Imperial Guard Topic

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Caeltos
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Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Caeltos » Mon 11 Mar, 2013 2:46 am

Post Imperial Guard performance here
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Techpriest Drake
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Techpriest Drake » Wed 20 Mar, 2013 3:24 am

Love what you did with Assault kit for the stormtroopers, at least the regular guys finally have some nades to throw around.

Arty spotter could use a damage buff.

Subcommanders! Specifically the post i made here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=42&start=20

Command variant Chimera we talked about before?

Moar Leman Russ and Baneblade Variants!
Not the STC, you savages!
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Shas'el Doran'ro » Sat 27 Apr, 2013 3:41 pm

I would like to request the Catachan Smoke grenade be reverted back to it's previous state with the 80% damage reduction and 90% suppression reduction.
I know this may sound unnecessary but I am really missing that damage reduction when I am playing guardsmen, my current builds just ain't working like they used to, I really need that damage reduction when I go up against those double or triple Dire Avengers or Shootas, the current smoke grenade just doesn't give me any advantage against the many ridiculous ranged blob builds some players like to make. I really hope you'll change this back, the smoke grenade's effect is only temporary after all.
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Kvek » Sat 27 Apr, 2013 4:15 pm

lol 90% damage reduction combine it with another damage reduction buff-Lord general's t2 armor upgrade. And they are immune to ranged damage
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Dark Riku » Sat 27 Apr, 2013 4:48 pm

I don't think you realize what you are asking here Shas'el Doran'ro ...
50% reduction is already pretty fucking high. Wth NO drawbacks to the smoke.
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Lag » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 12:37 am

I know I'm not the best player around so I say this with the reserve of just not being good enough to deal with some things.
My impression is that IG have major problems with their t1 to t2 transition. If they invest enough into t1 to safely transition to t2, they are stuck with a lot of units that transfer poorly into higher tiers (Guardsmen, Sentinel and Spotters don't really deal that much damage, Catas are great but don't have that much of a range so they are very situational and can either rape or get melted, making them very risky to rely on for bleeding purposes). I once went triple Guardsmen in a 3v3 game against triple Eldar and accompanied it with a Chimera in t2 only to end up with a score of 0 by the end of the game. Triple Guardsmen focus a Banshee squad to bleed one model before forced to load up back to the Chim. I ain't the best, but I ain't a complete noob either and that is shit damage.
T2 is much better but in order to be able to truly invest in t2, a player needs to go for a light t1, risking power wipes and shit.

Here is some stuff I can't wrap my head around as playing IG:

Upgraded double Shootas - Can fuck up power in seconds, rape Sentinels, butt-rape Guardsmen, can't be chased down if handled properly. I honestly think that either their range should be brought down a bit (if you have the Commissar and engage the double Shootas with shield up - his shield will be melted and his health down to 30% by the time he reaches them), or their speed should be reduced a notch with the Nob upgrade completed as they seem to be too agile for a unit of that t1 dps. I won't go into theorycrafting too much but a Orc t1 unit shouldn't be as effective as the t3 Kasrkins. I won't even mention the detection which denies any chance of detonation charges or sneaky Catachans.

Doom of Malan'tai - everything it has EATS all that is IG. That is not the problem though. The problem is that even if you manage to reach it, get close where it should be vulnerable - it just pops the life-leech ability. It's like having a Manticore with a free self repair ability, and the more units attacking it - the faster the repair! It's a long range arty unit which has abilities that bring Monstrous Creatures and Nobs to half health in matter of seconds, but that's okay because it gets vulnerable once you get close to it - not.

Eldar Gayts - already discussed in another topic so I wont get into these.

Farseer's Psychic Storm - "Lets just take an ability that deals good damage over time just like Immolate - but add the suppression so the units can't actually move out of it. In other words - a mass retreat ability against the IG. I can only suggest delaying the start of the spell effect so that a careful player can have some time to move out of it instead of just punishing him for having an army that consists of many weak models.

Nemesis Vortex - same as Psychic Storm. Just spawns almost immediately, is impossible to run away from without a transport and deals a shitload of damage. A longer delay would make it more of a ability that punishes lack of attention rather than just being a spammable "force retreat" ability.

