Imperial Guard Topic

[Lag]

Theorycraft, so much theorycraft!
The problem with saying "a simple hwt can stop this" is that you are neglecting to consider that the hwt costs money, that it is not mobile, that it takes some time to setup, that it is easily engaged once the smallest mistake is made, and all this can cost you the hwt, or one of the fully upgraded Sentinels, or whatever. On the other side you have attack-move Tacs that don't bleed, attack-move Shootas that don't really bleed with the Nob leader, attack-move CSM etc... The first attack-move thing the IG get is T2.

This is basically everyone who doesn't play IG: "Just make a Manticore, two Catas, spread them, order Manti strike, ol' reliable them into Manti strike if they move..." IG before t2 = "just do 38 things in under 4 seconds and pray everything works". It gets easier when you use the LG, but still.

[Raffa]

Plague marines fire normally under suppression just like plague champ. Remember suppression increases reload time, so if the rocket is already loaded for tacs they can fire it off

[Shas'el Doran'ro]

Yea the Catachan smoke grenade request was pretty irrelevant, but I think I found a more pressing concern.
I think the Ogryn squad power cost is too expensive considering what they offer and compared to similar units of other factions.
Currently they're 450/90 same as in retail, but I think 90 power is a bit too excessive, I was thinking something about 450/70-75 to build and then maybe 75/10 or 75/12 to reinforce, instead of the 75/15 they currently cost.
Consider the prices of some of the walkers/heavy melee units of the other factions for Tier 2 and see if the power cost shouldn't be reduced.
90 power for a melee unit that can't really hold it's own against another dedicated melee squad without being properly supported isn't really worth 90 + the 30 power for the bonehead, where other melee leaders only cost about 25 power.

[Vinyl41]

ogryns are a lil bit tricky to balance they are a t2 walker substitute that wasnt rly designed for total melee dominance ogryns are a frontline combat / linebreaker unit ig t2 is in general power hungry because relic planned for ig to fast tech without much power investment - thats was just poor desing by relic in the first place
currently ogryns are underused because its just better to tech for the t3 goodies with just a chim and maybe a stormtrooper
the question now is are ogryns underperforming or maybe they dont rly suit the current ig meta - getting a fully upped ogryn is a huge investment and generaly it doesnt pay off because you can for a similar money investment get t3 and a leman
lowering their cost might be a good start still im not totaly sure what sort of buff they actually need

[Nuclear Arbitor]

eldar aren't attack move either. not really an issue. IG's biggest weakness is melee because they rely so heavily on GM, who are shit at melee.

[KanKrusha]

I agree with vinyl41 regards ogryn (and manticore) power costs. In retail the meta allowed for IG to spend very lower power in tier one then be punished for it in tier two with high power cost units. IG now spends more power in tier one so I would like to see the power costs of these two units come down a little.

Once purchased they perform fine so I think it is cost and opportunity cost that is the issue

[Ace of Swords]

And infact IG had an overpowered T1 in retail and this lead to an easy T2, IG currently doesn't bleed nor power nor energy, especially with the current state of catachans and their cost was lowered in elite aswell, if anything IG needs to keep paying for their units and adjust the catachans so they bleed as they are intended to.

Beside ogryns are fine as they are, with just a little help/wargear from ANY of the IG commanders they easily counter their counters (suppression).
Also ogryns are a line breaking unit, you dont get them just because you can, you get them when you have to brute force your opponent position, they do not generally fit the overall IG playstyle as they can put much T1 pressure and just seize territory in t2 and keep it with bunkers/manticore/chimera etc, but they have their moments to shine.

[Raffa]

IG currently doesn't bleed nor power nor energy, especially with the current state of catachans and their cost was lowered in elite aswell, if anything IG needs to keep paying for their units and adjust the catachans so they bleed as they are intended to.

Agreed. Completely.

[Dark Riku]

....
On the other side you have attack-move Tacs that don't bleed, attack-move Shootas that don't really bleed with the Nob leader, attack-move CSM etc... The first attack-move thing the IG get is T2.

.....
IG before t2 = "just do 38 things in under 4 seconds and pray everything works". It gets easier when you use the LG, but still.

What kind of bullshit is this?
I wanna see you win by only attack moving tacs that lose a model at 700hp.
38 things under 4 secs? LOL. Like "attack moving sent with gm behind"?

