2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Issues dealing with gameplay balance.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby newtonia » Sat 19 May, 2018 4:11 am

And its also lore-friendly.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Torpid » Sat 19 May, 2018 4:59 am

LordKira007 wrote:Chaos Space Marine Squad:
Upkeep cost increased from 1.92 to 2.55.
Can someone tell me what is the thinking behind this ? :(


Standardisation.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sat 19 May, 2018 12:41 pm

Should heavy bolter be with 80DPS and 49 range on LR Phobos? This is not assault cannon.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Max_Damage » Wed 23 May, 2018 9:08 am

Chaos lord nerf with range going from 38 to 26 is a big no no. Terminator force commander has 38 range. Terminators have 38 range. Thats because they all have storm bolters. And CL also has one. If you can remake a model and issue the hero some other weapon which should have 26 range it would be fine. But there are no such weapons in the game. Otherwise if it has a storm bolter then it should have 38 range.

Same with the warboss and its shoota. Its big enough and should have full range because it is not a pistol.

With the sorcerer changes. Doombolt needs a raw damage increase and nothing else would buff it appropriately imo. It is a damage spell after all. The problem with it is that half of the time it misfires, the other half it hits terrain. It needs 30-40% damage increase to compensate for all these occasions.

Curse of Tzeench lowering enemy energy? Its too weak really. You are going to buy wargears to drain energy? Which other hero is going to do that? maybe make it akin to the Farseer's Doom with a targeted damage increase debuff.

The one unit that is left really useless is the noise marines. They do not scale into even the midgame. They dont have even 20% melee resistance. There is no seargeant and no upgrades worth considering. it would be great if we could scale the NM into T2/T3 with melee resistance, some seargeant and default weapon improvements.

Terminator autocannon still has 50% moving accuracy. Assault cannon has 100%.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Swift » Wed 23 May, 2018 2:07 pm

Max_Damage wrote:Chaos lord nerf with range going from 38 to 26 is a big no no. Terminator force commander has 38 range. Terminators have 38 range. Thats because they all have storm bolters. And CL also has one. If you can remake a model and issue the hero some other weapon which should have 26 range it would be fine. But there are no such weapons in the game. Otherwise if it has a storm bolter then it should have 38 range.

Same with the warboss and its shoota. Its big enough and should have full range because it is not a pistol.

With the sorcerer changes. Doombolt needs a raw damage increase and nothing else would buff it appropriately imo. It is a damage spell after all. The problem with it is that half of the time it misfires, the other half it hits terrain. It needs 30-40% damage increase to compensate for all these occasions.

Curse of Tzeench lowering enemy energy? Its too weak really. You are going to buy wargears to drain energy? Which other hero is going to do that? maybe make it akin to the Farseer's Doom with a targeted damage increase debuff.

The one unit that is left really useless is the noise marines. They do not scale into even the midgame. They dont have even 20% melee resistance. There is no seargeant and no upgrades worth considering. it would be great if we could scale the NM into T2/T3 with melee resistance, some seargeant and default weapon improvements.

Terminator autocannon still has 50% moving accuracy. Assault cannon has 100%.

I'll address each of these individually.

Chaos Lord's bolter nerf is in line with all commander sidearms being standardised to range 26. the fact it is a combi bolter does not mean it should be range 38, because the CL shouldn't really have an advantage at range for such a prolific melee hero. Comparing him with terminators again falls into this fallacy. Yes he's "in" terminator armour, but that doesn't put a commander on the same stage as actual tier three terminators. Just because they look similar doesn't mean they play the same as the CL is something you start with for free, and Terminators are something you pay for late game (and are very expensive). There are a million different versions or boltguns and storm/combi bolters in the game and standardising them is not the route to take.

Warboss and shoota, again, this is a standardisation. No reason such a strong melee commander should be able to compete at range with other ranged units or be able to inflict damage from such a long distance. It being "big" means very little.

Doombolts hitting tacs in cover does about half health to them and that's plenty enough. They can bug out a little on odd terrian but that's a map issue not a doombolt issue. if you're on point with them you'll force off any approaching sluggas, banshees, tacs hiding in cover, anything essentially. No change needed.

Curse of Tzeentch's energy drain could actually have a double use. The Warlock's merciless witchblade drains energy and is good at stripping shields and denying second ASM jumps. Use curse in this manner and you can strip a Force Commander's shield to almost nil or deny his ASM a second jump on your Havocs or to escape. The utility of Curse of tzeentch is actually getting increased while avoiding the cheese of blowing stuff up on retreat that the player cannot control.