Commissar's execute bug still in the game - is this not fixable? Every time I execute one of my Guardsmen all of the capping orders get cancelled and I have to do them again. Especially annoying if I send a lone squad for a shit-capping trip while the main battle occurs only to discover that it has stopped moving altogether as soon as I executed a squad in the fight.

Lord General's turret having Vehicle armor - WHY? I still don't get it. Why must it fall to one Manti barrage, to a few Power Fist slaps, to Tankbustas Volleys etc. Why does it have the easy-to-deal-with vehicle armor while the t1 turrets buildable by the Mekboy, Tech Marine and Plague Champion are bastions of steel in the middle of the battlefield - and they don't even require red to be built. Also it's shooting physic is fucked. Place it in the center of Medean Cliff mines - it will keep shooting in the ground. Just useless.

I hope any of these made some sense. Thanks for reading!
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 3:53 am

To respond to your first paragraph:
2gm accompanied by 1 sent do respectable ranged dmg.
Come T2 you can also upgrade your gm to plasmas to deal with HI.
They are also dirt cheap to reinforce.

Spotters are meant to disrupt/dislodge.
You can stop anything ranged from being effective for a period of time with the smoke. Spotters make for example the baneblade useless for a while.
Upgraded with the incendiary round they do a lot of damage to stationery targets.


Taking Eldar shes as an example doesn't really help.
With their exarch upgraded they get 50% damage reduction while FoF'ing.
Don't ask me why though since they are supposed to be glass cannons...

You don't really need a light T1 to go with a heavy T2.
You could go heavy on both.

*Orks btw ;)
Spotters counter big shootas pretty easily.
kb/smoke --> shoot them down, close in.
kb/smoke again after first effect has worn of --> keep on pushing them of ^^

DoM. You have to hit that thing hard and fast or otherwise try to minimize the dmg.

It has vehicle armour because otherwise T1 stuff would take it down like it is nothing. You rather have it go down to flamers? Or anything that melees it?
It's not that easy to deal with, you need hard or some light av.
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Lost Son of Nikhel » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 8:44 am

I would like to see more the Banewolf. At the moment it's the most underused unit of the Imperial Guard faction.

Why? I mean, his flame damage is awesome against structures, units in garrisons and Infantry squads. His ability snares AND damages the enemy squad units, and his default flamer attack also slows by 40%. With this two snares, the banewolf helps a lot the GM squads against melee squads.

Maybe because it's exclusive of the Inquisitor? Because it's a bit expensive? (maybe to avoid the IG old light power cost T1 and an enemy instant powerfarm wipe in T2 which could be almost a GG?) Because it's situacional? Because his low range, which makes him very vulnerable against HWT with lasscannon?

What about to include the Banewolf for all commanders, in a form of a chimera upgrade?
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Lag » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 9:23 am

Dark Riku wrote:To respond to your first paragraph:
2gm accompanied by 1 sent do respectable ranged dmg.
Come T2 you can also upgrade your gm to plasmas to deal with HI.
They are also dirt cheap to reinforce.

Try bleeding an Tyranid or an Eldar in the same amount that they bleed you. :(

Spotters are meant to disrupt/dislodge.
You can stop anything ranged from being effective for a period of time with the smoke. Spotters make for example the baneblade useless for a while.
Upgraded with the incendiary round they do a lot of damage to stationery targets.

All correct, and would be great if they would be accompanied by something that can deal damage. They aren't! I was just speaking of IG's general DPS in t1 and how it transfers to t2.

Taking Eldar shes as an example doesn't really help.
With their exarch upgraded they get 50% damage reduction while FoF'ing.
Don't ask me why though since they are supposed to be glass cannons...

You don't really need a light T1 to go with a heavy T2.
You could go heavy on both.

Sure you can, and that way you pretty much never reach t3. Compare that to Orks who go double Shootas into Weirdboy into Nobz most of the time. You went against Toi and Tex in the tournament, and first game Tex didn't even get a t2 unit. Yet he could hold his ground (with a single Shoota, single Slugga and single Storm squad if I remember correctly) and then got out Nobs which eventually won them the game.