Don't overreact. Can't take you seriously like this.


Ogryns can't go down in cost.
They fill the same roll as walkers but can retreat back to safety.
Not mentioning the easier synergy with heroes.

[Lost Son of Nikhel]

The problem here aren't the Ogryns, but the commanders buffs.

You only have to imagine a 155 Heavy Melee squad infiltrated with the Inquisitor "Silence" ability. A 240 Heavy melee with the same speed as a F1 inmune to suppression (IIRC) charging against your army with the Lord Commisar "Inspire Determination". Or with the Lord General buffs.

[Nuclear Arbitor]

ogryns are all about hero synergy. medpacks are amazing on them and pretty cheap too. haven't used them with the other heroes but i know they were incredibly OP with bionic before it was nerfed. i also wonder if they're affected by NSF...

[Kvek]

Yes they are affected by NSF

[Lag]

Don't overreact. Can't take you seriously like this.

Nor can I take you seriously after posts like this. Try playing IG for a month and then just switch to SM or Orc for one game. Maybe then you will understand what I mean.

[Raffa]

Lag just drop it you sound ridiculous

[Codex]

I do have sympathy for you Lag, as I think IG t1 is pretty micro intensive. Sure in general it's pretty hard to lose their squads in T1 but what with sentinel importance and pathing, and repair, there is quite a lot to manage (the penalty for losing a sentinel or catachan is pretty steep). That said, I do find it strange that you bring up attack move.

Seriously, who in their right mind attack moves all over the place? I mean, that leaves so much room for optimsation and I'm pretty sure leaning on attack move too much just causes you to lose some games. E.g. if you attack move the melee with tacs and you eat a weirdboy shot. Or you attack move the shees when really you should be focus firing the jumped shuriplat.

When time, pressure and damage is so critical in this game I don't think there are that many races that you can just attack move around.

[Lulgrim]

Who attack moves at all? I don't even know how to do (I assume there is a button but I couldn't say what it looks like or what is the hotkey) it and I've played for 3 years...

As for races, when I played active I mained Spess > Luldar > IG (I think) and I don't see how IG is more micro intensive... sure you gotta fiddle with the Sent a bit but then again competent Spess play requires meticulous positioning and very careful judgment on when models are about to drop. It's just a different type of attention. Maybe if you play double Sent but it's really not "the" cookie cutter for most players anyway...

[Lag]

I do have sympathy for you Lag, as I think IG t1 is pretty micro intensive. Sure in general it's pretty hard to lose their squads in T1 but what with sentinel importance and pathing, and repair, there is quite a lot to manage (the penalty for losing a sentinel or catachan is pretty steep). That said, I do find it strange that you bring up attack move.

Seriously, who in their right mind attack moves all over the place? I mean, that leaves so much room for optimsation and I'm pretty sure leaning on attack move too much just causes you to lose some games. E.g. if you attack move the melee with tacs and you eat a weirdboy shot. Or you attack move the shees when really you should be focus firing the jumped shuriplat.

When time, pressure and damage is so critical in this game I don't think there are that many races that you can just attack move around.

I like how my "attack-moving" comment is taken literally while standing next to the "just do 38 things in under 4 seconds and pray everything works" comment. Yes, Orks and SM are just attack-move when compared to IG in t1, just like the US are attack-move when compared to Wehrmacht in CoH. It gets easier in t2 with Storms and Commander gear, but surviving t1 without investing too much is way, way riskier than some of the other races IMHO.

[Raffa]

surviving t1 without investing too much is way, way riskier than some of the other races IMHO.

That's just not true mate

[Lag]

surviving t1 without investing too much is way, way riskier than some of the other races IMHO.

That's just not true mate

It's cool for you to think that and you may be right. This is just my opinion coming from my experience - something that I already stated several times that I can accept not being the most reliable basis for claiming universal truth. I thought we were discussing?

[Codex]

I like how my "attack-moving" comment is taken literally while standing next to the "just do 38 things in under 4 seconds and pray everything works" comment. Yes, Orks and SM are just attack-move when compared to IG in t1, just like the US are attack-move when compared to Wehrmacht in CoH. It gets easier in t2 with Storms and Commander gear, but surviving t1 without investing too much is way, way riskier than some of the other races IMHO.