Noise marines have the best flamer in the game and a very healthy platform from which to fire it. Combine with any kind of worship and you have a really fast/sneaky/tough ranged weapon denial unit. Their ability to bash is unparalleled, and if you think that the blastmaster is not a worthy upgrade then you need to spend more time using it.

The Chaos terminator Autocannon has an AoE and does anti-everything damage. The Assault cannon needs 100% accuracy because it does single target damage and resets its firing animation every time it kills a model, meaning its bursts are rarely effective against large groups of infantry as it would have to constantly change target. The autocannon however will hit most things with its AoE whatever happens and its double role as AV on a really beefy platform makes it an invaluable weapon for Chaos termies that regular ones wish they could get.

All in all, this sounds like a strategy issue, so get out there and play some more games to immerse yourself in the faction some more.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Rostam » Thu 24 May, 2018 12:04 am

@Atlas
can u nerf melee GK dread. it has 1600 hp in T2
I mean mok dread has 1200 hp with the upgrade
melee gk dread is vdn in t2


how to make gk better : 1-remove operatives 2-bring interceptors back in t1 3-make melee dread 1300 hp and remove maelstrom from flamer dread (also remove twin bolters from plasma dread give it the melee arm instead) 4-give purgation lascanon instead of psilencer (with thankfully they are getting lasc this patch) and give spilencer purg only 1 model (other 2 with storm bolters) and plasma damage on the spilencer model
Last edited by Rostam on Fri 25 May, 2018 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby LOCALgHOST » Thu 24 May, 2018 10:55 am

Rostam wrote:@Atlas
can u nerf melee GK dread. it has 1600 hp in T2
I mean mok dread has 1200 hp with the upgrade
melee gk dread is vdn in t2


how to make gk better : 1-remove operatives 2-bring interceptors back in t1 3-make melee dread 1300 hp and remove maelstrom from flamer dread 4-give purgation lascanon instead of psilencer (with thankfully they are getting lasc this patch) and give spilencer purg only 1 model (other 2 with storm bolters) and plasma damage on the spilencer model


operatives are fine, see how Sheitan uses them.
interceptors t1? seriously?
dread maybe need some nerf, too fat now imo
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby SarDauk » Thu 24 May, 2018 12:39 pm

Rostam wrote: plasma damage on the spilencer model


this would make the purgation OP vs HI/SHI while doing less damage to regular infantry, not sure GK needs anti-termies :/
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Black Relic » Fri 25 May, 2018 5:25 am

If the dread is t2 with that much HP yea it needs a nerf. Give it 1200 HP and the melee upgrade automatically. Make maelstrom and more hp into a Dark Age of Technology upgrade.

But what exactly are people complaining about for OM? is it tanks? Or just them in t1?
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Swift » Fri 25 May, 2018 12:17 pm

Black Relic wrote:If the dread is t2 with that much HP yea it needs a nerf. Give it 1200 HP and the melee upgrade automatically. Make maelstrom and more hp into a Dark Age of Technology upgrade.

But what exactly are people complaining about for OM? is it tanks? Or just them in t1?

The GK melee dread is more expensive than the SM dread and on par for cost with the Chaos one. It doesn't have bloodrage or worship to support it, nor is its synergy with the BC anywhere near what it is with the Sorceror. The hp might be a bit large considering what ti is but remember GK have little in the way of AV so the Dread can at least fulfil the role of damage sponging whilst chasing off any nearby vehicles.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Rostam » Fri 25 May, 2018 1:08 pm

Swift wrote:The GK melee dread is more expensive than the SM dread and on par for cost with the Chaos one. It doesn't have bloodrage or worship to support it, nor is its synergy with the BC anywhere near what it is with the Sorceror. The hp might be a bit large considering what ti is but remember GK have little in the way of AV so the Dread can at least fulfil the role of damage sponging whilst chasing off any nearby vehicles.