*Orks btw ;)

I keep fucking the spelling up :D

Spotters counter big shootas pretty easily.
kb/smoke --> shoot them down, close in.
kb/smoke again after first effect has worn of --> keep on pushing them of ^^

And then a Truk/Weirdboy appears and you start bleeding insanely once again, while Ork bashes power and saves up for t3 and Nobs.


^^^THESE arguments I can accept being wrong and just calling it my lack of experience. Arguments below I stand pretty firmly by.

DoM. You have to hit that thing hard and fast or otherwise try to minimize the dmg.

It goes for Zoan's as well. They are usually not alone and have a wall of meat in front of them. But once you reach Zoan's - you are rewarded with an easy kill. I'm not saying they should be as easy to kill, but they have way more health, have a KB ability which deals a shitload of damage and keeps you away from it, can't be executed as it drains heroe's mana as soon one approaches it and even when you do reach it with a sufficient army to take it down - just turn on the auto-heal. Just take the first faction wars game of IG vs Tyranids. I have reached it with a Commie which executes his own squads like mad for bonus damage, 3 fully upgraded GM squads and 2 Hotshot Storm squads. Didn't even take it's shield down for the couple of seconds of focus fire - which would take down even the most HC Hive Tyrant. So what are its weaknesses exactly? Praying to got that the guy doesn't retreat it, after it has killed most of my army with 2 kill-all-IG spells? Just taking away the life-leech ability would solve everything, while it is still a very powerful mass-carnage unit.

It has vehicle armour because otherwise T1 stuff would take it down like it is nothing. You rather have it go down to flamers? Or anything that melees it?
It's not that easy to deal with, you need hard or some light av.

To be fair I'm only upset with the Manticore killing my fairly expensive investment in one volley while I can't move out of the way. Is there any possible way to make it more resistant to Manticores, like the Power farm buildings were made to be? I remember wiping entire farms in one volley in retail (crazy imba bs if you ask me) and nowadays you need to fire at the buildings some more before you take it down.
Anyway - can you see what I mean by saying that a Manti wiping your pricey vehicle turret (which obviously cannot move out of the way) in one volley is wrong?


AND ONE MORE THING. What can I do as an IG player against Ripper spam? This has just come into play with Noisy being the first I've seen do it. Now that it's out XPhial and some other players have tried it a bit and it's amazingly efficient. Four-five squads will just ignore all the IG ranged fire and move into melee to tie up everything you have and force you off if even a single Barbed Strangler Warrior appears to deal some damage. I have no idea how to deal with this efficiently without losing my power and most of my ground. Get Flamers that become useless as soon as the Rippers are down? Make two Ogryn squads? Execute Catas? Again - what if any damage dealers appear while I'm desperately trying to kill the Ripper spam?
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 12:19 pm

C'mon. Cut the bullcrap already. Ig units deal damage.

Orks: In retail maybe.
Yes let's take that 1 2v2 game as an example. -.-
Where Codex lost his hero first engagement and we both lost our scouts immediately as well. Can't take you seriously on this.

How about you manage your bleed and micro?

DoM: Can't take you serious on the DoM either.
"Once" as in last beta version? When it was lvl 4 and very OP?
I've seen DoM's go down to that kind of focused fire in 2 seconds....

LG turret: IG complaining about IG.. lol. Just don't get it vs IG.
Just like you won't enter a building vs them when they have a manti out.

Rippers: Any AoE. Hop in garrison? Plop down your own bunker? Sent stomp. Etc.

Not a big supporter of rippers and spore mines being buildable so easily on the field in retreat paths either.
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Lag » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 12:41 pm

Dark Riku wrote:How about you manage your bleed and micro?

This sounds just like me trying to explain during the olden CoH patch that Bren in Bren and Roos are op and someone telling me "not true, just place your mines well." :D

DoM: Can't take you serious on the DoM either.
"Once" as in last beta version? When it was lvl 4 and very OP?
I've seen DoM's go down to that kind of focused fire in 2 seconds....