Lag, bear in mind that I don't know you, I don't know if you're prone to exaggeration or whatever, I can't see your face or hear your voice, so I have no idea when to take what you say literally or not. I'm sure the same is true of most of the other people in the thread. I'm not being hostile, just wanting to point that out.

But if we're talking about comparisons of races and that SM and orks are "attack-move" compared to these other races, then I'm not sure what your point is. Look at Eldar, approaching the game positionally. They aren't well suited to brute force attack-move assaults, but they're still an incredibly strong race. And Lulgrim has already said that he thinks of SM play.

[Vinyl41]

only atack-move race i know are orks - atack move your shoota blob with weirdo and this works most of the time other races require micro where is is for me on the first place closely followed by ig and the mod nids

[Lag]

I like how my "attack-moving" comment is taken literally while standing next to the "just do 38 things in under 4 seconds and pray everything works" comment. Yes, Orks and SM are just attack-move when compared to IG in t1, just like the US are attack-move when compared to Wehrmacht in CoH. It gets easier in t2 with Storms and Commander gear, but surviving t1 without investing too much is way, way riskier than some of the other races IMHO.

Lag, bear in mind that I don't know you, I don't know if you're prone to exaggeration or whatever, I can't see your face or hear your voice, so I have no idea when to take what you say literally or not. I'm sure the same is true of most of the other people in the thread. I'm not being hostile, just wanting to point that out.

But if we're talking about comparisons of races and that SM and orks are "attack-move" compared to these other races, then I'm not sure what your point is. Look at Eldar, approaching the game positionally. They aren't well suited to brute force attack-move assaults, but they're still an incredibly strong race. And Lulgrim has already said that he thinks of SM play.

Eldar are positional, yet their Shuriken sets up and suppresses in a sec (hwt takes ages and is buggy), and their well micro'd t1 engagements are rewarded with chances to inflict heavy retreat damage (Avenger nades, chasing Shees etc). I get to deal reduced ranged damage with my Guardsmen and Sentinel. On the other hand I can use IED, but in order to be able to place that on the guy's retreat path you have to get him to retreat to be able to place it behind where you guess the next engagement might be, and then you have to force him to retreat again to be able to detonate it to roll the dice for a squad wipe - all the while hoping he has no detection. Don't get me wrong, I love Catas and they are my favorite t1 unit, but if we are comparing Eldar effectiveness with IG effectiveness in t1... Now don't get me wrong - I'm once again not trying to make IG look like some poor heavily under-powered faction. Everything I am talking about are slight differences that do affect the final outcome of the game.

The first paragraph - makes sense.

[Asmon]

*pop in*

I think IG is an imba race that just needs to A-move.

*pop out*

[Eerie]

Oh wow, and IG thread : o. Suddenly I feel the urge to write something.

To begin with, there are good matchups and bad matchups, but that is more reliant on a player playstyle/preferences and a lot of bias coming from that way (yes, yes, everyone's biased one way or another). ALSO 1v1 and team games play out differently and changes made towards improving one of them might fcuk up another. But to the real point - just as Lag mentioned, IG transitions kind of poorly into t2, considering gm being a fine repairing squad and perhaps an 'ok' dps squad with commie and plasma, but that would work against heavy armor only. Sentinel is probably the only thing keeping ig alive in t1, gaining missles in t2, cool, but they tend to work well against other blobby-ish races/factions, perhaps a setup team spam. The mentioned av works 'ok', but is not nearly sufficient enough to stop any transport vehicle, you need a hard av in order to do that. Chasing do not happen so often, because it's very easy to force off a retreat, with any aoe and if there's a chimera, it's gonna end up in a standoff or one side making a big mistake during an engagement. Still, I don't mind sent being as it is, just don't call it a better thing then it is in actuality. Spotters are ok, but they're only a disrupting squad, with a farily low dps, while catachans serve pretty much the same purpose, perhaps a light melee counter (very light) aswell and detection, but that's about it. What IG lacks in t1 is a thing to power through a medicore/strong ranged blob, because melee (except for jumping squads perhaps) was never really a problem. Riku, you've mentioned that IG can go for a heavy t1 - sure, every race can, but with that poor transitioning it actaully works to it's disadvantage. The real dps and tanking possibilities, even the line-breaking comes in t2 and t3, the later - the worse, no matter what. Also, considering that IG's t2 isn't the cheapest around (hence it's strength), delaying it too much is just asking for getting stomped. This is a dilema every ig player has to face in every game. Risk getting shut down in t1 or risk getting shut down while transitioning into t2.