@swift
Facepalm
1-GK dread has emperor's fist (imo better than BloodRage)
2-SM dread doesnt have support neither but has the DAOT upgrade in T3
3-Making GK dread Melee by default would solve so many problems, the point is head balances dont want it to be like SM so called "Unique "-__-
so they wont,but if they wanna fix it they should make flamer,multimelta,PlasmaCanon an upgrade and start GK dread in melee (Also remove that bolter on the plasma canon)
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Rostam » Fri 25 May, 2018 1:24 pm

@Atlas
@Elite Mod Head Balance
Put Boss in charge of the Changes for OM,Tyranids (He would fix both of these races)
Put Freeman for IG,Chaos
Put the Rest of the balance for vote amongst the top 10 balancers in elite
This 1 man head balance for elite doesnt work

@Atlas
I have told you many times how to fix OM,trust me it will work :S
it is simple, but no body listens,at least talk to boss he would tell u the same thing
1-Bring Interceptors T1
2-Remove operatives (or give detection to IST sarge instead,operatives is just defective unit)
3-Give Purg lascanon (Nicely done this patch)
4-Make GK dread 1200 hp default melee dread with (MM,PC,Flamer upgreades, remove twin bolters from plasma dread)
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Swift » Fri 25 May, 2018 1:29 pm

Rostam wrote:@swift
Facepalm


Don't facepalm me, you should know this by now.

Rostam wrote:1-GK dread has emperor's fist (imo better than BloodRage)


You're going to tell me Emperor's Fist is better than Bloodrage? The bias is strong with this one. Damage buff plus damage resistance and increased speed and you'd trade that for an AoE stun that can be retreated out of? Bloodrage makes the Kdread solo just about anything then all you need to do is warp/khorne worship it out of trouble.

Rostam wrote:2-SM dread doesnt have support neither but has the DAOT upgrade in T3

I don't see your point, you pay for Dark Age of Tech in tier 3 for a flat HP increase, the GK dread's upgrade grants it more HP and a different weapon, the HP increase being there to give it a little more staying power. You're also undervaluaing Scouts and their utility that ISTs don't quite have. Yes they're better general combat units but they don't have the same speed and shotgun blast/wipey nade that Scouts have, plus SM have things like Techmarine and blessings as well as telehammer FC and ASM to get those nasty setup teams.

Rostam wrote:3-Making GK dread Melee by default would solve so many problems, the point is head balances dont want it to be like SM so called "Unique "-__-
so they wont,but if they wanna fix it they should make flamer,multimelta,PlasmaCanon an upgrade and start GK dread in melee (Also remove that bolter on the plasma canon)

Why? GK is the faction of flavour, homogenising it any more is just going to turn it into a shit SM rip off. Yeah people complain about them a lot but if they were too similar no one would play them, I'd rather have some interesting alternative. It's not a perfect solution, it might not even be a great one, but GK were always an experiment and this argument may be moot in a couple of patches anyway.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby PianoMan » Fri 25 May, 2018 1:51 pm

why are you comparing bloodrage and fist, they're different, you can't just say one is better than the other lmao
letting boss balance nids and om must be a fucking joke since he's a raging biased manchild

could people please stop talking about balancing a race they have no understanding of xd
maybe if you stopped playing against 3v3 players that play gk as if he was a retarded chaos lord you'd change your opinion xd
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Cyris » Fri 25 May, 2018 5:07 pm

The OM melee dread is fine. It's niche, doesn't do anything fancy and isn't an upgrade I ever get willingly. Which is fine.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Ayy Eye » Fri 25 May, 2018 6:23 pm

Ghe dread having to be that fat is to make up for the lack of lascannon or hard av to discourage your opponent from just doing an amove with their melee dreads into your army and soloing it.

Giving it melee from start would make it arguably stronger since atm you have to buy a weapon upgrade for it 90% of the time so you're not stuck with a flamer v t2 hi and vehicles meaning it costs significantly more than other dreads most of the time you get it.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Crewfinity » Fri 25 May, 2018 7:17 pm

Swift wrote:Chaos Lord's bolter nerf is in line with all commander sidearms being standardised to range 26. the fact it is a combi bolter does not mean it should be range 38, because the CL shouldn't really have an advantage at range for such a prolific melee hero. Comparing him with terminators again falls into this fallacy. Yes he's "in" terminator armour, but that doesn't put a commander on the same stage as actual tier three terminators. Just because they look similar doesn't mean they play the same as the CL is something you start with for free, and Terminators are something you pay for late game (and are very expensive). There are a million different versions or boltguns and storm/combi bolters in the game and standardising them is not the route to take.

Warboss and shoota, again, this is a standardisation. No reason such a strong melee commander should be able to compete at range with other ranged units or be able to inflict damage from such a long distance. It being "big" means very little.