Admittedly I haven't used execute even though I thought I did but 3 GM with Plasmas and 2 Hotshot Storms (presumably all leveled to an extent) and I spend a decent amount of time shooting at the thing which is by itself only to have it safely one click retreat. Please note that this is quite longer than 2 seconds.
http://youtu.be/r-cCdm9ktow?t=18m24s
The Lictor doesn't go down to focus fire as well, but the main difference is - Lictor isn't a long range, splash carnage, artillery unit specialized in mass destruction. It is supposed to come close and fight. What is the Doom's weakness? Tanks go down to long range AV weapons, Manti goes down to two AV volleys, arty teams can bleed, die easily on retreat and can be engaged in melee and knocked back easily.

LG turret: IG complaining about IG.. lol. Just don't get it vs IG.
Just like you won't enter a building vs them when they have a manti out.

There is no other unit in the game that gets countered so easily and surely. Can you please give me a one-click counter to the Weirdboy so I can say "well, just don't make Weirdboy against IG"?

Rippers: Any AoE. Hop in garrison? Plop down your own bunker? Sent stomp. Etc.

Not a big supporter of rippers and spore mines being buildable so easily on the field in retreat paths either.

I'll just suppose you haven't encountered what I'm talking about yet. :)
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Lag » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 1:08 pm

I know this theorycrafting will never end if we both go on, and it always ends up with no-one being wiser.
I have been playing IG exclusively for two months now (used to main Eldar first, then Orks, and then Chaos - IG's turn now) and am actively playing strategy games since Starcraft 1 came out. My 9-5 job is working as a game designer. I just thought saying how I feel about IG might somehow help with the further patching. :)
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 1:46 pm

Please note you were constantly on the move. There was a tower nearby etc etc.
DoM can't hurt vehicle armour. That's the weakness atm.
I still feel he's a little too strong at what he does though too.

Get's countered so easily?
Yes every race has a manticore immediately available to them -.-

Assume all you want...
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Raffa » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 2:05 pm

If you think IG can't do damage

Watch any cast of Toilailee as LG
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Lag » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 2:28 pm

Dark Riku wrote:Yes every race has a manticore immediately available to them -.-

Okay, I'll presume you are not ignoring the obvious point to troll me so I will try to elaborate a bit more. What other unit, when made, guarantees a 100% wipe of another unit in its first attempt to do so? If I make a Baneblade it sure as hell is not going to be taken down by a Scout squad, but the Scout can just not engage and go cap or be useful some other way. You cannot move the Turret. It dies. A bunch of resources just down the drain. Why? Because the guy has a unit. :D That's not a hard counter, it is an absolute counter.

@Raffa I am talking about the t1-t2 transition and why it is hard/risky. IG have one of the coolest t2s in the game, and t3 became a much more fun with the Kasrkins included!
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Raffa » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 2:37 pm

DJ Raffa wrote:Watch any cast of Toilailee as LG
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Lulgrim » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 3:14 pm

Lag wrote:Lord General's turret having Vehicle armor - WHY?

So that a blob of Shootas won't just gun it down in a second like they would a suppression turret - only they wouldn't even need to flank the HT. Which would also make it super vulnerable to flamers.

That being said, I've been unamused with the Manticore vs. turrets thingy since Ret beta (and I never played as - or with - LG myself). You will always autokill a Heavy Turret with 1 barrage, but at the same time IG is the only faction whose artillery can't even scratch suppression turrets. It would make seem more reasonable to me if one Storm Eagle wouldn't quite kill the HT, yet you could whittle down a suppression turret with two-three volleys if it doesn't get repaired.
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Lag » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 5:41 pm

Lulgrim wrote:
Lag wrote:Lord General's turret having Vehicle armor - WHY?

That being said, I've been unamused with the Manticore vs. turrets thingy since Ret beta (and I never played as - or with - LG myself). You will always autokill a Heavy Turret with 1 barrage, but at the same time IG is the only faction whose artillery can't even scratch suppression turrets. It would make seem more reasonable to me if one Storm Eagle wouldn't quite kill the HT, yet you could whittle down a suppression turret with two-three volleys if it doesn't get repaired.

Exactly!

