunnel cooldown

[Ace of Swords]

Increasing the red cost is probably the best way to nerf them without breaking them, they are AND should be an important investement, gates will win you games in 1v1 and even more so in large 3v3 maps, not only they remove all of the travel time between your base and any random point of the map but they can be used for ambushes or to intercept retreat paths easily.

So you either increase their red cost or you make so that you cannot use the portal more than once every 1 or 2 mins.

[Kvek]

Maybe increase cost to 100 but no more. And maybe something like a debuff when you exit the gate should prevent from "2x darkreaper popping out of nowhere kill a tac squad in seconds"

[XPhial]

I agree 100% with Floid. Seriously those damn gates are spammable and at the same time have buffs / abilites on them while costing only 50 red??!?!??! Put a limit on them or if nothing else make them take pop cap / have cool down and increase red so if someone spams them like I have seen so many damn times then they cant have a pop of full army while as being able to nuke in the end.

[Toilailee]

Have to agree on this, gates at 50 red are insanely imba. They can be constantly spammed and no matter how many you kill, they can always build more. Especially farseer, since farsight is only 35 red now. She can use farsight to pop a gate anywhere on the map for just 85 red.

The farseer gate ability to infiltrate armies was op alredy and adding abilities to wse and warlock gates didn't help either. Wse can spam his abilities like there's no tomorrow thanks to his gates and warlock never has to spend 2 seconds healing at base when he has a gate at his base.

[Asmon]

*pop in*

Huhuhuhuuuuhuu!

*pop out*

[Lulgrim]

What if Webgay Gates had a population cost of 3-5?

You need a minimum of two to actually travel anywhere so would 75 GR be enough cost-wise considering that? Or should the first one (presumably you put it by your HQ) be free then the next ones in the 100+ area?

A heavy cooldown will basically force players to plan/commit for the gayting earlier (build one to prepare then wait for cooldown/GR/demand to drop the next one and travel).

Caeltos is the balance guy, though.

[Floid]

Area means the same thing of ravener tunnels, a short distance? I was thinking on it, maybe increase red and "limit distance between gates" would be great.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

At the moment, with all the benefits that Eldar gates gives (map control to a race which high base speed with sprint in a lot of units and HP regen/Energy regen/area infiltration and speed) and also the own gates having permanent infiltration for 50 red and 2 or 3 pop (i don't remember) cost is simply insane.

Not mention that, since they have very little base area can be placed anywhere. Now add the permanent infiltration. Sometimes is impossible to find them, and more if your opponent it's a good eldar player.

IMHO and keeping the current characteristics needs at least to cost 75 red, and maybe a little more.

[Lulgrim]

Area means the same thing of ravener tunnels, a short distance?

No I was talking about the GR cost.

At the moment, with all the benefits that Eldar gates gives (map control to a race which high base speed with sprint in a lot of units and HP regen/Energy regen/area infiltration and speed) and also the own gates having permanent infiltration for 50 red and 2 or 3 pop (i don't remember) cost is simply insane.

They don't cost population at the moment.

[Lag]

I think increasing cost to 75 red and trying it out is the simplest way to go.

[Caeltos]

Any specific matchup // map that this is the big issue at?

[Osinski]

Eldar are very mobile, but I think that's kind of their thing, right?

I wonder how it might play out if they just weren't cloaked.. Why are they invisible anyway? Because the Eldar are the only ones who know how to traverse the warp via webway? Pff.. At least you wouldn't have to go through the trouble of spotting them. Then the 50 red cost could be arguable.

Ravener tunnels aren't a problem. Maybe get rid of invis and add cooldown. Though, the cooldown thing can be argued because you need 2 to travel. I suppose you could make the case they are still useful for their free abilities.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

gates are useless when when they don't cloak. they have 450 health and die in a couple of seconds to a couple of squads.

cost goes to high and gates are also useless because you can't afford to use them.

you guys have also identified two separate issues with gates: rapid unit movement and map control.

to change the rapid movement i had suggested that the transport capacity of the gates be increased but the speed at which units exit the gate also be increased. that results in less micro with the often hard to click gates and less chance of popping out a bunch of units and wiping something in a couple of seconds.

to change map control you have to reduce the number of gates available. that can be done by increasing the cost, removing the cloaking, or adding a cool down. afaik the game engine does not allow for minimum distances between things. as i said above, removing cloak or increasing the cost to much, anything above 75 red is too much, and gates will not be used outside of two gates to and from a defense line around a VP or in the middle of the map. or a single gate will be place in the base by the warlock for healing.

as for ravener gates, the closest comparison, they're really good too but are limited to one hero, have a long cool down (although they are built in pairs), and cost a fair bit of energy on a hero who can be quite energy intensive. race dynamics are also a little different.