I always thought the longer sidearm ranges for BC, CL, and WB was a tradeoff for them not being able to take cover. They are not as good at waiting for enemies to come to them, so they are a bit better at chasing enemies instead. They're already fat and slow and easy to kite, nerfing their sidearm ranges is unneccessary imo.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby LordKira007 » Fri 25 May, 2018 10:39 pm

Crewfinity wrote:
Swift wrote:Chaos Lord's bolter nerf is in line with all commander sidearms being standardised to range 26. the fact it is a combi bolter does not mean it should be range 38, because the CL shouldn't really have an advantage at range for such a prolific melee hero. Comparing him with terminators again falls into this fallacy. Yes he's "in" terminator armour, but that doesn't put a commander on the same stage as actual tier three terminators. Just because they look similar doesn't mean they play the same as the CL is something you start with for free, and Terminators are something you pay for late game (and are very expensive). There are a million different versions or boltguns and storm/combi bolters in the game and standardising them is not the route to take.

Warboss and shoota, again, this is a standardisation. No reason such a strong melee commander should be able to compete at range with other ranged units or be able to inflict damage from such a long distance. It being "big" means very little.



I always thought the longer sidearm ranges for BC, CL, and WB was a tradeoff for them not being able to take cover. They are not as good at waiting for enemies to come to them, so they are a bit better at chasing enemies instead. They're already fat and slow and easy to kite, nerfing their sidearm ranges is unneccessary imo.

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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Black Relic » Fri 25 May, 2018 11:27 pm

Is the melee dread giving a large HP pool to compensate for something that the OM lack? If so that needs to be focused on. Because i don't think it is good balance to give something as simple as a large HP pool and call that unique. That is just as mentioned before, compensation for a lack of potential in a certain area for OM that is in dire need of attention.

So again. What is the problem with OM? Is it the lack of AV and complete reliance on the VA?
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Torpid » Sat 26 May, 2018 5:08 am

Crewfinity wrote:I always thought the longer sidearm ranges for BC, CL, and WB was a tradeoff for them not being able to take cover. They are not as good at waiting for enemies to come to them, so they are a bit better at chasing enemies instead. They're already fat and slow and easy to kite, nerfing their sidearm ranges is unneccessary imo.


I agree with this. I don't find the default CL/WB sidearms OP. And indeed there's enough distinction there that I don't really think this is a simple case of standardisation.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Torpid » Sat 26 May, 2018 7:36 am

Black Relic wrote:Is the melee dread giving a large HP pool to compensate for something that the OM lack? If so that needs to be focused on. Because i don't think it is good balance to give something as simple as a large HP pool and call that unique. That is just as mentioned before, compensation for a lack of potential in a certain area for OM that is in dire need of attention.

So again. What is the problem with OM? Is it the lack of AV and complete reliance on the VA?


Their T2 AV sources are as follows:

Hard AV:
Las-rhino, dreadnought, psilencer purgation, vindicare.

Soft AV:
Operative's melta, purifier's 0.3x modifier vs vehicles.

The problem is that compositionally your strike squad from T1 becomes rather 'meh' in T2 and without upgrades your IST likewise. You generally need to get the justicar on SS, the aco and often plasma guns on the IST. Add in a 2nd purgation squad, a vindicare and then your dreadnought, the OM dread tends to come out way later than other race's. If the OM is getting that out before other race's t2 vehicle choices they did a splendid job in T2 and are rewarded with a gen bash. In general the OM dread is better than every other race's dreads. It's not a matter of the melee dread in particular being really good. Having the best dreads is part of their t2 way of working.

Problem with OM is that basically all the hard AV options are not as good as your standard lascannon style SUT. And they all cost loads of req. Getting two of them is meh vs infantry and your overall compositions but is super super req heavy.

It having more hp is pretty important because OM's lack of traditional set-up-teams and general orky nature makes them not very good at statically guarding a position using a dreadnought to counter-initiate like chaos or SM. And so when they push the commitment is bigger. In the way that it is easier to wipe a DD after a failed ork push than a BC after a failed chaos push.

TL;DR to support a dread in T2 as OM costs you more power than most other races in order to have a valid combat composition. In addition the melee dread is an upgrade which in total makes it quite the expensive unit and OM in general tend to have stronger than average dreadnought variants as a whole.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sat 26 May, 2018 2:00 pm

maybe bring APA for apothecary back on T1?
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Black Relic » Sat 26 May, 2018 2:53 pm

then having a lascannon on purgation would solve some of these problems. Seems like their form of AV has always been a difficult question to answer. Because it has been an issue for a very long time, and from i remember since they were ever put into the mod.