@Raffa One player being able to do it doesn't make a difference. If you have a list of the best performing players in, lets say, Starcraft, and 8 of them are Zerg, with one being Protoss and one being Terran, you don't just point at the lone Terran and Protoss players and go "But look at them! It can be done!". Of course it can be done, but Zerg is obviously being the easy-mode option here.
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Kvek » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 6:24 pm

What the fuck ? Yeah the manticore can take down HT easily but HT is a lot cheaper than manti. And even if manti can't do shit against suppression other things can do. For example immolate warlock just use it on the turret and it's down even if you repair it.
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Dark Riku » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 6:29 pm

That isn't automatically true Lag. Player preference is a thing too.
Look at retail a long long time ago. Almost no nids on the leaderboards back in the day although being pretty damn OP. People just didn't like playing as them.

And who says Toil is the only one?
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Lulgrim » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 9:24 pm

Kvek wrote:even if manti can't do shit against suppression other things can do. For example immolate warlock just use it on the turret and it's down even if you repair it.

So are you suggesting we let IG build immolate warlocks or is this perhaps relevant in some other way?
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Nuclear Arbitor » Tue 30 Apr, 2013 10:01 pm

manticores and turrets was relic being lazy because all the suppression turrets shared the same armour meaning that a manti could clear out the base turrets in a single volley.
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Kvek » Wed 01 May, 2013 7:15 am

Lag said that manticores can take down heavy turrets easily but do shit about suppression. well looks like that was a stupid reply.
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Lag » Wed 01 May, 2013 9:50 am

:)
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Vinyl41 » Wed 01 May, 2013 10:26 am

i find ig kinda balanced atm sure i would change i few things here and there like catas could use less models like in retail so you dont have to worry so much agaist that pesky aoe that tends to rape catas :D or some transition problems from t1 into t2 for the sent missle luncher could add some hp or maybe a slight defense bonus
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Kvek » Wed 01 May, 2013 10:53 am

Sent doesn't need buffs/nerfs it is fine how it is
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Vinyl41 » Wed 01 May, 2013 12:00 pm

t1 sent is perfectly fine the problem is in t2 where it tends to die and painfull and fast death and it hurts especialy when you buy the not so cheap missle upgrade :/
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Kvek » Wed 01 May, 2013 12:12 pm

Yeah that's true but still it's only 20power (not sure about req) and it's a light av and a strong AoE
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Vinyl41 » Wed 01 May, 2013 12:19 pm

yep thats tru but you have to remember that with t2 most races unlock very trong ranged upgrades that tend to tear thru the sents hp im mere seconds ( you have to babysit is constantly ) the missle upgrade is one of the most cost efficient first buys you can do as ig because of the great early av you get and the anty inf factor can be usefull too
on a side note you have to rememver that the sent can be snared now too which is 1 more factor that it could use some buffs to its presence in t2
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Re: Imperial Guard Topic

Postby Codex » Wed 01 May, 2013 6:47 pm

Whereas in T1 it makes sense to put the Sentinel front and centre, in T2 you have to take a different approach. In main battle, they should be used for fire support, attacking into an exposed flank, or doing a sweeping advance maneuver if there is an advantage to be pressed (enemy tank is in trouble for example). They are still very effective skirmishers against squads that struggle to catch them.

With regards to scalability of T1 IG units, I've never found their scaling to be a problem. They do have a weakness to AOE, and Lag's mentioning the Doom of Malantai brings this into focus. I think the Doom is OP, but that is off topic.

The way I have always seen IG is that their strongest units are very strong, coupled with the fact that their T1 doesn't bleed heavily (Commissar on GM negates bleed, Cats don't bleed, HWT shouldn't bleed that much, Spotter doesn't bleed, Sentinel doesn't bleed, and additionally leaders don't bleed till last!), it becomes very unattractive to attack these units first. So unless you see the opportunity to wipe one of these squads, you generally want to attack the Ogryns, the Chimera, the stormtroopers or the manticore first, and do your best to tie up guardsmen up the upgraded T1 forces.

Thus the way that IG T1 scales is that they cease to be the primary concerns of the opponent and are free to be more fire support. GM can safely fire from the back while IG T2 runs rampant and deals the real damage. Uninterrupted GM fire is very damaging, and if kept alive lvl 4 plasmaGM are no slouches. The main problem is dealing with AOE, that is all.
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