But the real question is - is that really imbalanced? Every race/faction has it's weaker periods during the game, the reall matter is - how can they deal with then and aren't they getting shut down too hard during them. Just as my personal opinion it all comes down to how t1 was handled, did the ig player overmake squads/overbled, did the power got shut down? Most of those things (well, in most cases) can be dealt with. The only small or slight disadvantages ig has (remember, that's my opinon) are matchups against chaos and eldar (perhaps space marines in late game), but first one I think applied for a long time, while second plays out around the fact, that ig doesn't have the mobility and cannot split to deal with eldar map control well.

[Commissar Yarrick]

Exactly! Ig is weak when divided and to have any chance to fight the enemy it needs to run in one massive wall of meat which is slow and easily maneuvered. + this is IG's both strength but also weakness.

[crazyman64335]

After playing around a bit with the inquisitor's different armor options, i feel her last armor (the one available in t3) is in dire need of a buff or a price reduction. Sure it's a fairly good sized AOE stun, with a decent amount of damage. But for 200 req and 50 power? That seems to be quite outrageous considering it doesn't add much health compared to something like the Warboss's T3 armor. Just something i thought i would throw out.

[Asmon]

This ability is without a doubt the most powerful ever, period.

[KanKrusha]

(Following is mostly for 3v3s but does count for 1v1 too as the Inquisitor's other armors pay off better in tier 3 1v1 than they do in tier 3 3v3)

I think the Purgatus armour is great and doesn't need a buff, but in terms of cost I can see where crazyman is coming from.

For the inquisitor it can be hard to stop bleed in tier 3 and the Purgatus Armour really helps that. It is common to be in a situation in 3v3 where you desperately need both a tank and the Purgatus armour and it is impossible to get resources for both. This is because Inquisitor lacks the abilities of the commisar lord and lord general to avoid bleed. She has the advantage in tier one instead, but that advantage has been blunted because tier one for IG is now more expensive in power and has less early aggressive potential (sentinel push is delayed till the upgrade by which time opposing player has powerful enough units to fend it off).

I think there is a case for looking at the tier 2 economy of IG, in light of the changes that have been made to tier one in the mod, at least from the inquisitor's point of view, so that she goes into tier 3 with slightly more resources but I think the armor is probably priced about right because it is hugely powerful.

Most importantly, i think the price is probably right for 1v1. Rush to Purgatus to support your ogryns would really screw the opponent over.

[Torpid]

As an inquisitor player myself I find rarely find myself ever going to t3. Occasionally against a space marine or an ork who I've managed to bleed exceptionally a leman can be immensely useful, but generally as the inquisitor and as IG the game ought to have ended before that point, or you simply don't need t3.

Lemans have very limited use against the great AV of chaos, and the inevitable wraithguard of eldar. If you want a leman then you also can't have got a chimera otherwise they already have the counters to the leman (unless you kill them afterwards of course).

Because of the inferno pistol any combination of the manticore/sentinels/guardsmen/spotters/ogryns/stortroopers can deal with any threat by selecting about four of these unit types. What I'm trying to say is that there are just no real reasons for a inquisitor to go t3 mainly due to how expensive her t2 has to be in order to makeup for the fact that she herself kind of sucks in t2 compared to the general and commissar (just less synergy and support).

In conclusion then it would seem that purgatus is too expensive. IG already has to pay a damn lot for it's t2 and bleed hurts the inquisitor badly as kan has noted. I just find it hard to justify spending 200/50 on such an armour when the likelihood is that I already have one of her other armours since they are both so fantastic in 1v1. I think a better price would be 150/45

[Ace of Swords]

In conclusion then it would seem that purgatus is too expensive. IG already has to pay a damn lot for it's t2 and bleed hurts the inquisitor badly as kan has noted.

Everyone but orks and nids have to invest most of their T2 resources in upgrades, that said, purgatus is an extremely powerful wargear that matches it's cost, a cost reduction would result in a stun and damage reduction much likely it happened to Providence.