If lascannon is going to be put on the lascannon it will make this hard since the animations of the lascannon will not work on the purgation. So they will have to use space marine animations. I dont believe the pslincer will work with a space marine animation set.

With that said, what are our options? I think, now dont hate me, that we could think about removing the melta bomb from operatives and replacing operatives shotguns with melta guns via an upgrade. That is up for debate however.

This brings up another issue though, the AV being very req heavy as torpid said. And the operatives will not help that situation much. So i suggest giving , again dont hate me, IST serg a krak grenade. However his grenade mainly is used for the slow. It should be a minor slow and not focused on damage, but it will help the unit scale slightly and wont hurt OM too much in terms of req bleed unless they are focused on which is something i can definitely see happening. Therefore when IST with their serg and acolyte hit t2, they automatically reinforce 2 at a time. That should help negate the req player a OM player would suffer if the IST are continually focused down. But only do those things with IST if they are given the krak grenade.

So strike squad has been a squad that has pissed me off for a long time. Reason? Their special USED to be bonkers and it toke 2 years for people to finally fix their dumb 360 special attack. Now from what i can tell is that SS have a weird design that force them to chose between a shooty path of a punching in the face path. Now i can respect this if both were balanced in a way you could have both.

What i think should happen is the following. Nemesis Focus increases their melee skill and adds a special attack to the squad, NO CHARGE DAMN IT. Lower its cost from 60/15 to 100 requisition period. It's a luxury purchase and should stay that way. The req cost will put them back into a semi-counter initiation unit that they used to be. Increase the SS HP form 990 to 1035 out of the gate. 15 HP more per model. My reason? They would bleed slightly less in t1 but the other reason is that i dont not think they should get a HP increase from nemesis focus in my idea, would be too OP. Change psybolt ammunition to add an active ability that increase their damage vs infantry by 30%, vs HI 15%, vs SHI 5% and have it passively lower their reload and cooldown time which would allow them to become a better back line for the OM that can still hold their own vs a widdled down melee squad (which imo is fine). That psybolt ammunition can keep it current cost but gets moved to t2. So the SS get both upgrades but they do become a resource sink if a player wants all the upgrades. Energy burst come out of the gate from the Justicar when he is purchased. However its range get lowered to 15. This will allow the squad to kite a melee squad decently well and some what become an anti-melee squad with support similar to how scouts work.

But this is just throwing idea out there.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby PianoMan » Sat 26 May, 2018 3:35 pm

black relic whats ur in game name
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby SarDauk » Sat 26 May, 2018 6:07 pm

Btw when can we expect to see the 2.8 released ? So we can judge the new OM and not the old one
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Ayy Eye » Sat 26 May, 2018 11:38 pm

SarDauk wrote:Btw when can we expect to see the 2.8 released ? So we can judge the new OM and not the old one


It'll make no difference, people will still complain "REEEEE OPOPOPOP REMOVE REEEEE" like the brain dead sheep they are.
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby LOCALgHOST » Sun 27 May, 2018 1:17 am

cmon gimme WW upgrade on T3 and power axe on T1 :)

also we discuss plasma devs ability to change firing
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Black Relic » Sun 27 May, 2018 1:22 am

I think OM are in a decent spot actually, but it more of them being underpowered?? in some aspects so another unit has its stats increased to "fill in the blanks." Similar to how Britonnia (butchered that) were when Total War Warhammer was released. pretty OP units because they didn't have a complete roster, when they did everything was brought into line. Its fine if that is the case with OM but these issue will have to eventually be looked into.

As for things being OP. Rangers keen sight. fuck that.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54
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Rostam
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Rostam » Sun 27 May, 2018 4:54 am

I think at this point we better wait for (2.8 beta) before requesting balance stuff
Atlas has his hands full as it is
Tending to our unending requests is gonna make it even harder and remember he is doing this solo
“Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself.” Leon Tolstoy
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Black Relic
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Re: 2.8 Non-Consensus Thread (Part 2 of 2)

Postby Black Relic » Sun 27 May, 2018 6:35 am

The send me the final list of changes and the mod file for cope's tool box so i can put them in. Then ill send it to Atlas to run the test stuff. im free on Sundays. Will take maybe about 2 hours at the most to do the changes.
"...With every strike of his sword, with every word of his speech, does he reaffirm the ideals of our honored master..." -From the Teachings of Roboute Guilliman as laid down in the Apocrypha of Skaros. Space Marines Codex pg. 54

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