[Dark Riku]

Ravener tunnels don't even come close to what gayts are.
You do not mention that tunnels can only be build by the hero and make him vulnerable while doing so. They are also only build where the hero is and in a close range to it. Not instantly everywhere on the map where you have LoS.
They are also visible and can be crushed.

As to answer Caeltos. It's an issue on every map vs every matchup.

75 red seems the bear minimum to me.
Making them visible but beefing up the health to 600 wouldn't hurt either.
So squads won't get wiped in seconds because they got near a gayt they can't see.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

ravener tunnels propagate much faster and are available instantly because they only cost energy and are placed in pairs. the ravener's vulnerability while building them is a non-issue from what i've seen, although other who have played him more may know of circumstances where it's an issue; he doesn't usually start building a tunnel in the middle of a fight and even if surprised is unlikely to be killed, especially since he jumps into the tunnel as soon as it's finished.

the build distance is admittedly less than a webway gate however there isn't anything stopping someone from moving the ravener behind the enemy and building a pair of tunnels. the only difference between the ravener and non-farseer eldar is that the ravener has to be back there himself, rather than any allied unit. neither gates nor tunnels are built instantly and once started neither need los. i'm not entirely sure that raveners need los to start tunneling although i believe they do.

the crush is debatable; i feel that tunnels would be fine if they were not crushable.

the visibility of the tunnel is offset by their cheaper cost and faster propagation rate.

[Vapor]

How about this:

- Add (small) pop cost

- Keep the basic 50 red cost, but remove the automatic infiltration and activated ability from vanilla gates.

- Include a 35 red cost upgrade with a ~15 sec build time (or maybe a small req/power cost + 25 red) that adds back the auto-infiltration and activated ability.

This would nerf the "fully functional" gates (now 85 red) while still allowing for cheap placement of uninfiltrated "vanilla" gates. The vanilla gates would be especially useful for that one gate at your base (or your allies' bases) since there isn't really a need for the infiltration/ability there anyway (unless you want the warlock healing aura). I think this is good because it discourages gate spam while still making that first base gate relatively cheap. It also gives Eldar players the choice to save 35 red by using only vanilla gates, but they would have to place them a little further back from the action to stop them from getting destroyed immediately.

Also, are the current gates repairable? Would probably be a good idea to make them repairable if they lose the auto-infiltration.

[Kvek]

How about this:

- Add (small) pop cost

- Keep the basic 50 red cost, but remove the automatic infiltration and activated ability from vanilla gates.

- Include a 35 red cost upgrade with a ~15 sec build time (or maybe a small req/power cost + 25 red) that adds back the auto-infiltration and activated ability.

This would nerf the "fully functional" gates (now 85 red) while still allowing for cheap placement of uninfiltrated "vanilla" gates. The vanilla gates would be especially useful for that one gate at your base (or your allies' bases) since there isn't really a need for the infiltration/ability there anyway (unless you want the warlock healing aura). I think this is good because it discourages gate spam while still making that first base gate relatively cheap. It also gives Eldar players the choice to save 35 red by using only vanilla gates, but they would have to place them a little further back from the action to stop them from getting destroyed immediately.

Also, are the current gates repairable? Would probably be a good idea to make them repairable if they lose the auto-infiltration.

What about 20power 150 req for the infiltration ? so you would need to pay 50 red and 20P-150Req for an infiltrated gate

[PhatE]

I'm going to agree with pretty much what Floid and the others have said in regards to how unfair these things are.

They are ridiculous, especially in team games, it basically allows for mass deployment everywhere. Given how team games have been progressing too, you can get the 50 red in the first engagement or just soon after. If you are the Warlock you just have such a huge advantage so early on since the webway ability provides extra healing at base in which it has been buffed meaning extra healing goodness.

I always liked the idea of a cooldown for these things, but I think that's a little bit of a redundant statement in the early game most of the time the first gate is deployed in base but even still it's a good idea regardless because being able to pop gates in 4 locations at the same time giving mega map control is a bit excessive. Couldn't I just have banshee's literally attack 4 different capping/going to cap squads in the matter of just 1 minute? This is after eldar has lost a fight and retreated

They also provide you with a get out of jail free card when massive mistakes are being made. This is just a characteristic that makes them so much better than a lot of stuff in this game and having them so cheap and at no cooldown makes Eldar, a very formidable race as it already is, even stronger when webways are used well.

I really liked the way webways were done in retail that being 75 red that way Autarches came in way later if that player wanted to be using a webway focussed approach to a MU. I was thinking, given this mod is very subject to change, maybe give them energy so while the cloak is on the energy much like any infiltrator unit. That way if by chance you happen to lose your detectors the webways can still be killed (given that they run out of energy) without having to walk right next to it to see and then having banshee's run out and murder you as was mentioned previously.

If it were to be an upgrade and they didn't have cloak granted by default, make it so that they get a large health buff or something so that they aren't totally useless and can stick around. Or even change the range at which they are detected by non detectors if they keep their invisibility (if the game engine allows this to happen I don't know that's a Cael and lulgrim thing to figure out). This is mostly because I really hate banshee's just running out and killing stuff when you have to get close to see these things. As Orks I don't find it that huge of an issue but other races core armies aren't based around a detector.

I dunno I never really liked the idea of a global being permanent as well as being hard to kill without the right unit/army types. Such as in the case of bunkers, those things are really hard to destroy and 2 sentinels next to them adds to the difficulty. In contrast to this webways are also permanent but are really hard to see (obviously because they are invisible) unless you saw the moment they were being planted and where. Even having them pop up on the minimap as permanent would be good rather than just a health bar and an invisible box whilst they are building.

Don't really know what else to say, as Riku has said, it really is an issue for every matchup, 1 vs 1's not as much, but team games they yield more potential.

[XPhial]

*pop in*

Huhuhuhuuuuhuu!

*pop out*

Rahhh get outta here you! On another note I do like the idea about having the cloak being an upgrade that cost power / requisition sounds like it overall could improve things and make it so gates arent just something you "throw out there" and pop cap of 5 probably would suit it but 3 is bare minimum I'd say.

[Dark Riku]

Don't really know what else to say, as Riku has said, it really is an issue for every matchup, 1 vs 1's not as much, but team games they yield more potential.

It's an even bigger issue in 1v1 since it is more based on map controle.
And taking advantage of every retreat possible. Gayts pretty much negate that.
On top of being able to "snipe" with their surprise attacks.

[Raffa]

Now that I play Eldar 1v1 I can safely say that they are op. Seriously farsight+gayt next to enemy power farm and boom they lose it, and you paid 85 red. They are a problem for every race and they are what makes Eldar the best race atm.

Say we went for 125 red per gayt. That's 250 to travel. It's also a permanent global. I for one would be much more careful but would still use them at 125 red a pop.

[basi7]

Would it be possible to give the gates some travel time like IG had for their listening posts in DOW1?

[Nuclear Arbitor]

increasing the health on the gates, especially if they can still cloak, will make the gates even harder to destroy which means they'll stay on the field longer. probably not a good idea.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

Now that I play Eldar 1v1 I can safely say that they are op. Seriously farsight+gayt next to enemy power farm and boom they lose it, and you paid 85 red. They are a problem for every race and they are what makes Eldar the best race atm.

Say we went for 125 red per gayt. That's 250 to travel. It's also a permanent global. I for one would be much more careful but would still use them at 125 red a pop.

I am the most Eldar biased Chaos Player here. I hate eldar. With all my corrupted soul. I hate all their damned tricks. May Slaneesh eat all their inmortal souls for breakfast. And there is only one thing i fear more than an eldar player: a good eldar player.

But 125 per gate it's too much. And in the end, don't resolve the main problem, which is that gives too many map control to a race with great mobility.

All the rest of permanent structures or globals that gives map control (Shrines, Relay Beacon, Turrets, bunkers...) have at least two of these different costs: resource cost, red cost or pop cost.

Eldar Gates cost only red, and have a low price. In other situations maybe could we excuse this cost (webgates uncloaked, for example). With the current stadisctics and benefits, there is excuse at all for that price.

A maximun number of gates aren't going to resolve this problem. The same with a req/energy cost, because eldar are relatively expensive with their upgrades and reinforce, and fragile.

Here is my suggestion: Increase cost to 75 red. Adds a 3 pop cost. No other changes.